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Post by brubacca on Jul 22, 2015 18:27:36 GMT -5
My rega has 10 filters (5 each low/high res). Could never tell a diference
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Post by sahmen on Jul 22, 2015 18:52:13 GMT -5
It all comes down to how to interpret and possibly reconcile (f they're indeed reconcilable) these two statements, which I have heard on this lounge and other audio related message boards in different formulations:
1. Different DAC chips have different sound signatures.
2. The way a DAC sounds depends less on the chip itself than the design of its surrounding circuitry.
Assuming that different DAC chips can indeed have different sound signatures, are the differences produced by implementation of the surrounding circuitries sufficient to annul or neutralize those sound signatures? Are the differences in the design/implementation of the circuitries of each different DAC chip significant to the point where they can make the two different DAC chips sound the same?
Regarding the first statement (DAC chips have different sound signatures), I refer to some of the debates about how the sabre DAC of, say, the Oppo 105, stacks up against the Analog Devices AD 1955 of the DC-1. I have myself asked how the sq of the AD 1955 (in the DC-1) stacks up against the Burr Brown DACs of the XMC-1, and determined, after listening to both, that there are subtle differences between the two sound signatures, even though I can't definitively say which sound signature is "better."
First of all, are the differences that people might hear between these alleged sound signatures of the three DACS (the sabre, the AD 1955, and the Burr Brown DACs) "real" or can it be proven conclusively that they are unreal "phantoms" or figments of delusional "audiophile" imaginations, if not "placebo effects or products of different manifestations of "confirmation bias"?
Are these issues ever resolvable in a way we can all agree upon?
Why am I asking all these questions?:
I already have two DACs which resemble the BIG EGO in their construction and design, namely, the Geek Out 1000, and the Geek Out V2 + (well, this v2+ is yet to be delivered, but I purchased it because it can be used on the go with mobile devices)...
My interest in the BIG EGO lies in the fact that it has a DAC chip (TI Burr Brown DAC), that is different from those of the two Geek Out models (Sabre DACs). My hope is that the EMO BIG Ego might give me a different sound signature that is at least favorably comparable to those of the two Geek Out models (if not better than them). I hope to compare all three models in the spirit of sheer experimentation, involving relatively inexpensive devices, which all three are in my estimation. If my expectations are not met by any of them, I have the option to resell.
If you have any thoughts about this, please share them, even if you think I am going nuts. Thanks.
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Post by brubacca on Jul 22, 2015 19:13:40 GMT -5
Sahmen-
As i have a geek wave incoming (some day) i'd love to hear the comparison.
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Post by sahmen on Jul 22, 2015 19:23:33 GMT -5
Sahmen- As i have a geek wave incoming (some day) i'd love to hear the comparison. Cool! I'll let you know  |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 22, 2015 21:32:31 GMT -5
I admit to being rather confused when it comes to DAC's and DAC implementation. For CD stereo 2.1 music I preferred the sound from the ERC-3 DAC to the Oppo 105 DAC, it wasn't better I simply preferred it. However the sound from both the ERC-3 and the 105 sounded better than that from the UMC-200. I didn't just prefer them, I think they actually sounded better. The 103 on the other hand sounded different to the UMC-200 but not really better, and I had no real preference.
I'm going to have some fun listening to the Big Ego DAC and its implementation.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by brutiarti on Jul 22, 2015 21:48:49 GMT -5
In my case i prefer the sound of the oppo 105 than the erc-3. I dont know if is the sabre dac, the implementation or the combination of both. I bought a big ego for my office system and will compare with the sound of the oppo. I wanted to try the small audio-gd headphone/dac with sabre implementation but at the end decided to try out the ego to change the flavor a bit and see if i like it. But i will say that i will not move the oppo out of my 2ch system anytime soon...
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Post by brutiarti on Jul 24, 2015 12:36:12 GMT -5
Did anybody received shipping confirmation for their E-gos???
