|
|
Post by afterburner on Oct 13, 2015 8:54:39 GMT -5
While my wife and I understand our taste is MUCH larger than our pocket books, we try our best to get the best performance/quality components while on a tight budget.
What we had...
LG 55" 1080P 120Hz
Onkyo TX-NR809 (AV)
Emotiva XPA-3 (Front and center Amp)
polkaudio RTi12 (2) (Fronts)
polkaudio CSi5 (Center)
polkaudio RTi4 (4) (Surrounds)
JBL ES250P (Sub)
We updated the TV and the Sub to...
Sony 65X850C
SVS PB13-Ultra
We want to go 75-88" for the TV. That means this new 65" TV will go to the Master Bedroom once we finish with our new home (We Just sold our previous home and plan to either build a new one this next year or buy a new one). Top priority now that the kids are all out of the hoe, is a theater specific room.
In the mean time the plan is to upgrade the AV unit to the new HDCP 2.2 4K requirement and a grab one of Sony's 4K players when they come out. Then we will add one set of "Height" speakers for Dolby Atom and DTS-X.
Right now i am debating on Marantz or Onkyo for the AV and if I should get another set of Amps to run the planned 7.2.4 or not...
Very exciting times for home theater enthusiast right now! We can finally make our space as good as the Imax type systems.
|
|
|
|
Post by afterburner on Oct 13, 2015 10:18:03 GMT -5
And now for the questions...
Please forgive my ignorance as I am still learning. Here we go.
I am running my XPA-3 as my front mains and center. Does my Onkyo receiver automatically recognize that I am using the pre-outs for this and it is NOT wasting power internally to feed the speaker terminals when this happens?
Here is why I am asking... I am debating on waiting for the 7.2.4 AV units to hit the market in 2016 or just pick up a Marantz 6010 in a month or two and run 5.2.2 or 7.2.2 with an amp. And as I am debating, I am thinking of getting an XPA-5 to run the surrounds (Only using four of the connection, leaving the fifth unused), leaving the AV unit to only need to power the two "Height" speakers. Allowing for max performance at very low distortion ratios.
However, it made me wonder if the AV unit is pushing power to all the channels or if they are smart enough to only "Juice" hard wired connections and pushing all the power to those few.
And then the big question... Should I step up to a receiver that has the Toroidal Transformer or is that simply overkill with my plans to run amps?
Thank you!
|
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 9,961
|
Post by KeithL on Oct 13, 2015 10:51:04 GMT -5
And now for the questions... Please forgive my ignorance as I am still learning. Here we go. I am running my XPA-3 as my front mains and center. Does my Onkyo receiver automatically recognize that I am using the pre-outs for this and it is NOT wasting power internally to feed the speaker terminals when this happens? Here is why I am asking... I am debating on waiting for the 7.2.4 AV units to hit the market in 2016 or just pick up a Marantz 6010 in a month or two and run 5.2.2 or 7.2.2 with an amp. And as I am debating, I am thinking of getting an XPA-5 to run the surrounds (Only using four of the connection, leaving the fifth unused), leaving the AV unit to only need to power the two "Height" speakers. Allowing for max performance at very low distortion ratios. However, it made me wonder if the AV unit is pushing power to all the channels or if they are smart enough to only "Juice" hard wired connections and pushing all the power to those few. And then the big question... Should I step up to a receiver that has the Toroidal Transformer or is that simply overkill with my plans to run amps? Thank you! In general, a receiver isn't going to "know" whether there are speakers connected. However, the amount of power delivered by an amplifier depends on the load, so, even though the amplifiers will remain on, and there will be signal at the amplifier's speaker outputs, the amplifiers that aren't attached to speakers won't draw very much power. And, yes, leaving only a few speakers connected should "leave more power for those channels" - although how much you gain by that proposition will depend on a lot of things. (Whether you get significantly more power, or lower distortion, from the remaining channels in use will depend on how the circuitry is designed. With a receiver, you will probably get at least some benefit in that regard, but it's not like you're going to get all the power, at vanishingly lower distortion, out of one or two channels.) Switching to the XPA-5 is going to be by far the biggest gain - to the channels you connect to it  There are several different types of transformers, and toroidal transformers usually give you the best performance for the least cost; they also tend to run somewhat quieter than other types. However, assuming transformers of similar ratings, you shouldn't expect the type of transformer used to make a significant difference in the overall sound of a receiver... Considering that you are planning to use a separate amp for most of your speakers anyway, I very much doubt that the transformer type will in fact make ANY audible difference..... Since you already have the receiver, it makes sense to use it to power your front height speakers, which aren't especially critical. However, it doesn't make sense to buy another receiver just to use its amps to run the front height speakers. Since you're already using and planning to use separate amps, which are generally much better than a receiver, it makes a lot more sense to switch over to a preamp/processor and use all separate amplifiers. You could get two more channels of amplifier by going with an XPA-7 instead of an XPA-5, or by adding another small stereo amp - like a Mini-X. (When compared to separates, a receiver generally isn't a good choice; it would be sort of like keeping the old 8-track player that came with your last car.  ) By the time you're ready to make a decision next year, you might want to consider moving up to our XMC-1 pre/pro (and, by then, we expect to have a new economy model pre/pro available as well). |
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 18,357
|
Post by DYohn on Oct 13, 2015 10:52:02 GMT -5
IMO upgrading anything with the name Onkyo on it is a good place to start.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Oct 13, 2015 14:32:56 GMT -5
My 20 cents worth;
I agree with Keith, an XPA-7 would be a better choice over an XPA-5 as you indicated that you intend to use more channels than the XPA-5 will support.
