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Post by garbulky on Aug 13, 2015 14:44:44 GMT -5
Hi cowan! You do have analog in your system. It starts at the output of your DAC  Thinking that having the preamp and DAC in one box is going to reduce distortion or anything similar is a fallacy. A solid pre-amp (imo) is the heart of a good system. The benefits it brings to the DAC/preamp unit is the above more solid soundstage that I mentioned and improved dynamics. If the audio feels slightly "thin" lacking in explosive slam then the XSP-1 is the prescription.  Anyway, I hear you about wanting stuff that sounds nice. I think your current choices will get you a very nice sounding system if that helps. There is a sound signature difference between the XPA-1 L's and the XPR-2's. The XPR-2's sound like the good old UPA-2/UPA-1 but with more power. It's a tiny bit laid back in the treble but has a relexed ease to it. The XPA-1 L sound somewhat different but not by a huge amount. Both sound quite good. And let me mention again, they both sound better with an XSP-1 in the loop The difference between the XPA-1 L and XPA-1 is a massive power supply (more than double). Two amp blades. And 60 watts of class A. As you probably know class A eliminates a type of distortion called crossover notch distortion which is present in small quantities in every single frequency wave. The difference between an XPR-2 and the XPA-1. The XPR-2 is not fully balanced. It does not have as much class A though it does have some. The XPR-2 switches around 200 watts from Class AB to class H on its power rails - though the output is still class AB. The XPA-1's do no such thing. However the sound signature is very subtle. It's sort of a what flavor do you want thing. Is there a big difference between the two 1 and the 1 L audibly? Probably for higher power applications. They likely have a similar sound signature to each other. I haven't heard the XPA-1 but have heard the 1 L's. I think they are pretty good. But I would lean towards the larger amp for full range control of those Dalis. They would also work for the Maggies but at very loud volumes they may get near their max. |
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Post by cowanrg on Aug 13, 2015 15:51:01 GMT -5
Hi cowan! You do have analog in your system. It starts at the output of your DAC Thinking that having the preamp and DAC in one box is going to reduce distortion or anything similar is a fallacy. A solid pre-amp (imo) is the heart of a good system. The benefits it brings to the DAC/preamp unit is the above more solid soundstage that I mentioned and improved dynamics. If the audio feels slightly "thin" lacking in explosive slam then the XSP-1 is the prescription. Anyway, I hear you about wanting stuff that sounds nice. I think your current choices will get you a very nice sounding system if that helps. There is a sound signature difference between the XPA-1 L's and the XPR-2's. The XPR-2's sound like the good old UPA-2/UPA-1 but with more power. It's a tiny bit laid back in the treble but has a relexed ease to it. The XPA-1 L sound somewhat different but not by a huge amount. Both sound quite good. And let me mention again, they both sound better with an XSP-1 in the loop The difference between the XPA-1 L and XPA-1 is a massive power supply (more than double). Two amp blades. And 60 watts of class A. As you probably know class A eliminates a type of distortion called crossover notch distortion which is present in small quantities in every single frequency wave. The difference between an XPR-2 and the XPA-1. The XPR-2 is not fully balanced. It does not have as much class A though it does have some. The XPR-2 switches around 200 watts from Class AB to class H on its power rails - though the output is still class AB. The XPA-1's do no such thing. However the sound signature is very subtle. It's sort of a what flavor do you want thing. Is there a big difference between the two 1 and the 1 L audibly? Probably for higher power applications. They likely have a similar sound signature to each other. I haven't heard the XPA-1 but have heard the 1 L's. I think