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Post by brutiarti on Jul 24, 2015 12:51:52 GMT -5
Did anybody received shipping confirmation for their E-gos??? Nevermind, i just got my confirmation! Niceeeee |
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Post by sahmen on Jul 24, 2015 12:54:43 GMT -5
Did anybody received shipping confirmation for their E-gos??? Nevermind, i just got my confirmation! Niceeeee Great: Would love to hear your impressions once you receive it, if you would not mind sharing. |
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Post by brutiarti on Jul 24, 2015 13:07:06 GMT -5
I will definitely do that. I will use it with a Beyer 900DT 600ohm, a hifiman He-400 and an audio technica ath-m40x and compare with the headphone output from the oppo 105 |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 24, 2015 14:28:05 GMT -5
Keith- thinking of ordering the big ego - I use bit perfect on my iTunes and send it via hdmi to marantz etc.. Could I forgo the bit perfect and use the big ego out via optical into marantz? (Bit perfect - is not so perfect/works 40pc time - I get conflicts w AirPlay and wireless app remotes) The purpose of Bitperfect is to allow iTunes to output any PCM audio files you play at their native sample rate. This prevents the computer from ever resampling the files you play - which is generally a good thing - although how important it actually is varies. Without Bitperfect, if you set your computer to 44.1k, it will play EVERYTHING at 44.1k - so files from CDs, which really are 44.1k, will play "straight through", but 24/192 hi-def files will be downsampled to 44.1k as well. This would negate any potential benefit of buying or playing hi-res files. Likewise, if you set your computer to 192k, it will play EVERYTHING at 192k - which means that the 24/192k files now get played straight through and CD quality files get upsampled to 24/192. While upsampling files has no real benefit, it usually doesn't especially degrade the sound quality either (although, technically, the conversion process is "one more place for something to go slightly wrong"). The basic problem there is that, no matter what sample rate you pick, if you play a variety of files, at least some of them will be resampled (and resampling changes the data - at least a tiny bit - so is an audiophile "no no"). In the context of your question this all really has nothing to do with the Big Ego. The Big EGo simply takes whatever audio you send into its USB port and passes a copy along out of its optical port. The Big Ego doesn't know or care whether the audio has been resampled by your computer along the way or not - so, with or without Bitperfect - the Big Ego won't make any difference. Since you'd still be using the same data coming from the computer, and the same DACs in the Marantz receiver, you really wouldn't get any benefit from the Big Ego. (I'm assuming that Bitperfect acts the same whether you use it with an HDMI output or a USB output.) Now, this is all separate from the question of whether using Bitperfect actually has any real benefits TO YOU or not..... and that will depend on what you listen to and how. Remember that the whole point of using Bitperfect is to allow your computer to play files at different sample rates without converting them.... so.... 1) If you listen to lossy-compressed files, like the AAC files you get from the iTunes store, or a bunch of files you ripped from CDs with iTunes set to the defaults..... AAC is a lossy compression. This means that, to be blunt, the files have already been converted - using a rather nasty process where a lot of information was thrown away. Therefore, it's pretty unlikely that preventing one more conversion is going to make any difference at all - and so using Bitperfect to play AAc files is simply a waste of time and effort. (So don't worry about doing anything to avoid hurting them.) 2) If you listen to CD quality files or lossless CD rips (but not hi-res files)... Then you might as well just set your computer to 44k and leave it there. This will play 44k CD quality files without resampling them, and won't hurt any AAC files you play either. 3) If you listen to a variety of files, including those up to 24/192k... Then you still have the option of setting your computer to 24/192k. This will allow it to play 24/192k files without resampling them. It will resample any CD quality or 24/96k files you play to 24/192 however, while resampling is technically not great, resampling to a HIGHER sample rate like this is unlikely to make them sound audibly worse. Personally, if Bitperfect is giving you a headache (figuratively), the I'd go with Option 3..... just stop using it, set the default sample rate in your Mac to 24/192, and don't worry about it. (That will let you play 24/192 files at 24/192, which is good, and upsample everything else to 24/192, which won't really hurt anything. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 24, 2015 15:08:31 GMT -5
