How do you set your speakers up for perfect imaging?

[brockjon]

I've looked into this topic on Google and YouTube, trying to find a system for setting up speakers for perfect imaging.  I know ideally it should be an equilateral triangle.  But that doesn't speak to whether, and if so how much, the speakers should be toed in (or not).  While the simple answer is to "just play around with it until it sounds right", I'm sure there has to be a better way.  Plus, when the speakers are extraordinarily heavy, this approach isn't necessarily so easy.

Is there a reference CD/track or something else specifically designed to be used to scientifically determine the proper placement for each speaker (e.g., for correct phase alignment and proper balance)?  I have high end mics and recording gear - seems to me I should be able to use it for this purpose...somehow.

So barring the "just play around with it until it sounds right" answers, what system do you use to place your speakers?

[repeetavx]

Unfortunately there is not a simple answer. The same speaker in different rooms will require different placement.

One of the simplest ways is to play a monophonic program and adjust the speakers for the least amount of boom and glare; and the strongest cohereance of the center "image"

You just have to play some music, toe in, or out, your speaker another degree or two and listen again. As a matter of fact this exersice will teach you a lot about room interaction and what type of room treatments you'll probably need. I think you'll find that small amounts of movement with your speakers will yield different acoustic results. What I found interesting is that as I toe-in my speakers (in and out), different instruments would "pop out" or recede into the mix.

This is a tedious process that most of us here have done.

I'm looking forward to seeing if anyone else knows of a shortcut to this process.

[boomzilla]

I'd add to the excellent reply by repeetavx - Mono signal should provide an anchored center image, but I find that I learn more about the room by reversing the speaker leads on ONE of the two speakers. This provides an "out of phase" stereo signal. If the speakers are symmetrically placed in a symmetrical room, you should hear a mono signal (with the speakers out of phase) as two different, widely spaced images. One should be outside the right speaker, the other, equally loud and clear, outside the left speaker.

The Stereophile Test CD (first one) has the famous "dog bark test" that will suffice, and since the recording reverses the phase for you, you don't even have to rewire the speakers!

If you don't get "beyond the speakers" images with the out of phase test, then you need to work on speaker placement and/or room symmetry. How far outside the speakers and how clearly the outside images are heard gives a really (REALLY) good test of how well the speakers will image with "normal" stereo program. I'd go so far as to say that the out of phase test is the best tool I've heard for optimizing speaker imaging.

You'll still have to move the speakers for the optimum results, but this is an excellent (and seriously time-saving) method for optimizing imaging.

Boomzilla

[frenchyfranky]

Sorry to tell you this, but the only way I found efficient for speakers placement over my 35 audiophile years is to trust your ears and try and try again and again and again, 1 inch front, 1 inch back, 1 inch side, the other side, toe in, toe out, I'm gonna be crazy, and a few hours later because the afternoon passed very fast, eureka, I got it, I think this is the good one, WTF, is this only half inch change everything so much...? Yes

Welcome to the world of the audiophile, it could be a nightmare and an heaven.

[jmilton]

I have always dreamed of making a toe-in device.

Think of it as 2 electronic "Lazy Susan" platters that you set your towers on. Make sure with a laser/tape that they are equi-distanced and pointing dead forward. Now, from your chair at the golden triangle position, you have a remote (or an App, yeah!) and by hitting the + button, the speakers rotate very slowly in. By hitting the - button they rotate out. Now you can just sit in your sweet spot and dial them in to whatever sound stage floats your barge. I would call it the Miltonator (my name combined with rotator).


Of course, that's an impossible dream...but I can still dream.

[audiobill]

I first place them in an equilateral triangle to my listening spot, then move them back and forth for smoothest bass (start with front of each speaker about 30" from front wall), then point them at a spot 4-5' BEHIND my listening spot. Tweeters at ear level.

Then start making very small adjustments to taste, in the order above. Put masking tape down at each change. The goal is to optimize smooth bass and imaging/soundstaging.

Use a steel tape to measure at each step, 1" can make a difference.

From my listening spot, the tape describes an arc that traces the front of each speaker, and you should see a very small amount of the inside wall of each speaker.

Only when this is done, place a subwoofer using REW or other software, or the crawl test.

Rinse and repeat.

[garbulky]

If it's for home use I would reccomend a wide soundstage. The way i do it is if you point your arms direct in front of you and then go about 30 to 40 degrees out that's how wide the speakers should be. Experiment by ear.

[jlafrenz]

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/19452/faq-speaker-placement-calibration

[brutiarti]

For my speakers there is no toe in. They should face straightforward and then play with the distance from the back wall for desired bass. Of course tweeters at ear level.

[pedrocols]

Good recommendations!

[pedrocols]

I place the speakers to get the "best" low bass response first. For the most part depending on the room there are going to be se compromises.

[Axis]

Lot of good suggestions in this thread. Like frenchyfranky says, it can take some time and get yourself a method of keeping track of what you try.

