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Post by creimes on Oct 23, 2015 21:27:07 GMT -5
XSP-1 would go after the receiver, you would connect the left and right preouts of the receiver to the HT Bypass inputs on the XSP-1, that way any of your 2 channel sources like CD Players and\or DAC's connect to the XSP-1 inputs and play only through the XSP-1 for best 2ch performance and SQ. Chad Okay, that makes sense. So currently, my 2ch sources are pretty much just my media server (housing my library of 16-bit FLAC rips and played directly by the Denon) and streaming services (Apple Music and such) from my iPhone via Bluetooth. If I were to employ an XSP-1, I'd have to get a DAC that could take in those sources since the Denon would no longer be doing it, correct? That brings me to the Oppo 105/105D, which I've been eyeing for a while for its lauded audio capabilities. How would it compare to the XSP-1 in regards to 2ch performance and SQ? I have heard the Oppo 105 and the XSP-1 are really great together, I didn't think you meant that for a DAC but that works, I have the Oppo 103 but all my music is played from my MAC Mini to my XMC-1 via USB but the XMC-1's DAC sounds extremely good, what receiver are you using to make sure it has RCA Pre Outs Oh and occasionally I do use the Oppo 103 for Music as well, I actually Just purchased the DSD version of Dave Brubeck Quartet - Time Out |
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Oct 23, 2015 22:35:52 GMT -5
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Post by highfihoney on Oct 23, 2015 22:35:52 GMT -5
Are there times you feel like you are running out of power? If so I would worry about the fronts first then another sub. Also look start doing some research into room treatments. They will actually make the biggest difference sound wise. Though I don't think I've pushed my receiver to its limit yet, I am concerned about its ability to drive my fronts properly. According to Denon, the x3100w puts out up to 215wpc under a 4ohm load, and the 60XTs are rated for 20-400 watts, so I'm afraid that those speakers may be asking for more than what the Denon can muster. Naturally, I bought this AVR model last year thinking that I was going to get the Motion 40s, but when time came to buy them a couple months ago I wanted to upgrade.... Funny that you mention room treatments, just the other day I started looking into this. I've got flat walls, flat ceiling, and tile flooring, so there's plenty of need for bass traps and acoustic panels... plus I have to put together a pair of plugs for the basement well windows, since I'm leaking sound to the outside under moderate volumes. Are you in a basement with cement or block walls & a tile floor ? If so if were me before i bought any more speakers or gear the tile floor & cement walls would need taken care of , lots of heavy rugs on the floor to start & if you cant afford to recover all the walls hang as many large non glass face pics as you can on all the walls , heavy cloth tapistrys will work too, our 5 channel rig is set up in a concrete wall/floor bomb shelter below our basement & we had to redo all the walls , floor & ceiling before i could get the system tuned in right . |
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Oct 23, 2015 22:36:40 GMT -5
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Post by highfihoney on Oct 23, 2015 22:36:40 GMT -5
Hi all! In the pursuit of building up my fledgling home theater, I've come across the Emotiva brand and have spent the past week or so soaking in all the info I can from this forum... so, thank you all for your useful opinions and expertise! The holiday sale is upon us, and it's pushing me ever-so-close to the edge of buying some amps -- likely the XPA-5 and XPA-2, though it's really tempting to swap out the XPA-2 for a pair of XPA-1Ls while they are still in stock. Anyway, I'm glad to be here, and I hope to join the Emotiva Owner's Club sooner than later!  Welcome abord |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 24, 2015 0:43:22 GMT -5
I didn't realzie you didn't have the amps. The amps come FIRST. Then worry about the rest later. Here is how I would upgrade. 1. Room treatments. Stick at least one of these www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.htmlBehind the couch wall at head level. 