they are pretty good. But I would lean towards the larger amp for full range control of those Dalis. They would also work for the Maggies but at very loud volumes they may get near their max. Yes, every system has an analog section to it. However, if you start as a digital file, process it in the digital domain, then sent it to a DAC, it remains as a digital signal right until the amplification stage. Adding a pre-amp between the DAC and amplifier does very little, except adding a longer signal path. You can add a sonic signature at that point, but that's not always a good thing. I get what you're saying, but preamps really exist because people need to match a source to an amp, control volume, or use multiple inputs. |
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Post by garbulky on Aug 13, 2015 15:57:58 GMT -5
I think if that has been your experience with preamps then you will be well served with your current upgrade plan. However if you haven't used good standalone preamps and this is from theory, then I recommend an audition. Best of luck in your journey. You have some nice speakers! Let me know how it turns out and what you think. |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 13, 2015 16:09:48 GMT -5
Being able to afford something doesn't mean it will be better. I'm good friends with a dealer, so I could get them for a good price. It's between those or the 3.7, depending on what my new room looks like. But I also might keep the Helicons. Just not sure. I think the 20.1 might warrant the XRP-1, but I don't think it's really going to make a huge difference with the Helicons. They're not really difficult to drive, they just like a bit more power than I have. There is a HUGE price difference between the 3 and 20 series. Like talking Corvette (3.7) price to Ferrari (20.1) price here. And Emotiva amps are more like Mustang prices. In my opinion, if you can afford the Ferrari, racking your brain over the differences between comparably inexpensive Emotiva amps is like racking your brain over which model Mustang you should get. If you can afford the Ferrari but just want a Mustang, why screw around with the V6? Just get the top of the line V8 and be done with it. Like wise with Emotiva amps, just get the best one(s) that fits your budget, space in your rack, and wall circuitry (the XPR series recommends having dedicated 20 amp lines). If you have limited room, then go 2 channel. If 2 monoblocks will fit, then buy the biggest ones that will fit in your rack. This way no matter what speakers you get in the future, upgrading your amp won't be a restraint or a necessary upgrade. Seems simple to me. |
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Post by jackpine on Aug 13, 2015 17:10:54 GMT -5
You can find used 20.1's for less than new 3.7's. My brother tried tried Halo JC1's and JC2, Pass 250.5 and I think XP-10 and Emotiva XPA-1 gen2's and XSP-1 with his 20.1's. The best sound was with the Parasound equipment. The weak component of the group was the Pass pre. He ended up ended up keeping the Emotiva because it came really close to the Parasound for a lot less money.
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Post by djoel on Aug 13, 2015 22:46:41 GMT -5
About 5 years or so ago I owned a pair Dali Helicon 400 the original versions,along with the Center MK2, and the awesome rear on wall speakers. I ran them with Cary Mono blocks, that was 500 wpc monos and they sounded amazing!
I think they'll sound great with a pair of XPA-1L without a doubt, I would start with those and live with them for some time!
Good luck
Dan
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Post by motobman on Aug 13, 2015 23:04:48 GMT -5
...How about TWO XPA-2's ? ? ? ?
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Post by cowanrg on Aug 14, 2015 10:08:25 GMT -5
I've decided to change my original plan. I'm going to skip the miniDSP Dirac and go with a DAC Preamp. I'm looking at the NAD M51 or the Benchmark DAC2. I'll use these in the same was I was going to use the minidsp. I'll see how that goes and then replace the peachtree with an amp or amps. I'm leaning towards the XPR-2.
