A true audio newbie's questions about powered speakers

[praxiscat]

Hey everyone,
I'm considering grabbing some a pair of Airmotiv 5s (if they're ever back in stock) for my first ever micro - home theater set up, basically to watch Netflix and play games that I'm not playing on my PC. But, frankly, I'm of a younger generation that was only on the tail-end of the non-portable movement, and so developmentally, I have pretty much nothing in terms of audio set up understanding -- I didn't even know what a receiver was until 2 days ago, to give you an idea of the level of familiarity I'm talking about.

So here's my consternation: I don't really know how to hook up my eventual Airmotiv's up with a subwoofer. I was originally thinking of getting a receiver with a TOSlink input and passing them both through that, but nearly no receiver has pre-out left and right any more -- and the Airmotiv manual says to absolutely not use it with a receiver or amp. Furthermore, it's hard to find a cheap receiver that has RCA out; almost everything i'm seeing requires speaker wire. Ok.. So what about a DAC from my TV to my sub, and then passing the audio from the sub back up to the Airmotivs? Nope, almost all of the subs i've seen have speaker wire out.

Ok, that sounds fine for someone with audio experience, but I have pretty much none, and I think a lot of people who are deep into audio equipment underestimate how terrifying the idea of stripping wires and connecting speaker wire to that is -- it's frankly unsettling and I'm worried I'll destroy my speakers or burn down my apartment. Should I give up on powered speakers and go to passive speakers until I have a better idea of what's going on?

So I'm not really sure what to do or how to proceed. Resources about issues like this are pretty much scant except for forums, and most people assume you have a pretty high baseline of knowledge, which I absolutely don't. Does anyone have any advice?

[KeithL]

Audio 101.....

A speaker is a passive device, which accepts a relatively high-powered input, usually from the output of an amplifier of some sort.

An amplifier is a powered device, which accepts a "line level" signal, and makes it into a high-powered signal powerful enough to run a speaker.

A preamp is a device that provides controls - like a volume control, an input selector, and possibly other things like decoders and tone controls.
The output of a preamp is a line level output, and so is intended to be connected to the input of an amplifier.

And a source device is something that actually "makes" an audio signal - generally at line level.

(Line level usually means a signal of somewhere around 1V to 2V, which is intended to be sent between audio components, but cannot drive a speaker.)

If you put an amplifier and a preamp in one box, you have an "integrated amplifier".
And, if you put an amplifier, a preamp, and a tuner (radio signal source) in one box, you have a receiver.

A "powered speaker" like our Airmotivs, is simply a speaker with a built-in amplifier.
Therefore, it expects to be fed a line level source (like the output from a preamp, and NOT like the speaker output from an amplifier or receiver.)

You're getting confused because some really dreadful receivers actually use RCA connectors to connect their speakers.
In general, however, RCA connectors are used to connect line level signals, while speaker wires are used for speakers.
(If this stuff really worries you, then you should find a friend to help you do it - it's better to be safe than nervous )

Since the Airmotivs have amplifiers built in, they expect to be sent a signal from something like a preamp.
If you're setting up a whole system, then a preamp or pre/pro (preamp/processor) would be the thing to use.
If you're connecting them to your computer, then a "line level output" would be ideal, but a "headphone output" would work OK.
Whatever you connect them to should have a volume control of some sort.

Even though all receivers have speaker outputs, many also have line-level outputs.
If you had a receiver with line level outputs, or one of those old ones with pre/main jumpers, those would be what you would connect to your Airmotivs.

If you want to use a subwoofer, you usually want a thing called a crossover, which splits things up, and sends the correct frequencies to the main speakers and the sub.
If you use a pre/pro, they usually have a crossover built in - and separate outputs for your main channels and the sub.
Some computer sound cards have separate outputs for "main speakers" and a sub.

If you want to connect both to something without a crossover, like the headphone output from your computer, it won't have a crossover.
You can connect things that way, and they will work, but using a crossover is better.

