Is Dirac useful for music?

[fludimir]

Hi all. I have multichannel system described in my signature, I use it mostly for music - stereo and multichannel. It sounds really good, I like it. However I have relatively small room for it - 17m2 - so room correction is very required. I got good results with PEQ in stereo, just decreased some big peaks from axial modes. I expected much more from Dirac.. but only sound I can get from it is awful boomy sound with lots of bass that overlaps all. I hear that Dirac fixes freqs that I tried to fix manually with PEQ but why it adds so much bass that sounds like poor subwoofer? This is mostly expressed with heavy music (which I mostly listen) with enough bass - hard rock, heavy metal, etc. Light genres sounds better, even more dimensional, but not perfect.
I tried to perform Dirac calibration number of times during past and this year and always getting same results. I tried different calibration files for emotiva mic (with Dirac LE) from anstat's signature (got even more bass) and even tried mic from another xmc - same result (however mics have difference in 3db!). The only thing that helped is tone controls in xmc - I lowered bass level there and it sounds better. But I dont think that room correction system works correct if I need to use bass control with it.
Is there a chance that I am doing something wrong? Is here anybody who listens music with Dirac and likes it more than Direct? 
I thought maybe I need to buy Dirac Full and/or calibrated mic like UMIK.. but that will be wasted 200$ if will work same. I can upload any measurements if it helps.

[frenchyfranky]

Hi fludimir hère is m'y thoughts about Dirac: emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/788966/thread

In your case, I suspect that something is wrong.

[klinemj]

I use Dirac for music and movies and love it. I use Dirac full and a UMIK.

Mark

[Talley]

I use my system with Dirac and Umik-1 also and I'm about 50% music. Love using the Dirac although the differences are not dramatic when you have a treated room and properly aligned speakers... it's a subtle improvement but I like it.

[wilburthegoose]

Absolutely it's useful for music.

[geebo]

Absolutely good for music. Even better than with movies.

With the full version you can adjust target curves to your liking. I had problems getting enough bass until I got the full version and a Cross Spectrum calibrated UMIK-1. The full version is easily worth the money.

[fludimir]

If you all are so happy why I get so bad results? I've read a lot of posts that bass is decreased with Dirac LE , but I have too much bass with it, which is main problem. I tried to use "Matched by math" calibration file and get even more bass, ie sound is even worse. I have maybe slight lack of bass in direct (I don't expect my "bookshelf" speakers to play 20Hz), but with Dirac I have a lot of poor quality bass.. which is not good at all

[Talley]

Must be user error. Dirac performs nicely in my system.

[monkumonku]

Jan 22, 2016 14:31:53 GMT -5 fludimir said:

If you all are so happy why I get so bad results? I've read a lot of posts that bass is decreased with Dirac LE , but I have too much bass with it, which is main problem. I tried to use "Matched by math" calibration file and get even more bass, ie sound is even worse. I have maybe slight lack of bass in direct (I don't expect my "bookshelf" speakers to play 20Hz), but with Dirac I have a lot of poor quality bass.. which is not good at all

What is this "matched by math" calibration file you mentioned? Are you using the microphone that came with the XMC-1 or a different mic? Is that calibration file specifically for the mic you are using?

[klinemj]

Jan 22, 2016 14:31:53 GMT -5 fludimir said:

If you all are so happy why I get so bad results? I've read a lot of posts that bass is decreased with Dirac LE , but I have too much bass with it, which is main problem. I tried to use "Matched by math" calibration file and get even more bass, ie sound is even worse. I have maybe slight lack of bass in direct (I don't expect my "bookshelf" speakers to play 20Hz), but with Dirac I have a lot of poor quality bass.. which is not good at all

It's hard to tell why you are getting poor results. One obvious thing to ask is what microphone orientation did you use? As I recall for Dirac LE, you are supposed to have your mic pointed to the ceiling. Another question is whether you measured several points or just 1, and if you did several - did you follow the recommended mic placements?

Also, I have found that with any room correction software, it helps to start with the speakers in their best possible placements, especially the sub. Have you done a sub crawl in your room? I have one spot in my room that if I put the sub there - I am asking for boomy bass (would need some treatments if I needed to put it there). That location is the front corner to my listening right. It is along a wall that terminates just in front of the seating position and opens up into an adjacent room and then continues to an open stairwell that leads upstairs. If I put the sub there and walk the room with a sound meter, not only is the volume several dB louder at my listening position than other locations - it sounds boomy. The more volume I run through the sub - the boomier it sounds in that location.

If I place my sub in pretty much any other position, that does not happen and my bass does not get boomy. Where mine is currently placed, which is between the FR/FL, if I walk the room with my SPL, all locations are within a dB of each other. And, the bass is tight and not the slightest bit muddy or boomy.

Another possibility is that your sub has trouble playing the target volumes. If you get the placement set well to start with and increase the sub's output with a test tone - how does it sound? Is it tight/well-controlled? Is it muddier/boomier with added volume? If so and if Dirac is boosting your bass, maybe the issue is that your sub is struggling to play the boosted level.

Mark

[jlafrenz]

Speakers, amps and room correction (Dirac) do not distinguish between music and movies from the information they receive.