I also agree with Keith that a separate pre pro would be a superior sounding choice, plus you wouldn't be wasting money on amplifier stages that you aren't going to use.
Right now I see HT in a state of change, it's always in a state of change, but currently I see a number of technology items that aren't quite aligned. Personally I haven't seen a pre pro that handles all the standards that I'm likely to use and/or need over its lifespan, which for me is around 5 years. Unlike quality power amplifiers, which never go out of date, pre pros (and AVR's) have a definite life and buying one when the industry is, in general, in between technology updates doesn't fit my view of good ROI. As a result I'm holding off on buying a new pre pro until it's a bit more settled, sure it's never totally settled, but right now it's a bit too unsettled for me.
Cheers
Gary
|
|
|
|
Post by afterburner on Oct 13, 2015 16:34:14 GMT -5
Thank you all for the information.
I do need a little clarity...
I already own an XPA-3 and it is running the two Fronts and Center. Should I not be doing that? It sounds like I should be running them off the AV =[ And my thinking on getting the XPA-5 would allow for the two surrounds being powered by the XPA-5 and the "Height" speakers for DTS-X and Dolby Atom to be powered by the AV I choose.
To be clear. I would keep the XPA-3 to run three channels up front, and the XPA-5 to run four in the rear. Or... I could run the Center and the "Height" pair off the AV and the two fronts off the XPA-3, take the extra channel and pair it to the fifth channel on the XPA-5 to drive two fronts and four surrounds.
I am pretty sure I just tied my brain in a knot...
My original thinking was to use the AV as little as possible. However, in HT I am forced to go with a unit that is HDCP 2.2 compliant for 4K content do I not (The new HDMI/HDCP 2.2 is not backwards compatible)?
Is this new "Pre/Pro" going even need to be compatible with HDCP 2.2? Or is the thinking here (And where my ignorance shines) is that all players/cable boxes are going to have Optical Outs to allow us to get the sound from that source instead of feeding the HDMI/HDCP 2.2 through the AV's?
|
|
|
|
Post by dally on Oct 13, 2015 16:53:35 GMT -5
If it was me, I would use the XPA 5 to run the main speakers and both surrounds, and the XPA-3 to run the center and back surrounds. Run the heights off the reciever. If you want all speakers on a seperate amp, I would get the XPA-7 and run seven speakers with that and put either surrounds or heights on the XPA-3. I would always put my main speakers on the superior amp, so either the xpa-5 of 7 , whichever you choose to upgrade to.
|
|
|
|
Post by afterburner on Oct 13, 2015 18:26:10 GMT -5
My 20 cents worth; I agree with Keith, an XPA-7 would be a better choice over an XPA-5 as you indicated that you intend to use more channels than the XPA-5 will support. I also agree with Keith that a separate pre pro would be a superior sounding choice, plus you wouldn't be wasting money on amplifier stages that you aren't going to use. Right now I see HT in a state of change, it's always in a state of change, but currently I see a number of technology items that aren't quite aligned. Personally I haven't seen a pre pro that handles all the standards that I'm likely to use and/or need over its lifespan, which for me is around 5 years. Unlike quality power amplifiers, which never go out of date, pre pros (and AVR's) have a definite life and buying one when the industry is, in general, in between technology updates doesn't fit my view of good ROI. As a result I'm holding off on buying a new pre pro until it's a bit more settled, sure it's never totally settled, but right now it's a bit too unsettled for me. Cheers Gary Good thinking Gary. I would much rather buy a few more amps and purchase the pre/pros or AV's as needed without concerning myself with the power usage. The challenge I am seeing at the moment is the mid level AV's do not have 5.2.2 or HDCP 2.2 like the upper mid level to high end do now. Net year I am certain it will filter down to most of the AV's as 4K becomes more readily available. That is the problem with me and cutting edge. I try and wait it out, but become impatient... |
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,357
|
Post by DYohn on Oct 13, 2015 18:49:14 GMT -5
You don't need HDMI 2.2 for 4K, by the way.