If you post some more details about either what equipment you already have, or more specifically what you need, then we can come up with some more detailed advice

Aug 21, 2015 13:16:09 GMT -5 praxiscat said:

Hey everyone,
I'm considering grabbing some a pair of Airmotiv 5s (if they're ever back in stock) for my first ever micro - home theater set up, basically to watch Netflix and play games that I'm not playing on my PC. But, frankly, I'm of a younger generation that was only on the tail-end of the non-portable movement, and so developmentally, I have pretty much nothing in terms of audio set up understanding -- I didn't even know what a receiver was until 2 days ago, to give you an idea of the level of familiarity I'm talking about.

So here's my consternation: I don't really know how to hook up my eventual Airmotiv's up with a subwoofer. I was originally thinking of getting a receiver with a TOSlink input and passing them both through that, but nearly no receiver has pre-out left and right any more -- and the Airmotiv manual says to absolutely not use it with a receiver or amp. Furthermore, it's hard to find a cheap receiver that has RCA out; almost everything i'm seeing requires speaker wire. Ok.. So what about a DAC from my TV to my sub, and then passing the audio from the sub back up to the Airmotivs? Nope, almost all of the subs i've seen have speaker wire out.

Ok, that sounds fine for someone with audio experience, but I have pretty much none, and I think a lot of people who are deep into audio equipment underestimate how terrifying the idea of stripping wires and connecting speaker wire to that is -- it's frankly unsettling and I'm worried I'll destroy my speakers or burn down my apartment.

So I'm not really sure what to do or how to proceed. Resources about issues like this are pretty much scant except for forums, and most people assume you have a pretty high baseline of knowledge, which I absolutely don't. Does anyone have any advice?

[garbulky]

Hi praxis. Okay, so you want to not go the reciever route. If you get one of the Emotiva DACs (I reccomend DC-1 - buy it used here on the emporium), then both the XLR and RCA outputs on it are active. Use one pair of the outputs to the sub and one to the airmotivs. Then turn the subwoofer volume up to match with the airmotivs bass. You can also set the crossover on the subwoofer to tell it what high frequency to stop producing bass. A good notch is 80 hz with both 60 and 100 hz being possible alternatives.
This means the subwoofer you are looking at has to have both a volume (gain) knob and a crossover knob. That's pretty much it.
I reccomend the powersound audio XS 15. It's such a good performer that even if you upgrade your setup you can still use it with higher end stuff safely.
For a cheaper unit HSU has a very cheap unit for about $200 ish.
www.hsuresearch.com/subwoofers.html

[praxiscat]

Aug 21, 2015 13:33:38 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Audio 101.....

A speaker is a passive device, which accepts a relatively high-powered input, usually from the output of an amplifier of some sort.

An amplifier is a powered device, which accepts a "line level" signal, and makes it into a high-powered signal powerful enough to run a speaker.

A preamp is a device that provides controls - like a volume control, an input selector, and possibly other things like decoders and tone controls.
The output of a preamp is a line level output, and so is intended to be connected to the input of an amplifier.

And a source device is something that actually "makes" an audio signal - generally at line level.

(Line level usually means a signal of somewhere around 1V to 2V, which is intended to be sent between audio components, but cannot drive a speaker.)

If you put an amplifier and a preamp in one box, you have an "integrated amplifier".
And, if you put an amplifier, a preamp, and a tuner (radio signal source) in one box, you have a receiver.

A "powered speaker" like our Airmotivs, is simply a speaker with a built-in amplifier.
Therefore, it expects to be fed a line level source (like the output from a preamp, and NOT like the speaker output from an amplifier or receiver.)

You're getting confused because some really dreadful receivers actually use RCA connectors to connect their speakers.
In general, however, RCA connectors are used to connect line level signals, while speaker wires are used for speakers.
(If this stuff really worries you, then you should find a friend to help you do it - it's better to be safe than nervous )

Since the Airmotivs have amplifiers built in, they expect to be sent a signal from something like a preamp.
If you're setting up a whole system, then a preamp or pre/pro (preamp/processor) would be the thing to use.
If you're connecting them to your computer, then a "line level output" would be ideal, but a "headphone output" would work OK.
Whatever you connect them to should have a volume control of some sort.

Even though all receivers have speaker outputs, many also have line-level outputs.
If you had a receiver with line level outputs, or one of those old ones with pre/main jumpers, those would be what you would connect to your Airmotivs.

