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Post by orthikon on May 29, 2015 12:43:52 GMT -5
I cannot find a definitive answer in my searches.
I am looking for a fully balanced pre-amp to resolve my tweeter hiss issues and have the XSP-1 in mind to add a sub to my system.
post below is copied
I am running 35 foot XLRs from pre amp to amp. My rack is to the back left corner of the room.
A - C2200 - not fully balanced
B - NFB-6 - fully balanced
C- MC402, fully balanced, estimated 27db gain
D - XPA-1 - fully balanced, 32 gain
A and D gives me the loudest tweeter hiss, audible from listening position
A and C, I have to put my ears against the tweeter to hear the noise
no noise when using B with either amp.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 12:52:22 GMT -5
yes its fully balanced differential pre-amp
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Post by Canuck_fr on May 29, 2015 12:53:00 GMT -5
XSP-1 is a pre-amp. Are you looking for a fully balanced system : That would require both a pre-amp and a powe amplifier that are fully balanced.
The XSP-1 is a fully balanced pre-amp. The XPA-1, XPR-1 are fully balanced amplifiers.
Hope this helps.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 12:54:34 GMT -5
also the XPA-1L's are balanced amps
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Post by orthikon on May 29, 2015 13:01:20 GMT -5
I forgot to add "pre" and corrected my post. Thanks. XSP-1 is a pre-amp. Are you looking for a fully balanced system : That would require both a pre-amp and a powe amplifier that are fully balanced. The XSP-1 is a fully balanced pre-amp. The XPA-1, XPR-1 are fully balanced amplifiers. Hope this helps. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 29, 2015 14:45:13 GMT -5
There's something you really need to know before you go any further down this road. A balanced COMPONENT (like an amplifier or a preamp) gains certain slight benefits in terms of lower distortion. However, the distortion on most modern components (certainly ours) is so low that this really doesn't make a very audible difference (if any). A balanced CONNECTION between components is resistant to picking up certain specific TYPES of noise. When running long wires, especially in a noisy environment, unbalanced wires tend to pick up hum - and balanced connections are almost entirely immune to this. Hiss is usually simply a characteristic of the circuitry and gain structure of a PARTICULAR component. In other words, while balanced components do have certain advantages, there's no reason to expect a balanced component to produce any less hiss than an unbalanced component, nor for a balanced connection to be a lot quieter than an unbalanced one. (Theoretically, all else being equal, a balanced version of a circuit might be a few dB quieter in terms of hiss - but the difference is very slight, and depends on the circuitry used in the components at each end. In reality, in a given component, the balance connection may actually be a few dB quieter, or a few dB less quiet, than the unbalanced connection.) Therefore, in order to minimize hiss, you need to look for quiet components - and you shouldn't assume that choosing balanced components will necessarily help. To answer your question, however, the main signal path through the XSP-1 is balanced... however, certain features (like the tone trims) operate in an unbalanced mode. Since the XPA-1 has more gain than the MC204, it will boost whatever noise is reaching it from the preamp more than the MC204 will - which makes it more critical that you use a quiet preamp with the XPA-1. The XSP-1 has a very low noise floor, and should work well with the XPA-1. I cannot find a definitive answer in my searches. I am looking for a fully balanced pre-amp to resolve my tweeter hiss issues and have the XSP-1 in mind to add a sub to my system. post below is copied I am running 35 foot XLRs from pre amp to amp. My rack is to the back left corner of the room. A - C2200 - not fully balanced B - NFB-6 - fully balanced C- MC402, fully balanced, estimated 27db gain D - XPA-1 - fully balanced, 32 gain A and D gives me the loudest tweeter hiss, audible from listening position A and C, I have to put my ears against the tweeter to hear the noise no noise when using B with either amp. |
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Post by orthikon on May 29, 2015 14:50:44 GMT -5
Thanks for the explanation Keith.
That is why I clarified if the XSP-1 is fully balanced or just having balanced connectors.