Keith, I agree that most modern DACs have the capability for sounding good, but i also find that I tend to like the sound of certain DAC chips. Maybe it isn't the chip, but i tend to like products with Wolfson and Burr Brown chips. Is it really the chips I like or the brand implementation? Don't know, don't care. Also on several occasions people including you and possibly Lonnie say that they don't like the Sabre sound. (If my failing memory serves me right). So different DAC chips can have their own sonic signature. This subject is both simpler and more complicated than most people think... let me try to sum it up... 1) Excluding some simply poor quality DACs intended for really cheap headsets and such, MOST modern DACs sound quite neutral, and so sound pretty much the same as each other. I very much doubt that you (or I) could hear the difference between a good TI/BB DAC, an Analog Devices one, or an AKM one - as long as the associated power supplies and analog circuitry were equally good. Some of our products use Analog Devices DAC chips; others (the XMC-1 and the Egos) use TI/BB DACs. (Texas Instruments/Burr Brown). All of our products are designed to sound neutral. The Ego DACs offer a choice of three digital filters, which do sound subtly different, but the difference IS subtle, and they are all pretty neutral. 2) Wolfson's higher-end DAC chips offer a choice of several different digital filters (the WM8740 has a few; the WM8741 has a choice of 21 different filters). The DAC will sound different depending on which filter you choose - and some of the choices with the Wolfsons are rather noticeably different from each other. Some vendors choose one option for you, which can account for significant differences in how that same chip sounds in different products; others give you a switch which lets you choose between several different options. (I don't know of anybody who lets you choose between the full list.) 3) Sabre DAC chips (specifically) are somewhat different than everyone else's. They have a rather distinctive sonic signature. (They emphasize high frequency details, which makes them sound as if they're boosting high frequencies, even though - by the measurements - they are not.) I tend to like the analogy of looking at your living room carpet using either a regular light bulb or a bright halogen work light. The carpet is the same, and both lights are accurate, but the halogen light will tend to emphasize both the details in the texture and any dirt that may be present. People who like Sabre DACs tend to describe them as "detailed" or "very revealing"; people who don't like them tend to describe them as "etched" or even "grainy". I personally like the way they sound with some music, but not other; Big Dan doesn't like them at all; Lonnie isn't especially fond of them either. Regardless of personal opinion, most people agree that Sabre DACs do have a rather distinctive sound and aren't totally neutral. (The amount of this coloration you hear does depend on the associated circuitry, and some vendors replace the Sabre's internal filters with their own, which can have a major effect on this.) 4) The external circuitry that goes with the DAC can have a major effect on how it sounds - both the analog circuitry and the power supply. 5) Beyond all the unintentional differences, many DAC vendors deliberately add coloration to the sound of their products for various reasons (some do it to make their DACs sound "more analog" or "more tube like"). This can be as extreme as adding a tube buffer stage to introduce significant amounts of tube distortion and coloration, or as subtle as adding a slight high-frequency roll off to make it sound "more mellow". It's kind of important to understand some of this because, for example, you might love the way a Wolfson 8741 sounds with a "low rate filter 5" but not like the way it sounds with a "high rate filter 1". Likewise, you should find out if you like the way Sabre DACs sound before you buy one - because most people either love them... or hate them. As I mentioned, all of our DACs are designed to be relatively neutral and accurate in sound. We're quite pleased with how the new Egos sound, and we've gotten lots of great feedback about them, but, for the most part, they do sound quite neutral (and so closer to the "neutral mainstream" than many other "audiophile niche" DACs.) |
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Post by brutiarti on Jul 31, 2015 11:13:48 GMT -5
As I mentioned, all of our DACs are designed to be relatively neutral and accurate in sound. We're quite pleased with how the new Egos sound, and we've gotten lots of great feedback about them, but, for the most part, they do sound quite neutral (and so closer to the "neutral mainstream" than many other "audiophile niche" DACs.) Keith, i never pulled the trigger on a DC-1 because i really like the sabre dac sound. But i just got a big ego and i love the sound, especially on headphones. Can you share your thoughts comparing the ego sound with the DC-1, specifically for a headphone set up but using a headphone amp and the DC-1 as dac only?? |