2. Amps amps amps!! Both the XPA-2 or the XPA-1 L will knock your frigging socks off. It will be an ipmrovement over your reciever. Then your route becomes interesting. Since it appears that you really like Home theater the XMC-1 would seem like a nice viable choice. But it is $$$ and I suspect that you may be hestiant due to that. But I have heard it and it is true, the unit is darn good at what it does. It will outclass your Denon easily and provide solid 2 channel performance. So the easy but pricey route is the XMC-1. And I can't reiterate that this is really the best of both worlds here. Anyway...if not.... The XSP-1 will allow you to hold on to your Denon. And then you can buy a high quality two channel DAC of your choice. There are a lot of good ones. Also the reason I reccomend the XSP-1 is that it does do a better job of controlling the Emotiva amps than a standard reciever or even a DAC + Volume control. (At least in my subjective opinnion.) Its soundstage is very solid, the dynamics hit hard. The sound doesn't feel thin. etc. And it does sound better through it than going directly to the amp from the audio source. The XSP-1 will go directly in to the Emotiva amps. So basically it acts as a hub. The front channels of your Denon stick in to it. But when you want to aviod the Denon and go to a 2 channel DAC it provides a pure fully balanced signal path. Plus if you buy XPA-1 L's the signal path with the XSP-1 is fully balanced. (This requires double the circuitry and is technically lower in distortion. Though not NECESSARILY audible.) NOw even though I feel the sound is better with the XSP-1 the real reason to get it is if you are planning to buy a two channel DAC. If you are not, then the XMC-1 is really the way to go. Forget the XSP-1. Some nice 2 channel DAC choices I've heard personally. DC-1. Oppo 105. (This specific DAC combined with the XSP-1 and XPA-1 Ls provides really good sound imo. Best I've heard. But it is $$$ ...buy the XSP-1 and the oppo you end up spending near as much as an XMC-1.) The ultimate DAC (Not heard it but I plan on buying it someday). Schiit Yggdrassil Also not heard but yves reccomends the eastern electric supreme DAC which is supposed to be an outsanding performer. There are also a lot of other fine choices that I haven't heard. |
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Post by saru on Oct 24, 2015 0:44:43 GMT -5
Are you in a basement with cement or block walls & a tile floor ? If so if were me before i bought any more speakers or gear the tile floor & cement walls would need taken care of , lots of heavy rugs on the floor to start & if you cant afford to recover all the walls hang as many large non glass face pics as you can on all the walls , heavy cloth tapistrys will work too, our 5 channel rig is set up in a concrete wall/floor bomb shelter below our basement & we had to redo all the walls , floor & ceiling before i could get the system tuned in right . The basement walls are finished with drywall, actually, I should've mentioned that... same with the ceiling. So there's not much to do there beyond acoustic panels and traps. The floor, on the other hand, has to stay tiled on account of our pets who are usually hanging out with us if we're downstairs and are unfortunately not very respectful of carpets and rugs (as a direct result of this, the house we bought this year is completely hard-floored, lol...). While I'd love to put down proper floor treatment, it's not really an option for me  |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 24, 2015 0:56:31 GMT -5
P.S.: The oppo 105 by itself by itself isn't that fantastic. The XSP-1 kicks it up a notch or two.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 4:52:51 GMT -5
Are you in a basement with cement or block walls & a tile floor ? If so if were me before i bought any more speakers or gear the tile floor & cement walls would need taken care of , lots of heavy rugs on the floor to start & if you cant afford to recover all the walls hang as many large non glass face pics as you can on all the walls , heavy cloth tapistrys will work too, our 5 channel rig is set up in a concrete wall/floor bomb shelter below our basement & we had to redo all the walls , floor & ceiling before i could get the system tuned in right . The basement walls are finished with drywall, actually, I should've mentioned that... same with the ceiling. So there's not much to do there beyond acoustic panels and traps. The floor, on the other hand, has to stay tiled on account of our pets who are usually hanging out with us if we're downstairs and are unfortunately not very respectful of carpets and rugs (as a direct result of this, the house we bought this year is completely hard-floored, lol...). While I'd love to put down proper floor treatment, it's not really an option for me Welcome Saru! First, I think you need to schedule a visit from Cesar Milan, The Dog Whisperer!   