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Post by cowanrg on Aug 14, 2015 10:22:53 GMT -5
You can find used 20.1's for less than new 3.7's. My brother tried tried Halo JC1's and JC2, Pass 250.5 and I think XP-10 and Emotiva XPA-1 gen2's and XSP-1 with his 20.1's. The best sound was with the Parasound equipment. The weak component of the group was the Pass pre. He ended up ended up keeping the Emotiva because it came really close to the Parasound for a lot less money. This guy knows what's up. There's a pair of 20.1s on eBay right now for ~$4k, pickup only though. But they can be had on the used market for pretty cheap. My Dalis are worth around $3k used, so there's not a huge cost associated with upgrading, beyond getting more power ;-) That's interesting about the Pass. I originally came across Emotiva because everyone raved about how they sounded with Magnepans. Apparently the XPA-2 and the 1.7 is a great match for the price. A pair of XPR-2s with the 20.1s sounds like it would be pretty darn good. |
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Post by garbulky on Aug 14, 2015 12:57:06 GMT -5
The NAD m51 gets good reviews. Keep in mind it clips at 0db. However. If you want something that will outclass it you should be looking at the schiit ygdrassil. The price is almost the same. But it is a true multibit DAC versus nearly every other DAC out there which operate at 1 bit. It also has a new mathematical filter that does not approximate developed over five years with professional mathetmaticians. There is nothing like it on the market. And the closest one that can compare to its sound costs about $10 k and is also a revolutionary multi bit DAC called total DAC. The ygdrassil should outclass the benchmark dac qute well as well. There's a person who has a doctorate in electrical engineering and builds audio components and works in the industry as a living. He is on this forum and has one. DYohn However...it does need a preamp. Here's a review of it by the maker of some pretty expensive tube amps. www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-delta-sigma-kinda-sucks-just-to-get-you-to-think-about-stuff |
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Post by DYohn on Aug 14, 2015 13:38:59 GMT -5
The performance of Yggdrasil is better than any other DAC I have ever used, including some that I have owned costing more then $20K. It is genuinely game changing. Keep in mind that it was designed and built by Mike Moffatt, the person who invented the stand-alone DAC and the founder and chief designer of Theta and Theta Digital, and he says the Yggdrasil is the best digital device he has ever designed.
I have ordered a second one.
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Post by jmilton on Aug 14, 2015 15:05:11 GMT -5
The performance of Yggdrasil is better than any other DAC I have ever used, including some that I have owned costing more then $20K. It is genuinely game changing. Keep in mind that it was designed and built by Mike Moffatt, the person who invented the stand-alone DAC and the founder and chief designer of Theta and Theta Digital, and he says the Yggdrasil is the best digital device he has ever designed. I have ordered a second one. ![]() Mike Muppet, you say?  |
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Post by DYohn on Aug 14, 2015 16:17:59 GMT -5
The performance of Yggdrasil is better than any other DAC I have ever used, including some that I have owned costing more then $20K. It is genuinely game changing. Keep in mind that it was designed and built by Mike Moffatt, the person who invented the stand-alone DAC and the founder and chief designer of Theta and Theta Digital, and he says the Yggdrasil is the best digital device he has ever designed. I have ordered a second one. ![]() Mike Muppet, you say? I'll have you know that is Beaker, the loyal sidekick of Dr. Bunsen Honeydew. "MI MI MI MI!"  |
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Post by cowanrg on Aug 14, 2015 17:27:09 GMT -5
The NAD m51 gets good reviews. Keep in mind it clips at 0db. However. If you want something that will outclass it you should be looking at the schiit ygdrassil. The price is almost the same. But it is a true multibit DAC versus nearly every other DAC out there which operate at 1 bit. It also has a new mathematical filter that does not approximate developed over five years with professional mathetmaticians. There is nothing like it on the market. And the closest one that can compare to its sound costs about $10 k and is also a revolutionary multi bit DAC called total DAC. The ygdrassil should outclass the benchmark dac qute well as well. There's a person who has a doctorate in electrical engineering and builds audio components and works in the industry as a living. He is on this forum and has one. DYohn However...it does need a preamp. Here's a review of it by the maker of some pretty expensive tube amps. www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-delta-sigma-kinda-sucks-just-to-get-you-to-think-about-stuffWhat do you mean it clips at 0dB? Also, the ygdrassil seems good, I've heard some good things about it, but it doesn't have volume control or a remote for input selection, so it would require extra components. |
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Post by brutiarti on Aug 14, 2015 17:47:35 GMT -5
The 0db clipping was fixed with the latest firmware update. I had the m51 for a month, really good unit it pulled tons of detail and instrument separation. I wasn't sold in microdynamics and i couldn't justify 2k for the sound, the yggy is something special i heard..