More advice is do not try to get it right all at once. Who knows you may get it right in few minutes but don't wear yourself out if you don't. I have been in my apartment for 15 years with my towers in the same part of the room and I still grab them and try something new sometimes. I know where to put them back real easy because of the spike indents in the carpet. It's forward and back, sideways and apart. Go all directions. I like to put speakers up against the longest wall in the room if there is one and available. Not advised to put both speakers equal distance away from side walls. Take a mirror and check for direct reflections of the speakers forward of the speakers both sides of the listening area. Don't sweat it if there are but it always helps to have as little reflections of sound waves as possible before the sound gets to your ears. Big glass picture widows are evil. I cover mine with thick cloth sheets. No WAF here.

[vneal]

Put the speakers in the general area you want them. Sit in your listening area not with a TEST RECORD but with music you normally prefer. Best results usually are with the listening position close to centered. Then experiment first with the amount they are pulled out from the wall.Have the speakers not toed in at this time. When you get the best results to YOUR EARS. Then experiment with the amount if any they are toed in. You listen with your ears so why not use your ears for small adjustments?

[lionear]

Agree with all these points. Not all speakers like toe in. Some speakers need to be absolutely flat with respect to each other (e.g. Genesis). Some speakers like the equilateral triangle approach, others sound better with an isosceles triangle (that's what Focal recommends on their web site).

I also suggest moving the speakers out into the room. Magnepans may need about 1m of clear space behind them. So too would Martin Logan's, I think. But strangely, Wilson speakers need to be close to the back wall, and in the corners.

Audio Physic (speaker manufacturer) has proposed a very interesting approach. The room is a rectangular shape, right? Normally, the speakers will be placed off the short side and fire into the long length. But hey say set the speakers on the long side - this takes the first reflection off the side wall out of play (your brain does this because there's a big delay between the reflected and the primary sound from the speaker). No toe-in on one speaker. Play music. Toe in the other speaker until the soundstage pops into focus. If it doesn't, then move that speaker slightly closer or further away from the other speaker, and start again with no toe in, then set more and more toe in until the soundstage pops into focus. A dealer demo'd this to me and I must say that it works. The soundstage is different - one feels really close to the band. But it looks funny - one speaker toed in, the other not at all. You might like this, you might not.

Taking a mono signal and checking the center image will get you close.  But I think one needs to use stereo recordings that have a real soundstage.  The recordings by labels like Reference Recordings, Wilson, and the modern reissues of the old recordings are great.  And Opus 3 released some test LP's that were very nicely recorded, and aimed at adjusting the speakers. They're available on CD - www.opus3records.com/cd_samp.html

And I think the best advice I've seen on this thread is: take your time, and move the speakers a tiny bit at a time.

[509Paul]

I have found that using a laser level that has a vertical beam helps a lot for equal toe in adjustments. Just put tape on the wall behind your listening position and mark the center point. Measuring out equally in both directions from that point and making 1" marks on tape for adjusting the toe helps insure the image is centered easily as long as you use the same reference spot on each speaker.

[wizardofoz]

definitely start making with strips of tape on the floor in a grid if you can and make notes of the grid location and toe in/out etc.

jim smith's get better sound book and optional DVD is a place to start. its not that expensive and provides a good amount of advise too.

getbettersound.com/index.php

[Timster]

Some great suggestions here, and a number I will play with to see if I can get some improvments.
I personally have done/do the following:
- Set the speakers in about the right location (where they need to be for your room :-) ) toed in maybe 10-15 degrees.
- Using a tape measure make sure that they are equi-distant from centre and toed in the same amount
- Play Jennifer Warnes "Joan of Arc" from her Famous Blue Raincoat album
- Adjust as required to get her right in the centre.

It's really obvious when you get it right.

I know and love this track, and it has shown me other issues with less than stellar performance from sources and amps, easily demonstrates out of phase and is a great low end track with a 34hz bottom end to see how your sub fits in.

Cheers
Tim

[bluemeanies]

Well it seems everyone knows what they are doing. Lots of good information.
audiobill stole my thunder.
Exactly what Bill has recommended is the way I have set up my 803D's.
Have patience especially if you are in a big room.
I might add as far as a test cd, a female vocal artist would be my choice, sitting in the sweet spot. Once you made a determination that your are happy with the sound mark the area surrounding the speakers. This is in the event you have to move them for one reason or another.
Or just remember before you do move them to mark the location with tape.
Remember your room is very important. Size, dimensions, hard and soft surfaces that can reflect or absorb. Direct going to the listener while reflected sounds bounce off the walls and furniture.
Sidewall location or distance plays a big role with your midrange performance while the distance from the back walls effects the bass.
Also the distance from the back wall should not equal the distance from the side walls.
Lastly you may have to compromise and that's ok. Textbook applications are hard to follow to the letter when considering your room dimensions.

One more note...you may have to change positioning of you speakers after there break in time of around a 100 hours...maybe not but don't be surprised if you notice a sudden change in what your hear as your speakers get easier to move air.

Enjoy.