If you want to use a subwoofer, you usually want a thing called a crossover, which splits things up, and sends the correct frequencies to the main speakers and the sub.
If you use a pre/pro, they usually have a crossover built in - and separate outputs for your main channels and the sub.
Some computer sound cards have separate outputs for "main speakers" and a sub.

If you want to connect both to something without a crossover, like the headphone output from your computer, it won't have a crossover.
You can connect things that way, and they will work, but using a crossover is better.

If you post some more details about either what equipment you already have, or more specifically what you need, then we can come up with some more detailed advice

Aug 21, 2015 13:16:09 GMT -5 praxiscat said:

Hey everyone,
I'm considering grabbing some a pair of Airmotiv 5s (if they're ever back in stock) for my first ever micro - home theater set up, basically to watch Netflix and play games that I'm not playing on my PC. But, frankly, I'm of a younger generation that was only on the tail-end of the non-portable movement, and so developmentally, I have pretty much nothing in terms of audio set up understanding -- I didn't even know what a receiver was until 2 days ago, to give you an idea of the level of familiarity I'm talking about.

So here's my consternation: I don't really know how to hook up my eventual Airmotiv's up with a subwoofer. I was originally thinking of getting a receiver with a TOSlink input and passing them both through that, but nearly no receiver has pre-out left and right any more -- and the Airmotiv manual says to absolutely not use it with a receiver or amp. Furthermore, it's hard to find a cheap receiver that has RCA out; almost everything i'm seeing requires speaker wire. Ok.. So what about a DAC from my TV to my sub, and then passing the audio from the sub back up to the Airmotivs? Nope, almost all of the subs i've seen have speaker wire out.

Ok, that sounds fine for someone with audio experience, but I have pretty much none, and I think a lot of people who are deep into audio equipment underestimate how terrifying the idea of stripping wires and connecting speaker wire to that is -- it's frankly unsettling and I'm worried I'll destroy my speakers or burn down my apartment.

So I'm not really sure what to do or how to proceed. Resources about issues like this are pretty much scant except for forums, and most people assume you have a pretty high baseline of knowledge, which I absolutely don't. Does anyone have any advice?

Thanks for the rundown, Keith. As far as for what audio equipment I have, the answer is literally nothing aside from my computer's mobo sound (which has line level out, but speakers are currently being occupied by my Senn 558s, since the front headphone-in failed). Other than that, I have an LG TV which I hope to connect to speakers, et cetera, somehow. The only audio out it has is digital / optical audio out, hence the need for a DAC. It sounds like what I need is a pre/pro and a DAC; the problem is that i can't find a pre/pro for under 1000 dollars, which seems really bizarre, given that there are a ton of receivers at or sub-300. Am I just an idiot and looking in the wrong place?

Garbulky recommended the DC-1's; would that actually just fit my need right there, since it has a built in Preamp? Or would I still need a crossover?

[creimes]

Well I have a nice Sherbourn PT-7030 pre/pro for sale it would work great for your application but it is bigger than the DC-1

[Deleted]

Hi praxiscat and welcome to the Lounge.  I'm presuming you are considering a 2.1 speaker system (two Airmotiv's and one sub woofer).  I have a 2.1 system for my PC audio and it is great and would work fine for 2.1 TV sound system.

Since you are considering a sub (which I do strongly recommend for excellent lower bass), you might consider the Airmotiv 4 instead of the Airmotiv 5 (and save about $100).  The 5 will play slightly louder but you might not need the extra loudness and if that is not necessary then the 4 has all you need.  It is smaller and has all the low bass you need being blended with a sub for the lowest bass,  The reason is that you would start the sub playback at about 90Hz (and down) and would start the Airmotiv4's at about 90Hz (and up).  Both the Airmotiv's play very good down to the 40Hz-50Hz area and with a sub the lower bass extension down to 40Hz-50Hz on the Airmotiv's is not needed since the sub takes over those lower frequencies.  The Airmotiv4 with a sub versus an Airmotiv5 with a sub should be very close in sound quality except for a little louder for the model 5 on the upper bass, mids and highs (we are probably talking here about 3dB increase in loudness), not necessary unless you are trying to fill a fairly large room or like very loud playback.  Using a sub takes the lower bass playback strain off the Airmotiv amp and allows the Airmotiv to play slightly louder and with less distortion.