Seriously, you have a relatively small and bright/reflective room (very reflective floor). Install as much sound absorbing material on the walls and ceilings as you practically can, especially if you leave the entire floor as hardwood. The ML's are from the specs very sensitive (94 dB/2.83 volts/meter). That means that they will need about 1/4th the power of the average speaker (88dB sensitivity). Drawing about 4 ohms the amp will put out more power than at 8 ohms, however being 4 ohms speaker they will place a heavier strain on the average AVR receiver like the Denon X3100W. The real (not exaggerated marketing) power specs on that receiver are about 105 watts per channel into 8 ohms with 2 channels operating. The Denon AVR is not very strong into 4 ohms and I'd be very careful driving 5-7, 4 ohm speaker with this or most any other AV receiver. This no offense to Denon which is a fine product, but none of the AVR receivers are very strong for 4 ohms speakers. I would definitely upgrade to an Emo amp especially during the sale. However, in that room I think some of the amps suggested are more power than you need. I usually with larger rooms and average speakers recommend lots of power. In your case the XPA-3, XPA-5 or XPA-7 would be a great match. They put out about 300-330 watts per ch into 4 ohms with all channels operating. The Denon in a real test with all channels operating might put out about 60-75 honest watts per channel into 8 ohms with 5 or 7 channels operating and maybe higher into 4 ohms if the unit doesn't shut down. The 215wpc under a 4ohm load (maybe one channel only at 1kHz and clipping distortion) is not even close to being realistic. Trust me, I went and downloaded the X3100W owner's manual to verify the actual printed specs. The Denon is rated down only to 6 ohms with 135 watts, 2 channels and that is at almost clipping distortion. It is not a 4 ohm receiver, almost no AVR's (even above $2500) are these days. These AVR's are not made for 4 ohm speakers. ML says " Nominal Impedance 4 Ohms. Compatible with 4, 6 or 8 ohm rated amplifiers." Not very good advice but they don't want to loose a sale to someone who already has an AVR. You could go with the XPA-5 and use the Denon for the two rear surround channels (or the Emo mini-X a-100 for the rear), or right to the XPA-7, or even maybe to the XPA-3 and use the Denon for the rear 4 channels. Note that normally the surround channels will not require as much tower as the front LCR channels. The ML Motion FX is an ideally designed surround speaker and the 50XT is a perfect match for the 60XT's. I would jump on the XPA-5 (with other amp for the rear 2 ch) or the XPA-7. Awesome amps/Amazing prices! If you have extra funds down the road I would look at a second ML 700 sub or even better in the future online direct sub(s) that go lower than 24Hz at -3dB. Sub(s) don't need to be from the same brand as the mains. Here IMO are some important comments by Brent Butterworth, Home Theater Review; " I was much happier with the sound when I ..... ran the Motion 60XT with a Hsu Research VTF-15H Mk2 subwoofer, with the crossover point set to 80 Hz ...... This let me tame the bass peak, in the process smoothing out the sound and filling in the upper bass and lower mids better. ..... Frequency response: On-axis: ±2.4 dB from 44 Hz to 20 kHz (excellent) ... Average: ±4.0 dB from 44 Hz to 20 kHz ..... Impedance: Minimum 2.1 ohms/250 Hz/-18 degrees, nominal four ohms ..... Sensitivity (2.83 volts/one meter, anechoic): 90.6 dB ..... on axis response throughout most of the audio band is extremely flat ..... sharp roll-off in the off-axis treble response is likely to reduce the sense of space and "air" that the speaker delivers (toe in speakers towards sweet spot if desired) ..... Sensitivity, you should get about +3 dB more output in-room, so the 94dB rating seems reasonable ..... Nominal impedance is four ohms, and the speaker drops to a low of 2.1 ohms; so ..... even though this speaker will play loud from just a few watts of power, you need an amp with plenty of current to drive it. Use a separate amp, or a high-quality integrated amp." (underlines and parenthesis are mine)
Good luck with your new system! |
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Post by yves on Oct 24, 2015 4:55:25 GMT -5
Are you in a basement with cement or block walls & a tile floor ? If so if were me before i bought any more speakers or gear the tile floor & cement walls would need taken care of , lots of heavy rugs on the floor to start & if you cant afford to recover all the walls hang as many large non glass face pics as you can on all the walls , heavy cloth tapistrys will work too, our 5 channel rig is set up in a concrete wall/floor bomb shelter below our basement & we had to redo all the walls , floor & ceiling before i could get the system tuned in right . The basement walls are finished with drywall, actually, I should've mentioned that... same with the ceiling. So there's not much to do there beyond acoustic panels and traps. The floor, on the other hand, has to stay tiled on account of our pets who are usually hanging out with us if we're downstairs and are unfortunately not very respectful of carpets and rugs (as a direct result of this, the house we bought this year is completely hard-floored, lol...). While I'd love to put down proper floor treatment, it's not really an option for me Hard floor is acoustically better than carpeted IMO. Heavy tapistry / drapes against the walls are to be avoided, just like egg cartons and sculpted foam batts are to be avoided, for a number of