XMC-1 and Oppo 103 (non darbee) questions

[routlaw]

I known this has been brought up before but I still don't have a clear understanding of a few things which I hope can be easily answered without a lot of fanfare. I couldn't find the exact answer needed looking through the archives either.

As the subject line states I have the non Darbee edition of the Oppo 103 and my questions relate to video and audio connections from the Oppo to the XMC-1.

Like others I want to attain the best video and audio experience and as such I have routed an HDMI cable from the the Oppo HDMI/2 output to the XMC-1 HDMI/2 input and also routed another HDMI cable from the Oppo HDMI/1 output to the XMC-1 HDMI/1 input. Easy enough. Oppo settings are split A/V signal as instructed, not utilizing dual displays. On the two HDMI outputs, HDMI/1 out goes to my Epson projector, while a second HDMI cable feeds a Vizio TV that is mounted behind my audio stand. The Vizio is only used for my Mac Mini music server as a display and to implement various settings for other devices using a large screen, i.e. XMC-1 setup menus etc.

What is not clear to me in the above description, is the HDMI 1 output actually feeding the video to the projector, when I choose the HDMI 2 (XMC-1 input 2) as the audio source. According to the display screen on the XMC-1 it states both video and audio are being sent out from HDMI 2 output. Not exactly what I wanted. I had hoped that I could choose HDMI 1 out, then in settings choose HDMI 2 as the audio out but this is NOT possible. 

If I am correct in assuming the worst here, other options are to directly connect the Oppo HDMI/1 output to the projector, but the problem with that is all of the other devices (Apple TV, Channel Master Tuner, or Mac Mini if desired) do not have access to the projector unless I go back to using a separate HDMI switcher as I have done in the past with inputs from the other devices which outputs to the Oppo HDMI input. This was one of the main reasons other than improved performance that I wanted to include the XMC-1 into the loop, simplification. But effectively its looking like a took up the complexity another notch or two. 

Initially I had the understanding that setting the Oppo to split A/V would eliminate any video from the the HDMI 2 out, while also not allowing audio out of the HDMI 1 out. Have I misunderstood the situation?

Thanks

[Deleted]

There is really no gain to do it this way. Hdmi has more than enough bandwidth to pass audio and video at the same time.
Somewhere you'd want to do this is of you were trying to pass a 3d signal but your avr or prepro isn't 3d capable. Aside from this scenario I can't imagine why you run both outputs from the oppo.

[Deleted]

Also to consider the Marvell chip in the oppo only acts on the hdmi output 1. So output 2 is a clean pass through as well as the xmc. I've noticed from my 103 that on blurays the picture is sharper without the Marvell processing. It adds a touch of smoothing to the picture.

[routlaw]

Jan 24, 2016 18:03:10 GMT -5 fattykidd said:

Also to consider the Marvell chip in the oppo only acts on the hdmi output 1. So output 2 is a clean pass through as well as the xmc. I've noticed from my 103 that on blurays the picture is sharper without the Marvell processing. It adds a touch of smoothing to the picture.

I'm am aware the Marvell Qdeo chip is only output on the HDMI 1 out, but according to Oppo if you want the best audio and the best video they recommend using the two HDMI outputs. I haven't noticed any smoothing on the HDMI out but then have not taken the time to scrutinize the difference either. That said it was my understanding early on the Qdeo chip had more to do with color/motion.

[routlaw]

Jan 24, 2016 18:00:02 GMT -5 fattykidd said:

There is really no gain to do it this way. Hdmi has more than enough bandwidth to pass audio and video at the same time.
Somewhere you'd want to do this is of you were trying to pass a 3d signal but your avr or prepro isn't 3d capable. Aside from this scenario I can't imagine why you run both outputs from the oppo.

Just an FYI, per the Oppo Manual from a screen grab. The way I understand it Oppo believes one can benefit from two HDMI outs as shown here.

[total2727]

That is they way I have mine, hdmi for audio to xmc, and hdmi directly to my projector.

[Deleted]

Can you not set output 2 to "audio only" ?
Also as stated above.. Why not skip the xmc with output 1 all together ? Go straight from oppo to pj, audio only on oppo output 2. Set xmc to whatever input the audio is set on. Done. I did do this for a while when I first got my oppo 103 and saw zero effective gain so went back to single oppo output as I suggested in my first post.