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Post by cowanrg on Aug 14, 2015 18:07:34 GMT -5
The 0db clipping was fixed with the latest firmware update. I had the m51 for a month, really good unit it pulled tons of detail and instrument separation. I wasn't sold in microdynamics and i couldn't justify 2k for the sound, the yggy is something special i heard.. Yeah, I've read quite a bit about it. However, being in the industry for as long as I had been, I recognize marketing and I'm honestly a little turned off on the yggy due to their marketing. They're pretty heavy-handed with their comparisons and their techno-babble. I'm a project manager in electrical engineering and I understand they have a history and background in the industry, but the way they describe their product and its features sets off alarms. Also, I can't really seem to find many reviews beyond 'dudes in forums'. But I guess it's still pretty new. Now, I'm not saying that the reviews in Stereophile and other places aren't without their own issues (they tend to review products that pay for ads in the magazine...), but multiple consistent reviews from several magazines has some weight in my mind. It's one of the reasons why I'm looking at the NAD M51. A lot of people like it, it is generally well received, and there are plenty of people wanting to claim such and such beats it 'hands down'. Audio is a funny industry and in the process of replacing the Peachtree I'm reminded why I got out of high end audio to begin with, no one's ever happy with what they have and are very quick to recommend products they don't personally own, or products that aren't mainstream. It's kinda like back when everyone's sedan compared themselves to the Accord or Camry. Such and such has more power than the Accord, better options than the Camry, etc... I guess I'm the person that just wants to buy the Accord because it's apparently the reference standard that everyone's trying to beat ;-) That being said, I'm still looking and trying to nail down what my system will look like, so I can make some purchases, enjoy some music, and not worry about my equipment anymore. |
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Post by DYohn on Aug 14, 2015 18:10:36 GMT -5
The 0db clipping was fixed with the latest firmware update. I had the m51 for a month, really good unit it pulled tons of detail and instrument separation. I wasn't sold in microdynamics and i couldn't justify 2k for the sound, the yggy is something special i heard.. Yeah, I've read quite a bit about it. However, being in the industry for as long as I had been, I recognize marketing and I'm honestly a little turned off on the yggy due to their marketing. They're pretty heavy-handed with their comparisons and their techno-babble. I'm a project manager in electrical engineering and I understand they have a history and background in the industry, but the way they describe their product and its features sets off alarms. Also, I can't really seem to find many reviews beyond 'dudes in forums'. But I guess it's still pretty new. Techno-babble from Schiit? You are thinking about some other company. Schiit is the anti-techno-babble company, similar in philosophy to Emotiva. Where did you read this alleged babble? Not on the Schiit web site you didn't. |
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Post by cowanrg on Aug 14, 2015 18:20:54 GMT -5
"closed form digital filter", "Adapticlock", "Bitperfect clock management", etc.
I get that all of these things mean something, but not without significant education or explanation. I am in no way commenting on the quality of the product. When you reach the product page and you see all of that, it just sounds like marketing talk. Looking up the chips on digikey and elsewhere, it does seem they are using some nice hardware, and probably have a good product, I'm merely commenting on how its portrayed, which is generally how things go with high end audio.
I think Emotiva's product portrayal is a bit more direct.
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Post by brutiarti on Aug 14, 2015 18:24:51 GMT -5
There are really knowledgable people talking good things about the yggy. I don't think Schiit says anything techno-babble either. IMHO
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Post by bub on Aug 14, 2015 18:33:53 GMT -5
I'm using a Anedio D2 as DAC and pre. Loving it. Remote with volumn and input .
I have a xsp-1 in another system because I have to (ht bypass. )
Works very well.
I have other pre's in house but I prefer going direct with the D2 . Very transparent. Which I like
Seems like you know what you're doing.
I'm just reading along to learn.
Good luck
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Thinking that having the preamp and DAC in one box is going to reduce distortion or anything similar is a fallacy. A solid pre-amp (imo) is the heart of a good system. The benefits it brings to the DAC/preamp unit is the above more solid soundstage that I mentioned and improved dynamics. If the audio feels slightly "thin" lacking in explosive slam 