important reasons. First off, they (heavy tapistries and rugs) cannot be used to replace properly designed porous absorbing panels that should be sized and placed strategically to cover early reflection points on the walls and ceiling. Secondly, hard reflective surfaces are necessary to prevent the room from sounding too dead, and, in some areas adding diffusors (properly designed diffusors, not bookcases filled with unevenly placed books that *look* like diffusors...) can also help to achieve a more natural "ambience". Last but not least, in a small room, you will need all the bass trapping that you can get, and this is despite some people saying it is possible to "overabsorb" the bass with too many bass traps. You can't overabsorb the bass. Period. However, you *can* make the bad mistake of spending too much money on bass trapping performance so that you won't have enough money left to spend towards properly treating the early reflections and ambience of the room. And you can make the (also bad) mistake of installing the type of "bass traps " that simply don't absorb any bass frequencies. That said, not only the choice of materials / types of treatments are key. Strategic placement of the speakers, the listening position, and the room treatments all also matter a ton. |
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Post by brutiarti on Oct 24, 2015 9:55:06 GMT -5
I think for those Martin Logans the xpa-1l would be a great match for 2ch. The prices on those amps are insanely low right now go for them!
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Post by highfihoney on Oct 24, 2015 16:09:31 GMT -5
The basement walls are finished with drywall, actually, I should've mentioned that... same with the ceiling. So there's not much to do there beyond acoustic panels and traps. The floor, on the other hand, has to stay tiled on account of our pets who are usually hanging out with us if we're downstairs and are unfortunately not very respectful of carpets and rugs (as a direct result of this, the house we bought this year is completely hard-floored, lol...). While I'd love to put down proper floor treatment, it's not really an option for me Hard floor is acoustically better than carpeted IMO. Heavy tapistry / drapes against the walls are to be avoided, just like egg cartons and sculpted foam batts are to be avoided, for a number of important reasons. First off, they (heavy tapistries and rugs) cannot be used to replace properly designed porous absorbing panels that should be sized and placed strategically to cover early reflection points on the walls and ceiling. Secondly, hard reflective surfaces are necessary to prevent the room from sounding too dead, and, in some areas adding diffusors (properly designed diffusors, not bookcases filled with unevenly placed books that *look* like diffusors...) can also help to achieve a more natural "ambience". Last but not least, in a small room, you will need all the bass trapping that you can get, and this is despite some people saying it is possible to "overabsorb" the bass with too many bass traps. You can't overabsorb the bass. Period. However, you *can* make the bad mistake of spending too much money on bass trapping performance so that you won't have enough money left to spend towards properly treating the early reflections and ambience of the room. And you can make the (also bad) mistake of installing the type of "bass traps " that simply don't absorb any bass frequencies. That said, not only the choice of materials / types of treatments are key. Strategic placement of the speakers, the listening position, and the room treatments all also matter a ton. Wow , you do realize that most of your entire opening statement goes directly against all conventional wisdom about room accoustics , hardwood floors are better than carpet ? , heavy drapes & other absorbant materials like tapistrys are to be avoided ?, bookcases are no good with uneven books that look like sound diffusers ? ,then i like how you threw in the egg carton analogy as a comparison . To the OP , alot of people here will have you believe you must make your listening area look like an anechoic chamber in order to have good room accoustics & & good performance from your system , this is 100% false & not praticle in a living enviroment , hard , refelctive , even surfaces like drywall from floor to ceiling do not need accoustical panels everywhere to get a good sounding room ,anything non reflective that makes the wall surfaces uneven will work & if its absorbant then even better , anything non reflective that scatters the sound wave is a good thing, 99% of the people saying you must address room conditions via accoustical panels do not have their own rooms covered in accoustic panels & never address their own hard flat ceiling . The 2 main issues in room accoustics in small even sided hard surface rooms are #1 diffusion of the wave & #2 absorbtion of reflections , with a tile