[hemster]

Jan 24, 2016 21:46:10 GMT -5 total2727 said:

That is they way I have mine, hdmi for audio to xmc, and hdmi directly to my projector.

I do the same... HDMI 1 to the projector and HDMI 2 to XMC-1 for audio. 

[mdrconsult]

I have an Oppo 103D, and I was wanting to do something very similar, but for slightly different reason. I spoke with the folks at Emotive and was told I couldn't do what you are wanting to do. Basically I wanted to run the 2 HDMI connections from the Oppo (1 video and 1 audio) to my XMC-1. My thought was that on a given HDMI input you can select the audio input to use. However, that selection does not include different HDMI port. The reason I wanted to do this is that I am running all of my video sources (Cable TV and Apple TV) through my Oppo to get the Darby processing, but I didn't want to run the video from my Oppo straight to my TV because I would loose the XMC-1 OSD features, which I do like. They suggested that there would be no real improvement if I went with split video/audio, but me being the skeptic that I am I had to test it. To be quite honest I saw nor heard any discernible difference between using the split AV method or just using a single cable. I have ultimately settled on using a single cable from the Oppo to the XMC-1 which then send the video to me TV.

[routlaw]

Thanks for all the comments, but to reiterate from my original post I have copied and pasted one situation that is looking unavoidable unfortunately.

Regardless I will scrutinize this evening the various scenarios we've discussed to determine audio and video differences between all the different possible connections. Also and this might be of interest to all concerned, somewhere along the line I have read that Oppo HDMI 1/Out will NOT pass DSD signals, and I believe its is a bit more limited in its PCM bandwidth too. This may not be an issue for some but ideally I wanted to keep all the best audio possibilities intact.

"... other options are to directly connect the Oppo HDMI/1 output to the projector, but the problem with that is all of the other devices (Apple TV, Channel Master Tuner, or Mac Mini if desired) do not have access to the projector unless I go back to using a separate HDMI switcher as I have done in the past with inputs from the other devices which outputs to the Oppo HDMI input. This was one of the main reasons other than improved performance that I wanted to include the XMC-1 into the loop, simplification. But effectively its looking like a took up the complexity another notch or two"

[mdrconsult]

Hi routlaw,

In your last post, you said you thought that the Oppo won't pass DSD over HDMI 1. I do not believe that to be accurate as I am currently doing just that. Furthermore, I could find nowhere in the documentation that stated anything to that effect. The only thing special about HDMI 1 that I know of is that it is the port that the advanced video processing (Darby and/or Marvell) takes place. You should verify that for yourself with your testing. Personally, I find that sending bit stream and allowing the XMC-1 (with Dirac) to do the processing produces the best sound for me. I am sure that is a function of my less then optimal room acoustics that Dirac is overcoming.

Please let us know how your tests go.

Regards,
Mark

[millst]

Unfortunately, the XMC-1 doesn't mix HDMI audio and video from two sources so you'll probably want dual mode:

1) Leave both cables connected. You can use HDMI2 to listen to DSD and other audio only stuff. Use HDMI1 for anything with video. You'll get the Marvell video processing and your sound won't be worse (there is plenty of bandwidth for movies).

2) If you don't care about Marvell, then just use one cable from the second output.

3) If you don't care about DSD, use only the first output.

The split mode is really meant to have the first output go directly to your display. You'll lose the XMC-1 OSD and make your setup more complicated. It's a great feature for someone that has a 3D TV, but doesn't have a receiver with 3D support.

-tm

[millst]

Jan 25, 2016 13:53:35 GMT -5 mdrconsult said:

Hi routlaw,

In your last post, you said you thought that the Oppo won't pass DSD over HDMI 1. I do not believe that to be accurate as I am currently doing just that. Furthermore, I could find nowhere in the documentation that stated anything to that effect. The only thing special about HDMI 1 that I know of is that it is the port that the advanced video processing (Darby and/or Marvell) takes place. You should verify that for yourself with your testing. Personally, I find that sending bit stream and allowing the XMC-1 (with Dirac) to do the processing produces the best sound for me. I am sure that is a function of my less then optimal room acoustics that Dirac is overcoming.

Please let us know how your tests go.