I would recommend you look at the Emo XDA-2 over the DC-1 and you will save about $200.  I doubt in 5% of the time or probably less/zero you would be able to hear any difference in these two DAC's.  The XDA-2 will enable you to hook up the TV or a PC and run both the Airmotiv's and the sub from the XDA-2 at the same time.  You would use two each XLR type cables to the Airmotiv and an RCA type cable to the sub (would need one RCA-Y type connector to run the left and right RCA out from the XDA-2 to one single mono RCA in on the sub).  

Since you are missing in this hookup the bass management crossover settings on a receiver, to compensate I would set the Airmotiv's at -4 on the back of the speaker/LF Shelving EQ.  Set the volume dial on the sub to match the volume output on the Airmotiv's.  Set the crossover on the sub to about 90HZ (experiment from 70-100Hz for best blend between the Airmotiv and sub).  In my case this makes for a very nice L/R speaker/sub blend.

Since again I presume you are going here for a fairly reasonably priced system I would look to a high quality 8-10 inch sub (12" sub only if you get  a super deal and have the physical room).  I highly recommend staying with a sub from an online sub dealer unless you find a super deal online for a non-factory direct brand sub.

I have the system I am mentioning above here in my PC system (see my signature, my sub no longer available).  My PC sits against a wall in my dining room which is part of a great room in a small condo.  It sounds both great to me for my PC use (near field, 28") and to fill the dining room area and adjoining living room and kitchen with fairly loud volume (up to about 90+ dB's at 6-8 feet).

Let us know when you make a decision and we can advise on what cables, etc might be needed.  Stay away from local dealers for cable, etc. as these are high profit items and buy online from Emo, Monopirce, Blue Jeans or Amazon.  Locally Best Buy will usually meet online prices, but be careful and no extended warranties on anything.

Here are few links for excellent smaller subs depending on your budget.  Frequency response down to 30Hz or so (OK for music and movies) or down to 25Hz or less (very good for movies).  These are high quality subs (some at close out prices).   Look at dimensions and weight for size comparisons.  Don't get hung up on one sub brand is the best, there are many good subs.  If your budget for subs goes over $500 then look to SVS, HSU, Outlaw Audio, Ryhtmik and Power Sound Audio.

www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-Dynamo-300-Theater-Subwoofer/dp/B004LRPXAU/ref=pd_sim_sbs_23_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0BBM0K87Q7SMQAPKW5B0

www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1000-10-100-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-628

www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

www.svsound.com/specials/outlet-specials/sb-1000-outlet-ba

www.outlawaudio.com/products/m8.html
 

[mshump]

praxiscat you can run a receiver with the Airmotivs with no problem (provided you get one with pre-outs)  This shouldn't cost you an arm and a leg.

. If you look kind of center above the speaker connections there is a pre-out section. The Airmotivs would connect to the Front R and L connections. A powered sub would connect to the Sub pre-out., at the top you have the optical input.. The receiver has internal Dacs that would work for your optical. 

[AudioHTIT]

I'm with @chuckienut, check out the XDA-2, should work very well.

[creimes]

Aug 21, 2015 16:23:33 GMT -5 mshump said:

praxiscat you can run a receiver with the Airmotivs with no problem (provided you get one with pre-outs)  This shouldn't cost you an arm and a leg.

. If you look kind of center above the speaker connections there is a pre-out section. The Airmotivs would connect to the Front R and L connections. A powered sub would connect to the Sub pre-out., at the top you have the optical input.. The receiver has internal Dacs that would work for your optical. 

Even better

[praxiscat]

Hey everyone,
I really appreciate all the answers; I have one problem with the XDA-2. The users manual for it says that it will only take PCM, not dolby digital, but I'm not entirely sure what my TV outputs. On the manual (http://www.lg.com/us/support-product/lg-42LN5400) it says it supports both PCM and Dolby Digital for HDMI input, but is silent about the optical output. The XDA-2 sounds great for driving from my computer, but I need it to drive from my TV too.