|
|
|
|
Post by afterburner on Oct 13, 2015 22:49:07 GMT -5
|
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,357
|
Post by DYohn on Oct 14, 2015 8:52:53 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by afterburner on Oct 14, 2015 14:08:30 GMT -5
Excellent. Yes, old school 1.4 HDMI does work with 4K. It does not however work with the "New" standard that is the official copyright protection for 4K, called HDCP 2.2. Bottom line... www.hdmi.org/ The big difference is that HDMI 2.0 is backward-compatible with previous HDMI versions, while HDCP 2.2 is not backward-compatible when it comes to 4K video. That means you can connect older sources, like a regular Blu-ray player or cable box to a new 4K TV and enjoy an HD picture in 1080P or upscale, but not true 4K. And... www.crutchfield.com/S-iIMa8ztim1P/learn/what-you-need-to-know-about-hdcp-2-2.html And I quote " Lots of 4K TVs and 4K media players have been sold since the first models arrived in mid-2013, and many of those products – especially from 2013 – lack support for HDCP 2.2. Worse, these products cannot be upgraded because HDCP 2.2 requires a “hardware” update – it’s not something you can fix with a firmware update."/Quote And as I understand it, my 4K 1.4 & 2.0 HDMI Onkyo receiver will not "Handshake" 4K video that is encrypted (So to speak) to the HDCP 2.2 standard. All I get is a black screen. Forcing me to buy a new AV or Pre/Pro... It will work just fine with older 1080P bluerays. But the soon to be released 4K's will not work. The way I normally use my setup is Player/AV/TV. Today the only 4K I can see and hear is on Netflix and Amazon Prime directly from the TV internet access and speakers. Forcing me to have no audio when using 4K at this point through my AV. |
|
|
|
Post by moovtune on Oct 15, 2015 8:28:08 GMT -5
You understand it correctly Afterburner. My prepro from three years ago can upconvert to 4K and can pass 4K... through the HDMI 1.4 hardware in the device. But if the software I'm playing has HDCP 2.2 copy protection, then no go.
|
|
|
|
Post by afterburner on Oct 16, 2015 23:01:00 GMT -5
SVS PB13-Ultra installed today. Good looking product. A tad smaller than I was expecting. I need to do some serious tuning to it though. Pretty boomy. Set it up for 16Hz. Dropped the volume by 9. In fact there is a significant difference from -10 and -9.
Watched Furious 7. Did not have the sharpness I was hoping for.
Tomorrow, Music time!
|
|
|
|
Post by creimes on Oct 16, 2015 23:29:02 GMT -5
SVS PB13-Ultra installed today. Good looking product. A tad smaller than I was expecting. I need to do some serious tuning to it though. Pretty boomy. Set it up for 16Hz. Dropped the volume by 9. In fact there is a significant difference from -10 and -9. Watched Furious 7. Did not have the sharpness I was hoping for. Tomorrow, Music time! One reason I really love my XMC-1, Dirac makes my two 18" subs sound soooooo good  |
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Oct 17, 2015 3:21:07 GMT -5
While Audissey and the like works, the strange curves and contours they conjure up are sometimes a pain to fix. At least Dirac especially the full version makes it allot more controllable.
|
|
|
|
Post by afterburner on Oct 18, 2015 8:08:17 GMT -5
OK...
Music was interesting. I really had to play with it so that I could get the accuracy I wanted, but not feel a gap in coverage...
As far as HT, I think it is time to step up to an amp for the surround and Atom's. I think this sub is being reduced to mediocrity (I am tuning it down) because it is far more capable than the rest of our system. I can also see why I need two of these. The room is really unbalanced. I want the impacts to fill the room, not come from one part of the room. In other words, I want the sub to become a part of the entire space and make it hard to figure out where that sub is placed. Tall order I bet...
|
|
) By the time you're ready to make a decision next year, you might want to consider moving up to our XMC-1 pre/pro (and, by then, we expect to have a new economy model pre/pro available as well).