floor & smooth drywall ceiling its nearly impossible to have a dead room , its easiest to work on diffusion 1st by decorating the walls , you can use normal household living area items such as large pictures like oil paintings on your walls , bookcases full of books ( are good to use ) as well as large standing cd & dvd racks , you can even use wall hung cd & dvd racks to break up the sound wave & they work very well , as well as accoustical panels ? no but they do work & they work well in a home that looks like a home vs a studio , you can do simple things like leaving doors open in the listening area to allow sound to escape the room vs reflect or overload. The next issue is absorbtion & again no need to jump directly into accoustical panels , clouds & bass traps before using furnishings to address issues , items such as thick cussioned sofas & plush chairs help tremendously with absorbtion , anything hung on the walls that breaks the soundwave scatters the sound & thick plush furniture will absorb much of the reflections , as will heavy drapes & the tapistry another member warned against, thick throw rugs will help tame your floor quite a bit as well , hardwood floors are difficult & tile floors are even harder to tame down . If you cant carpet the floor because of pets atleast use a thick rug in the listening position to help you out on the floor , i'll post a nice easy set up guide later this evening when i get more free time that shows you how to tame room conditions using normal household furnishings placed in key locations . |
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Post by brutiarti on Oct 24, 2015 17:01:48 GMT -5
Actually, Ethan Winner talks about that in his book. Regarding bookshelves, carpet, egg cartons, non-acustic foam, etc for acoustic purposes he calls them an internet myth and do not work. He has a pretty cool DIY section to help saving money instead of buying professional products that can be quite pricey. Just my 0.2 cents
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Oct 24, 2015 17:03:21 GMT -5
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Post by highfihoney on Oct 24, 2015 17:03:21 GMT -5
I didn't realzie you didn't have the amps. The amps come FIRST. Then worry about the rest later. Here is how I would upgrade. 1. Room treatments. Stick at least one of these www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.htmlBehind the couch wall at head level. 2. Amps amps amps!! Both the XPA-2 or the XPA-1 L will knock your frigging socks off. It will be an ipmrovement over your reciever. Then your route becomes interesting. Since it appears that you really like Home theater the XMC-1 would seem like a nice viable choice. But it is $$$ and I suspect that you may be hestiant due to that. But I have heard it and it is true, the unit is darn good at what it does. It will outclass your Denon easily and provide solid 2 channel performance. So the easy but pricey route is the XMC-1. And I can't reiterate that this is really the best of both worlds here. Anyway...if not.... The XSP-1 will allow you to hold on to your Denon. And then you can buy a high quality two channel DAC of your choice. There are a lot of good ones. Also the reason I reccomend the XSP-1 is that it does do a better job of controlling the Emotiva amps than a standard reciever or even a DAC + Volume control. (At least in my subjective opinnion.) Its soundstage is very solid, the dynamics hit hard. The sound doesn't feel thin. etc. And it does sound better through it than going directly to the amp from the audio source. The XSP-1 will go directly in to the Emotiva amps. So basically it acts as a hub. The front channels of your Denon stick in to it. But when you want to aviod the Denon and go to a 2 channel DAC it provides a pure fully balanced signal path. Plus if you buy XPA-1 L's the signal path with the XSP-1 is fully balanced. (This requires double the circuitry and is technically lower in distortion. Though not NECESSARILY audible.) NOw even though I feel the sound is better with the XSP-1 the real reason to get it is if you are planning to buy a two channel DAC. If you are not, then the XMC-1 is really the way to go. Forget the XSP-1. Some nice 2 channel DAC choices I've heard personally. DC-1. Oppo 105. (This specific DAC combined with the XSP-1 and XPA-1 Ls provides really good sound imo. Best I've heard. But it is $$$ ...buy the XSP-1 and the oppo you end up spending near as much as an XMC-1.) The ultimate DAC (Not heard it but I plan on buying it someday). Schiit Yggdrassil Also not heard but yves reccomends the eastern electric supreme DAC which is supposed to be an outsanding performer. There are also a lot of other fine choices that I haven't heard. Good call on the rear wall & you posted the best value panels available in your link , plus 1 , i bought my cloud in our 5 channel room from them & they sent an excellent product , even the eye hooks were EXACT to my requested location & size , all i had to do was unpack & attach the hooks to adjustable grow light hangers & ratchet the cloud into place , then replace the ugly hangers with brass chains for looks , approx 1 hour from start to finish hanging their cloud , excellent products . |
