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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 18, 2016 14:45:03 GMT -5
...Fatter wire is almost always better. I wouldn't go as thin as 18 gauge - even for ten feet - even though technically the resistance of ten feet of even 18 gauge wire is pretty low. 10' of 18ga. wire has a resistance of 0.064 ohms. That's 1.6% of the 4-ohm speaker impedance. Shouldn't be enough to worry about. |
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Post by geebo on Jan 18, 2016 14:54:10 GMT -5
...Fatter wire is almost always better. I wouldn't go as thin as 18 gauge - even for ten feet - even though technically the resistance of ten feet of even 18 gauge wire is pretty low. 10' of 18ga. wire has a resistance of 0.064 ohms. That's 1.6% of the 4-ohm speaker impedance. Shouldn't be enough to worry about. Sure it would be okay. Be we all know you wouldn't use it.  |
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Post by yves on Jan 18, 2016 15:15:55 GMT -5
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Post by MusicHead on Jan 18, 2016 17:05:08 GMT -5
An "improvement" in the -3dB response from 478kHz to 1700KHz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought we were talking about speakers, not AM radio antennas  . The discussion about differences in phase may make more sense. But even that, if the impedances being used are those of the drivers only, not the crossover + driver, it is a non realistic simulation. When bi-wiring you are still going through the crossover, even if it is the two woofer and tweeter separate sections. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 18, 2016 17:17:29 GMT -5
In most cases, yes. With my particular speakers, I believe the three woofers are run full-range without any series inductor or bypass capacitor.
That would provide the most amplifier control...
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Post by trevordj on Jan 18, 2016 18:23:30 GMT -5
An "improvement" in the -3dB response from 478kHz to 1700KHz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought we were talking about speakers, not AM radio antennas . The discussion about differences in phase may make more sense. But even that, if the impedances being used are those of the drivers only, not the crossover + driver, it is a non realistic simulation. When bi-wiring you are still going through the crossover, even if it is the two woofer and tweeter separate sections. I thought that was funny too  . I thought it was a joke at first. The shift in phase from 0.5 degrees to 2.5 degrees they refer to is inaudible. Even a shift of 90 degrees is usually inaudible. It is arguable whether phase shifts even matter (usually they matter in the context of relative phase of one driver to another associated with crossover design). |
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Post by yves on Jan 18, 2016 19:11:20 GMT -5
{snip} seperate cables that MUST BE SEPERATED BY AN INCH OR SO for biwiring to work. {snip} Wrong.  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 18, 2016 19:42:22 GMT -5
{snip} seperate cables that MUST BE SEPERATED BY AN INCH OR SO for biwiring to work. {snip} Wrong. What audiosyndrome is trying to say is that although you can biwire with twisted pairs, the effects of having separate conductors don't become significantly apparent until the conductors are separated by an inch or more. Otherwise, the electrical field of the current flowing through one pair of conductors interferes with the current in the other pair sufficiently to lose the separation that one is bi-wiring for in the first place. Is it so? I don't know. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 18, 2016 19:45:38 GMT -5
10' of 18ga. wire has a resistance of 0.064 ohms. That's 1.6% of the 4-ohm speaker impedance. Shouldn't be enough to worry about. Sure it would be okay. Be we all know you wouldn't use it. I might surprise you... |
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Post by geebo on Jan 18, 2016 20:51:10 GMT -5
I might surprise you... If you used 18 gauge wire for 10' speaker runs in your main system then yes, it would surprise me. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jan 18, 2016 21:37:54 GMT -5
{snip} seperate cables that MUST BE SEPERATED BY AN INCH OR SO for biwiring to work. {snip} Wrong. Not saying your cable won't work, but it is certainly the polar opposite of what I'm suggesting. Russ |
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DYohn
Emo VIPs 
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Post by DYohn on Jan 19, 2016 0:28:03 GMT -5
Yes, exactly. All the justifications you read in the audiophile webz for bi-wiring relies on pseudoscience mumbo-jumbo. There is no legitimate electrical reason why bi-wiring does anything other than increase the effective wire gauge of the interconnect. DYohn- you mean in your opinion All the justifications........ Because in my opinion you're wrong. Biwiring is based on an exact science. That being that the magnetic fields generated by the low and high frequency currents interact with each other causing an intermodulation distortion. Biwiring may eliminate this distortion as the high and low frequency currents run in seperate cables that MUST BE SEPERATED BY AN INCH OR SO for biwiring to work. Weather you, me, or others can or cannot hear a difference is immaterial to the science. I could hear slight differences with my biwired Vandersteen 3As and my triwired Hyperion 938Ws. Russ Huh? That is total nonsense. |
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Post by yves on Jan 19, 2016 6:15:05 GMT -5
An "improvement" in the -3dB response from 478kHz to 1700KHz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought we were talking about speakers, not AM radio antennas . The discussion about differences in phase may make more sense. But even that, if the impedances being used are those of the drivers only, not the crossover + driver, it is a non realistic simulation. When bi-wiring you are still going through the crossover, even if it is the two woofer and tweeter separate sections. The first paragraph of the article states: "Lets avoid this debate for the moment and examine the circuit differences between simply doubling-up the speaker cable and then biwiring it". The cable that was used as an example to examine these circuit differences was a double 11 AWG ZIP cable. Recall that the analysis assumed a perfect voltage and current source for the amplifier except for .2 ohms output impedance. The loudspeaker load was also purely resistive, which is never the case in the real world. So yes, of course it is a non realistic simulation. That is a fact. In the real-world, the circuit differences can become audible exactly because of this fact. If you read the article about short vs. long cables, then you will understand this. So please don't try to dismiss the articles with your funny remarks before having properly read these articles first. |