From my experience, my fully balanced NFB-1 is dead silent compared to the C2200, so I am generalizing (perhaps incorrectly) that fully balanced pre-amps are quieter than the ones that aren't, even if they have balanced connectors.
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Post by orthikon on May 29, 2015 15:10:25 GMT -5
Keith, I just need further clarification. Is the XSP-1 fully balanced (except for what you have mentioned), i.e. the left and right channels are separate? To answer your question, however, the main signal path through the XSP-1 is balanced... however, certain features (like the tone trims) operate in an unbalanced mode. |
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Post by garbulky on May 29, 2015 15:36:44 GMT -5
I don't think you know what fully balanced implies. Fully balanced does not mean dual mono which is where the right and left channels are separate with a separate power supply. Fully balanced is where two separate out of phase (inverted sort of) signals are created which cancel out at the end of the signal thereby reducing distortions picked up as it travels through the device. It requires sometimes twice the amount of equipment because it requires two signals. Now you want to note that to enjoy the benefits of fully balanced your source and every other unit in your system except for the digital data source has to be fully balanced as well. For instance just because your source has XLR outputs doesn't mean its fully balanced. Having said that, you will still benefit from the XLR connection. Maybe not audibly but at least technically  |
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Post by deltadube on May 29, 2015 16:45:29 GMT -5
There's something you really need to know before you go any further down this road. A balanced COMPONENT (like an amplifier or a preamp) gains certain slight benefits in terms of lower distortion. However, the distortion on most modern components (certainly ours) is so low that this really doesn't make a very audible difference (if any). A balanced CONNECTION between components is resistant to picking up certain specific TYPES of noise. When running long wires, especially in a noisy environment, unbalanced wires tend to pick up hum - and balanced connections are almost entirely immune to this. Hiss is usually simply a characteristic of the circuitry and gain structure of a PARTICULAR component. In other words, while balanced components do have certain advantages, there's no reason to expect a balanced component to produce any less hiss than an unbalanced component, nor for a balanced connection to be a lot quieter than an unbalanced one. (Theoretically, all else being equal, a balanced version of a circuit might be a few dB quieter in terms of hiss - but the difference is very slight, and depends on the circuitry used in the components at each end. In reality, in a given component, the balance connection may actually be a few dB quieter, or a few dB less quiet, than the unbalanced connection.) Therefore, in order to minimize hiss, you need to look for quiet components - and you shouldn't assume that choosing balanced components will necessarily help. To answer your question, however, the main signal path through the XSP-1 is balanced... however, certain features (like the tone trims) operate in an unbalanced mode. Since the XPA-1 has more gain than the MC204, it will boost whatever noise is reaching it from the preamp more than the MC204 will - which makes it more critical that you use a quiet preamp with the XPA-1. The XSP-1 has a very low noise floor, and should work well with the XPA-1. I cannot find a definitive answer in my searches. I am looking for a fully balanced pre-amp to resolve my tweeter hiss issues and have the XSP-1 in mind to add a sub to my system. post below is copied I am running 35 foot XLRs from pre amp to amp. My rack is to the back left corner of the room. A - C2200 - not fully balanced B - NFB-6 - fully balanced C- MC402, fully balanced, estimated 27db gain D - XPA-1 - fully balanced, 32 gain A and D gives me the loudest tweeter hiss, audible from listening position A and C, I have to put my ears against the tweeter to hear the noise no noise when using B with either amp. thanks for the nice write up Keith.. someone told me if you use the bass management with subs with the xsp 1 it is not balanced just wondering if that is true in the balance mode no trims.. is that true? thanks.. |
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Post by orthikon on May 29, 2015 22:23:44 GMT -5
Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but from your explanation of fully balacned, "requires sometimes twice the amount of equipment" it sounds like dual mono to me. I know that there are dual mono circuits that do not have XLR connectors. I don't think you know what fully balanced implies. Fully balanced does not mean dual mono which is where the right and left channels are separate with a separate power supply. Fully balanced is where two separate out of phase (inverted sort of) signals are created which cancel out at the end of the signal thereby reducing distortions picked up as it travels through the device. It requires sometimes twice the amount of equipment because it requires two signals. Now you want to note that to enjoy the benefits of fully balanced your source and every other unit in your system except for the digital data source has to be fully balanced as well. For instance just because your source has XLR outputs doesn't mean its fully balanced. Having said that, you will still benefit from the XLR connection. Maybe not audibly but at least technically |
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Post by vcautokid on May 30, 2015 2:14:32 GMT -5
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Post by garbulky on May 30, 2015 9:59:55 GMT -5
Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but from your explanation of fully balacned, "requires sometimes twice the amount of equipment" it sounds like dual mono to me. I know that there are dual mono circuits that do not have XLR connectors. I don't think you know what fully balanced implies. Fully balanced does not mean dual mono which is where the right and left channels are separate with a separate power supply. Fully balanced is where two separate out of phase (inverted sort of) signals are created which cancel out at the end of the signal thereby reducing distortions picked up as it travels through the device. It requires sometimes twice the amount of equipment because it requires two signals. Now you want to note that to enjoy the benefits of fully balanced your source and every other unit in your system except for the digital data source has to be fully balanced as well. For instance just because your source has XLR outputs doesn't mean its fully balanced. Having said that, you will still benefit from the XLR connection. Maybe not audibly but at least technically Here's an example. The XPA-100 as a monoblock is "dual mono" when playing stereo material. That's because you will then need to use two monoblocks. Each monoblock has its own power supply and amp section. However...it's not fully balanced. The XPA-1 is a monoblock but within it has those two out of phase signals. Thast makes it fully balanced. Looking at the circuit you will see that it has two amp blades on either side even though it is a monoblock. My guess is one amp blade does the out of phase signal. However these two signals share a power supply to get its power. If you look at ATI's balanced stereo amp it too uses a shared power supply. So it's not dual mono but it is indeed balanced. |
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Post by orthikon on May 30, 2015 10:12:07 GMT -5
What model is that so I can look it up? See that is my point, the amp might just have balanced connectors and not fully balanced which is the distinction I am trying to make.
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Post by garbulky on May 30, 2015 10:22:11 GMT -5
Okay by dual mono I meant that everything is separate. Including a separate power supply. Anyway, don't worry just trust me that fully balanced does not mean dual mono. And dual mono does not mean fully balanced For instance the XSP-1 is fully balanced. But it shares a power supply between both channels so it is not dual mono. Dual mono does not cancel the type of distortion that fully balanced cancels out. Either way, you should know that you may not hear any differences either way. Okay the amp is: www.ati-amp.com/AT2000.phpBut I was mistaken it is dual mono for the stereo amp as there are two torroidal transformers. However the same design can be used in 5 or 7 channel configuration and be fully balanced but here they share the two power supplies. Anyway the key difference is POWER SUPPLIES for dual mono. Emotiva used to make a multichannel amp that had individual power supplies per channel. Basically they jammed in a whole lot of monoblocks into a single chassis! Pretty impressive. They accepted XLR but...they were not fully balanced. Here's some more reading on the XPA-1's balanced architecture vs ati's balanced architecture www.hometheaterhifi.com/power-amplifiers/power-amplifiers-reviews/emotiva-xpa-1-gen-2-monoblock-power-amplifier-review.htmlAlso here's the emovault on the old gear. For instance the Emotiva RPA-2 was dual mono stereo power amp but not a fully balanced power amp. It is still highly sought after and usually sells out quickly when it comes up in the forum. This is the dual mono RPA-1. The RPA-2 is also dual mono and also has meters!! emovault.org/EmoVault/RPA-1.aspxThis is the "multi-mono" Emotiva mps-1 emovault.org/EmoVault/MPS-1.aspxHere is what used to be their flagship pre-amp www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_2/emotiva-rsp-1-preamplifier-rpa-1-power-amplifier-5-2007-part-1.html |
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