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Oct 24, 2015 17:12:03 GMT -5
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Post by highfihoney on Oct 24, 2015 17:12:03 GMT -5
Actually, Ethan Winner talks about that in his book. Regarding bookshelves, carpet, egg cartons, non-acustic foam, etc for acoustic purposes he calls them an internet myth and do not work. He has a pretty cool DIY section to help saving money instead of buying professional products that can be quite pricey. Just my 0.2 cents Right off the bat i question his logic that carpet & padding are a myth being both products are accoustically absorbitave materials , egg cartons are some elmer fudd stuff though lol . Got a link to this guy ? i'd like to read his reasoning behind what he says what will & will not disrupt sound wave energy . |
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Post by hemster on Oct 24, 2015 17:17:09 GMT -5
Actually, Ethan Winner talks about that in his book. Regarding bookshelves, carpet, egg cartons, non-acustic foam, etc for acoustic purposes he calls them an internet myth and do not work. He has a pretty cool DIY section to help saving money instead of buying professional products that can be quite pricey. Just my 0.2 cents Right off the bat i question his logic that carpet & padding are a myth being both products are accoustically absorbitave materials , egg cartons are some elmer fudd stuff though lol . Got a link to this guy ? i'd like to read his reasoning behind what he says what will & will not disrupt sound wave energy . |
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Post by highfihoney on Oct 24, 2015 17:24:01 GMT -5
Thank you , I shall read him when I take another break from painting this kitchen .
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Post by novisnick on Oct 24, 2015 19:07:51 GMT -5
Thank you , I shall read him when I take another break from painting this kitchen . Paint up, left,,,,,,,,,,,paint down, right!!! PAINT,,,,,PAINT,,,,,,PAINT!!!!!!  |
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Oct 24, 2015 23:19:59 GMT -5
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Post by highfihoney on Oct 24, 2015 23:19:59 GMT -5
Right off the bat i question his logic that carpet & padding are a myth being both products are accoustically absorbitave materials , egg cartons are some elmer fudd stuff though lol . Got a link to this guy ? i'd like to read his reasoning behind what he says what will & will not disrupt sound wave energy . Wow good link , i wish i could respond but theres alot here to read through & thats not going to happen in a quick glance , i will read this & let you know what i make out of it , one thing for surs is ethan knows his s#it . |
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Post by highfihoney on Oct 24, 2015 23:25:59 GMT -5
Thank you , I shall read him when I take another break from painting this kitchen . Paint up, left,,,,,,,,,,,paint down, right!!! PAINT,,,,,PAINT,,,,,,PAINT!!!!!! View AttachmentWax on wax off like a fool i stepped from the counter over to the island & my foot slipped off the island & tore my shin up , now ive got a skint shin & teal paint fleks on my head & still have to drive 1.5 hours to get back to our other house , my old butt is going to sleep like a baby when i get home , this will be the last yr i winterize our homes & prep them in the spring , next year im subbing this crap out because im getting way too old to be falling off ladders  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 23:41:40 GMT -5
Wax on wax off like a fool i stepped from the counter over to the island & my foot slipped off the island & tore my shin up , now ive got a skint shin & teal paint fleks on my head & still have to drive 1.5 hours to get back to our other house , my old butt is going to sleep like a baby when i get home , this will be the last yr i winterize our homes & prep them in the spring , next year im subbing this crap out because im getting way too old to be falling off ladders Clumsy old geezer! |
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Post by highfihoney on Oct 24, 2015 23:50:55 GMT -5
I blame the booze , loud music & left handed smokes for me falling I've rethunk driving 70 miles to get back to the wife & am staying at this house for the night , last thing I need is a dui or hurting somebody , I'm gonna call the wife & explain I'm a bit too hammered to drive, I only drank a pint & 2 leftys all day but I'm sure I'm over the limit & i'd rather play it safe , can't risk hurting myself or others , I'm really gonna feel this leg in the morning |
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