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Post by yves on Jan 19, 2016 6:51:49 GMT -5
What audiosyndrome is trying to say is that although you can biwire with twisted pairs, the effects of having separate conductors don't become significantly apparent until the conductors are separated by an inch or more. Otherwise, the electrical field of the current flowing through one pair of conductors interferes with the current in the other pair sufficiently to lose the separation that one is bi-wiring for in the first place. Is it so? I don't know. What I am saying is you can bi-wire with a single twisted "quad-star" instead of with two separated twisted pairs. One of the main ideas behind quad-star bi-wiring cables such as my inakustik Reference LS-1002 is that you *do* want the electromagnetic fields to interact; you just want them to interact in a kind of special way so that they mostly cancel eachother out, which gets rid of most of the interference.  |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 19, 2016 16:00:00 GMT -5
I'm seeing 16 gauge "speaker wire" zip cord for between $10 and $20 - for a 100 foot roll - so why settle for anything less? (My main objection to 18 gauge wire is that I've actually had a few binding posts and banana plugs that wouldn't tighten against the 18 gauge wire because it's too thin.) |
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Post by deltadube on Jan 19, 2016 22:18:43 GMT -5
I'm seeing 16 gauge "speaker wire" zip cord for between $10 and $20 - for a 100 foot roll - so why settle for anything less? (My main objection to 18 gauge wire is that I've actually had a few binding posts and banana plugs that wouldn't tighten against the 18 gauge wire because it's too thin.) nothing like big fat cables!!! |
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Post by badronald on Jan 19, 2016 22:42:10 GMT -5
The theory behind bi-wiring is that all speaker drivers have a certain amount of breakup, and that breakup or "pollution" is induced back into the cable and amplifier. When you bi-wire, this "pollution" will not cross contaminate. So any breakup from the woofer will not get back to the mid/tweeter, and vise vera.
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Post by badronald on Jan 19, 2016 22:43:41 GMT -5
I bi-wire using dual 8 gauge runs, each only 3 feet long. Probably overkill, but it sure looks cool!
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Post by Axis on Jan 19, 2016 23:06:08 GMT -5
The theory behind bi-wiring is that all speaker drivers have a certain amount of breakup, and that breakup or "pollution" is induced back into the cable and amplifier. When you bi-wire, this "pollution" will not cross contaminate. So any breakup from the woofer will not get back to the mid/tweeter, and vise vera. I have never heard this theory before. I remember when people would say (This was way before the internet) that clipping was the signal being forced back the other direction and it caused the amp to amplify the signal again and that double signal is what caused distortion. This is what others would tell me. Not what I said ! It may be true for all I know ! I have never really cared much about what is happening electronically. I just try to follow the rules that smart people advise and so far everything has worked out very good. With speaker wires, I have always used good thick wire that has a strong insolation and is not prone to corrosion. I have always only used one positive and one negative to any speaker I have ever own. There may be an exception to that for me with the Emersa EDA-7 7 channels 125 watt amplifier to the Airmotiv T1 towers. I would have two extra channels and I could use one channel for the woofers and one for the mid/tweeter. I do not like the thought of all the extra wires. As soon I find out the specs for the Emersa EDA's and T1's I will know if bi-amping for load purposes is needed. My thought now is to get 5 channels of XPA Gen 3 and one set of speaker wires it is. One set of 12 gauge oxygen free copper with bare wires to the terminals is all you need. Smart people told me that and I believe them. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 19, 2016 23:15:02 GMT -5
The theory behind bi-wiring is that all speaker drivers have a certain amount of breakup, and that breakup or "pollution" is induced back into the cable and amplifier. When you bi-wire, this "pollution" will not cross contaminate. So any breakup from the woofer will not get back to the mid/tweeter, and vise vera. I have never heard this theory before. I remember when people would say (This was way before the internet) that clipping was the signal being forced back the other direction and it caused the amp to amplify the signal again and that double signal is what caused distortion. This is what others would tell me. Not what I said ! It may be true for all I know ! I have never really cared much about what is happening electronically. I just try to follow the rules that smart people advise and so far everything has worked out very good. With speaker wires, I have always used good thick wire that has a strong insolation and is not prone to corrosion. I have always only used one positive and one negative to any speaker I have ever own. There may be an exception to that for me with the Emersa EDA-7 7 channels 125 watt amplifier to the Airmotiv T1 towers. I would have two extra channels and I could use one channel for the woofers and one for the mid/tweeter. I do not like the thought of all the extra wires. As soon I find out the specs for the Emersa EDA's and T1's I will know if bi-amping for load purposes is needed. My thought now is to get 5 channels of XPA Gen 3 and one set of speaker wires it is. One set of 12 gauge oxygen free copper with bare wires to the terminals is all you need. Smart people told me that and I believe them. I always wondered how did my baby teeth turn into coins overnight? And even more mystifying, not always the same denomination. And I would wonder how the heck Santa got into our house since we didn't have a chimney. My mom told me she would leave the front door unlocked so he could get in, which made no sense to me in light of how she told me to always make sure to lock the front door. Anyway, these things just came to mind, I don't know why. |
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. I thought it was a joke at first.