Regards,
Mark

It's a limitation of the Marvell chip. Are you converting DSD to PCM?

watershade.net/wmcclain/BDP-103-faq.html#does-the-player-output-sacd-dsd

-tm

[routlaw]

XMC-1 & Oppo 103 update: Called Oppo late yesterday afternoon to get the scooty and take on all this.

I was told the following, HDMI 1 out definitely does NOT output DSD, other than that, audio from HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 are identical and there is plenty of bandwidth to output both video and audio at least for 7.2 surround on HDMI 1. Effectively based upon the conversation with the customer service person other than the need for DSD output there really is no reason not to use HDMI 1 for both video and audio. While I don't want to denigrate the company, as I think they make a great product for a reasonable amount of money, clearly on this issue they have created much unnecessary confusion and angst among their customers based upon how the owners manual is written. They really should officially clarify this on their website since they do not support a user forum.

With this in mind I didn't bother to spend anytime last night comparing audio output from the two HDMI ports, but did some extensive comparisons between HDMI 1 & 2 for video quality. For this test I left all sound muted, and turned off to eliminate any outside influence, or fatigue. I chose two films in Blu Ray, Hugo and Casino Royale. I really like the first 5 minutes of playback on Hugo for its deep rich color, fast and extreme camera movements, chiaroscuro lighting and closeup detail shots. They really throw a lot at you in that first five minutes and its done beautifully. For Casino Royale I used chapter two that begins with the chase scene at the snake pit in Madagascar right to the moment where Daniel Craig blows up the embassy. Again lots of extreme motion and camera movements, deep color from daylight scenes as well as interiors with a few closeups. Surely between the two of these films something had to emerge that exhibited superior image quality with HDMI 1 output using the Marvell Qdeo video chip.

Verdict: I honestly could not tell one iota of difference between HDMI 1 & 2 for video, or if I could it was so minuscule it seemed delusional on my part. Expectation bias? Understand too I have made a career out of photography for well over 30 years, have some extremely picky clients who demand excellent image quality and precise color fidelity. If there is a difference I can't see it on my existing projector using the Oppo 103.

These results piqued my curiosity even more so I spent sometime on Marvell's website to determine what they consider to be superior with their chip. And while they provide some A/B comparisons they also do not tell you what exactly it is they are comparing their images to. Digging a bit deeper I found some online comments that implied little to any processing is going on for 1920x1080p sources, while quite a bit of processing really is happening for standard def sources with these chips.

The moral of the story, at least for me, there is a lot of product hype within this industry that often doesn't live up to the purported claims.

I hope this helps others to have a better understanding. For now, I'm leaving my connections as stated at the beginning with both HDMI ports from the Oppo and will continue to use them accordingly.

[millst]

A much better test would be to pick a poorly mastered DVD and see which looks better. The quality on a Blu-ray is so high that the difference between the worst player and best is usually minuscule to none. If you never watch DVD, then maybe something that is broadcast-based (major films are always going to be 1080p24).

I imagine the manual was written when the device came out, when that was very good advice, and has never been updated.

-tm

[routlaw]

You're right, but we rarely if ever watch DVD material anymore. But we do watch a few broadcast shows via either our Channel Master tuner, the only one that does 1080p and with a completely non compressed signal or via our Apple TV which also does 1080p with few exceptions. Effectively I'm inclined to believe for us it really isn't a big deal given what we do view. Thanks for the comments.

[mdrconsult]

Mills,

I went to the link you provided to read about the DSD over HDMI 1 of the Oppo 103. And it states, "This is a hardware restriction: the HDMI transmitter in the Qdeo video processor that drives the HDMI1 port does not support DSD audio." However, I have a 103D which does not use the Qdeo video processor which may explain why I'm getting DSD out of HDMI1. Sorry for the confusion on my earlier post.

That You, for that link as it has some interesting information. I'm wondering if there is a 103D version.

[millst]

Ah, that's right. I was only thinking in the context of thread (non-Darbee). None of the Darbee models have the Marvell processor and should output DSD on either output.

-tm

[aussie21]

From oppo 103d instruction book. Due to the hardware limitation, DSD output is only available from the HDMI 2 output port. To listen to SACD usind the HDMI 1  set SACD out put to PCM