If Dirac is beneficial in a room for movies, then it is likely beneficial in the same room for music as it is simply making corrections based upon the room to the signal (using the same components), not if the signal is music or a movie. An end user can distinguish what it wants the processor to do based upon the use, but this is not the same thing.

[fludimir]

Thanks all for help, let me put the things right:
I have Dirac LE and mic supplied with XMC-1 (just now I have two mics from two xmcs)
I used Dirac LE with its default calibration file and also tried "Matched by math" cal file from anstats emotivalounge.proboards.com/user/7882 sig
Mic was pointed to the ceiling, measured all 9 points straight in recommended placements.
I did number of measurements in different time (maybe 5-10 times during past year), even tried another speakers - there were differences but lots-of-poor-bass issue always happens
I also tried 1 point calibration in dirac - same result; actually all experimental measurements (like with another mic or another cal file ) were only for 1 point
I know how to place speakers in room, spent a lot of time with my ears, mic and REW to find best place for them and have no mud-boomy bass in direct mode
My speakers configured as large and with monoblocks they can handle normal bass without any issues
And I have no sub , I mostly listen 2.0 music

[minthral]

I think it's subjective. You want a specific sound and Dirac isn't giving it to you. It will balance things out, but your speakers are a baseline.

You might have a mismatch in room and speaker choice. Dirac will not save you from this.

You could try custom target curves. This worked for me. I initially like ref stereo music, but kind of switching to Dirac stereo or PIIx.

[wilburthegoose]

FWIW, I found Dirac Full to knock the socks off of LE. For me, the secret was the ability to play with the house curves.

[novisnick]

Jan 22, 2016 19:39:55 GMT -5 wilburthegoose said:

FWIW, I found Dirac Full to knock the socks off of LE. For me, the secret was the ability to play with the house curves.

Thats great, maybe later this spring I'll find some time to play with the curve. I am enjoying the house curve for now,,,,,,,and its great!!

Funny thing is, I set one of my settings by ear and it sounds identical to the Dirac readings.

Clarification; Im talking about two channel,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[ansat]

Jan 22, 2016 17:57:34 GMT -5 fludimir said:

Thanks all for help, let me put the things right:
I have Dirac LE and mic supplied with XMC-1 (just now I have two mics from two xmcs)
I used Dirac LE with its default calibration file and also tried "Matched by math" cal file from anstats emotivalounge.proboards.com/user/7882 sig
Mic was pointed to the ceiling, measured all 9 points straight in recommended placements.
I did number of measurements in different time (maybe 5-10 times during past year), even tried another speakers - there were differences but lots-of-poor-bass issue always happens
I also tried 1 point calibration in dirac - same result; actually all experimental measurements (like with another mic or another cal file ) were only for 1 point
I know how to place speakers in room, spent a lot of time with my ears, mic and REW to find best place for them and have no mud-boomy bass in direct mode
My speakers configured as large and with monoblocks they can handle normal bass without any issues
And I have no sub , I mostly listen 2.0 music

since your familiar with rew, can you get me a with and without dirac measurement? Also, when you were running rew, do you have another mic? While rare, we did have a few instances where we found bad microphones. They measured like a hill makinging the speakera way bright, and way too much bass. Again, this was rare with the number of measurements that i looked through.

Tony

[fludimir]

Here all measurements drive.google.com/file/d/0B1Q55deL45peTmU5YzlVWTRsUUE/view?usp=sharing - all done in 17m2 room so room modes greatly affecting response.. I dunno what cal file better to use so didn't used any
As was said before I thought maybe I have bad mic so tried mic from another xmc - got boomy sound again.

Jan 22, 2016 19:39:55 GMT -5 wilburthegoose said:

FWIW, I found Dirac Full to knock the socks off of LE. For me, the secret was the ability to play with the house curves.

Dirac Full makes better result without adjusting target curve, or only because of ability to change curve?

[wilburthegoose]

Both. Full enables individual channel sensitivity settings and full control over target curves.

[fludimir]

What is 'individual channel sensitivity'? If its about each channel volume level I have no issues with that

[ansat]

Jan 23, 2016 10:14:10 GMT -5 fludimir said:

Here all measurements drive.google.com/file/d/0B1Q55deL45peTmU5YzlVWTRsUUE/view?usp=sharing - all done in 17m2 room so room modes greatly affecting response.. I dunno what cal file better to use so didn't used any
As was said before I thought maybe I have bad mic so tried mic from another xmc - got boomy sound again.

Jan 22, 2016 19:39:55 GMT -5 wilburthegoose said:

FWIW, I found Dirac Full to knock the socks off of LE. For me, the secret was the ability to play with the house curves.

Dirac Full makes better result without adjusting target curve, or only because of ability to change curve?

Thanks, Dirac Full, will give you the ability to customize beyond the house curve. There is really not much more you will gain.


Looking at the REW that you posted, I don't see a ton of difference. In fact the direc LE run with the standard calibration has less bass then direct. There was a boost to 80hz, but all the room excitement was at 60hz, but that exists in both direct and dirac LE. The other major boost was at 168hz, but both are producing a relatively flat response. Check your trims, whatever you are hearing is not making it into the measurements.

Tony