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Post by novisnick on Aug 15, 2015 20:08:42 GMT -5
As I mentioned, all of our DACs are designed to be relatively neutral and accurate in sound. We're quite pleased with how the new Egos sound, and we've gotten lots of great feedback about them, but, for the most part, they do sound quite neutral (and so closer to the "neutral mainstream" than many other "audiophile niche" DACs.) Keith, i never pulled the trigger on a DC-1 because i really like the sabre dac sound. But i just got a big ego and i love the sound, especially on headphones. Can you share your thoughts comparing the ego sound with the DC-1, specifically for a headphone set up but using a headphone amp and the DC-1 as dac only?? Has this question been answered? If so, where? Thanks |
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Post by brutiarti on Aug 15, 2015 21:40:05 GMT -5
Keith, i never pulled the trigger on a DC-1 because i really like the sabre dac sound. But i just got a big ego and i love the sound, especially on headphones. Can you share your thoughts comparing the ego sound with the DC-1, specifically for a headphone set up but using a headphone amp and the DC-1 as dac only?? Has this question been answered? If so, where? Thanks No answer yet  |
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Post by Gary Cook on Aug 15, 2015 22:35:09 GMT -5
i really like the sabre dac sound. But i just got a big ego and i love the sound I'm not answering on Keith's behalf, but I'm intrigued, Sabre DAC's to me have a unique sound, one that I personally don't like. To my ears my BigEgo sounds nothing like any Sabre DAC application that I have ever heard (not that I have heard every single one). An example perhaps, the alarm bells at the beginning of Time (DSOM) just never sound "right" to me when using a Sabre DAC, which is not the case with the BigEgo. Cheers Gary |
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Post by brutiarti on Aug 16, 2015 0:16:29 GMT -5
i really like the sabre dac sound. But i just got a big ego and i love the sound I'm not answering on Keith's behalf, but I'm intrigued, Sabre DAC's to me have a unique sound, one that I personally don't like. To my ears my BigEgo sounds nothing like any Sabre DAC application that I have ever heard (not that I have heard every single one). An example perhaps, the alarm bells at the beginning of Time (DSOM) just never sound "right" to me when using a Sabre DAC, which is not the case with the BigEgo. Cheers Gary For my 2ch speaker system the sabre dac in the oppo sounds the best to me but it can be a little hot in my headphones system. The ego shines with headphones so i wonder if the dc-1 will be similar so i can add one to my headphone setup. (I only use the ego in my office pc, and not planning addin a pc there only spinning cds) |
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Post by Gary Cook on Aug 16, 2015 18:54:53 GMT -5
I'm not answering on Keith's behalf, but I'm intrigued, Sabre DAC's to me have a unique sound, one that I personally don't like. To my ears my BigEgo sounds nothing like any Sabre DAC application that I have ever heard (not that I have heard every single one). An example perhaps, the alarm bells at the beginning of Time (DSOM) just never sound "right" to me when using a Sabre DAC, which is not the case with the BigEgo. For my 2ch speaker system the sabre dac in the oppo sounds the best to me but it can be a little hot in my headphones system. The ego shines with headphones so i wonder if the dc-1 will be similar so i can add one to my headphone setup. (I only use the ego in my office pc, and not planning addin a pc there only spinning cds) I think Keith summed it up pretty well; Excluding some simply poor quality DACs intended for really cheap headsets and such, MOST modern DACs sound quite neutral, and so sound pretty much the same as each other. I very much doubt that you (or I) could hear the difference between a good TI/BB DAC, an Analog Devices one, or an AKM one - as long as the associated power supplies and analog circuitry were equally good. Some of our products use Analog Devices DAC chips; others (the XMC-1 and the Egos) use TI/BB DACs. (Texas Instruments/Burr Brown). All of our products are designed to sound neutral. The Ego DACs offer a choice of three digital filters, which do sound subtly different, but the difference IS subtle, and they are all pretty neutral. I suspect that as you like the Ego's neutral sound with your headphones then you'll probably like the DC-1's neutral sound with your headphones. To my ears the Sabre DAC implementations that I have heard aren't neutral, so I suspect that their high frequency "properties" suite your speakers but not your headphones. Cheers Gary |
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