[garbulky]

It is most likely PCM audio. You can also check to make sure on your setup menu by using your remote control.
Your TV doesn't appear to be a smart TV. What is the source for your TV? Is it a blue ray player or a cable box? Because if so, they tend to have COAX (SPDIF) or TOSLINK PCM outputs. And is the preferred way to connect your DAC.
The DC-1 is a superior sounding unit and the airmotiv 5 is able to show the difference. But the XDA-2 isn't bad. If you want an XDA-2, I suggest getting them used, they are very cheap these days.

[praxiscat]

Aug 21, 2015 21:58:57 GMT -5 garbulky said:

It is most likely PCM audio. You can also check to make sure on your setup menu by using your remote control.
Your TV doesn't appear to be a smart TV. What is the source for your TV? Is it a blue ray player or a cable box? Because if so, they tend to have COAX (SPDIF) or TOSLINK PCM outputs. And is the preferred way to connect your DAC.
The DC-1 is a superior sounding unit and the airmotiv 5 is able to show the difference. But the XDA-2 isn't bad. If you want an XDA-2, I suggest getting them used, they are very cheap these days.

My TV doesn't actually have the ability to select audio codec via remote. Kind of weird, I know, but numerous people have had that problem.

I haven't been able to find a used XDA-2, though. Any idea where I could find one?

[creimes]

Aug 21, 2015 22:27:40 GMT -5 praxiscat said:

Aug 21, 2015 21:58:57 GMT -5 garbulky said:

It is most likely PCM audio. You can also check to make sure on your setup menu by using your remote control.
Your TV doesn't appear to be a smart TV. What is the source for your TV? Is it a blue ray player or a cable box? Because if so, they tend to have COAX (SPDIF) or TOSLINK PCM outputs. And is the preferred way to connect your DAC.
The DC-1 is a superior sounding unit and the airmotiv 5 is able to show the difference. But the XDA-2 isn't bad. If you want an XDA-2, I suggest getting them used, they are very cheap these days.

My TV doesn't actually have the ability to select audio codec via remote. Kind of weird, I know, but numerous people have had that problem.

I haven't been able to find a used XDA-2, though. Any idea where I could find one?

Here is one on US Audio Mart

www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649216870-emotiva-xda-2-gen-i-dac/

[vcautokid]

I would make your audio journey easy and search for a UMC-200 previously owned. It will have all the decoding and pre outs you need for your powered monitor of choice whichever that might be. It will have all the codecs that are new, and now, and will give you HDMI switching, and an audiophile sound your computer alone won't do.

Keith is 100% on his explanation on how this all works. An A/V receiver has amplifiers inside you will most likely never use, so why pay for them. Even it at first look it seems cheaper, a Preamplifier Processor is the way to go.

Here is a link to check one out someone is selling. Welcome to the Emotiva Universe. I hope your travels here are fun, and helpful.

www.ebay.com/itm/Emotiva-UMC-200-7-1-Channel-Preamp-Processor-Tested-Working-/391232612922?hash=item5b1747ea3a

[garbulky]

Oh in that case it's likely PCM audio. When I mean remote, I mean you have to go to the setup menu on the TV. Not pressing a PCM button on the remote if that makes sense as you won't have that button. But anyway, if you are getting your picture from a blu ray player or a cable box you can connect the DAC directly to those instead of the TV. Most people don't use the TV's output when using the DAC - even though you can.

Edit: I agree with getting a used UMC-200 for me. It will do the subwoofer bass management and everything. That used price is very good.

[cheapthryl]

All good options here. I would think if you plan on 2 channel system, a dac/pre ( xda-1, 2 or dc-1) would be the ticket . If you plan on going surround sound in the future, a umc (1 or 200) would do the job with great results. I have all of these combos and happy with them.

[petew]

Some televisions do not output anything on the optical port if the input source is HDMI. Vizio works, Sharp dont, I don't know about LG.

Another vote for a pre-pro like the UMC-200 or PT-7030.

[vcautokid]

Makes you wonder if that is a result of HDCP not allowing the sound out of the TV via Optical output. Hmmm, Keith??