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Post by yves on Mar 5, 2016 5:45:22 GMT -5
The DACs we use in the DC-1, and the XDA-2, and the XMC-1, were chosen because they have a very neutral sound (so do the DACs in the Oppo 103). The Oppo 105 uses a Sabre DAC, which is another one of the high-end DAC chips available these days. Sabre DACs have a slight coloration - which some people like and others do not. Sabre DACs tend to emphasize transients slightly, which makes them sound either "more detailed" or "slightly etched" - depending on whether you like that particular sound or not. (Note that this is a SUBTLE difference; and both in general sound very good.) I bought an OPPO 103D for the Blu ray quality , unfortunately I wasn't concerned with DAC''s Fast forward 6 months. Looking to invest is a good quality DAC, So my question is how good is the DAC from the OPPO 105? Is it worth the upgrade or should I purchase to the Emotiva's Stealth DC-1 IMO not all Sabre DACs tend to emphasize transients. A better explanation IMO is the ES9018 chip has such high dynamic range that, by comparison, other DAC chips tend to compress transients. If it sounds "etched", it is because the vast majority of Sabre DACs, including well-known Oppo Blu-ray players (BDP-95 and BDP-105), implement the ES9018 chip in a bit of a poor way compared to my Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Supreme, at least to my ears. Generalizations of "Sabre DACs have a slight coloration" are close to meaningless when you haven't heard them all. The Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 sounded bright, the original Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC (not to be confused with the MiniMax DAC Plus, nor the MiniMax DAC Supreme) sounded warm. In between bright and warm can be found Sabre DACs that have a very neutral sound. All you have to do is look for them. |
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Post by minthral on Mar 10, 2016 13:18:36 GMT -5
I find that most DACs sound the same...the whole thing is overblown from the days there was a difference and they were more expensive. What is more important is EQ is setup correctly for the room, otherwise you end up with muddy sound due to uncontrolled lower freqs getting amped by the walls...or shrill highs. A minidsp 22d made a huge difference and the result is the same no matter what DAC is used. I wouldn't focus so much on the DAC sound quality but more of features and how it can work in your system based on your source. If you think the DAC is why you don't like your sound, I would look else where...like room correction/EQ, speaker choice and position, content, and so on.
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Post by yves on Mar 10, 2016 14:41:54 GMT -5
I find that most DACs sound the same...the whole thing is overblown from the days there was a difference and they were more expensive. What is more important is EQ is setup correctly for the room, otherwise you end up with muddy sound due to uncontrolled lower freqs getting amped by the walls...or shrill highs. A minidsp 22d made a huge difference and the result is the same no matter what DAC is used. I wouldn't focus so much on the DAC sound quality but more of features and how it can work in your system based on your source. If you think the DAC is why you don't like your sound, I would look else where...like room correction/EQ, speaker choice and position, content, and so on. The first things to look at apart from the recording (garbage in, garbage out...) are the speakers, the speaker placement and the listening position in the room, as well as physical room acoustic treatments. Now, assuming there will be already proper amplification hooked up to the speakers, next on the list of priorities is not EQ, nor Room Correction Systems, but choosing a capable DAC in conjunction with critical listening to everything and having some patience to let your ears adapt themselves to different sound signatures instead of jumping to all the wrong conclusions from the get-go. |
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ilok
Minor Hero
Posts: 64 
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Post by ilok on Mar 10, 2016 20:07:32 GMT -5
The difference between the DC-1 and TASCAM UH-7000 was not subtle  |
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Post by minthral on Mar 10, 2016 23:21:36 GMT -5
I disagree...eq = room correction. It has existed forever. The only different is that today we have automated systems with mics that set correct filters opposed to manually tinkering "low", "mid," "high." The room, listening position, and speaker choice give as much as + or - 20 DB at a certain freq...usually lower/mid freqs resonate and are the problem. End result is regardless of what fancy DAC you use, you get muddy sound. In this situation, you might like "colored" DACs that favor high freqs because this way they naturally compensate the fact you have boomy lower freq and too much miss to create the muddy sound perception.
In summary, invest more in EQ, room correction, and speakers before you look at DACs.
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Post by yves on Mar 11, 2016 4:22:55 GMT -5
I disagree...eq = room correction. It has existed forever. The only different is that today we have automated systems with mics that set correct filters opposed to manually tinkering "low", "mid," "high." The room, listening position, and speaker choice give as much as + or - 20 DB at a certain freq...usually lower/mid freqs resonate and are the problem. End result is regardless of what fancy DAC you use, you get muddy sound. In this situation, you might like "colored" DACs that favor high freqs because this way they naturally compensate the fact you have boomy lower freq and too much miss to create the muddy sound perception. In summary, invest more in EQ, room correction, and speakers before you look at DACs. In summary, you haven't got a clue about room acoustics or about DAC sound. |
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Post by minthral on Mar 11, 2016 13:15:25 GMT -5
I disagree...eq = room correction. It has existed forever. The only different is that today we have automated systems with mics that set correct filters opposed to manually tinkering "low", "mid," "high." The room, listening position, and speaker choice give as much as + or - 20 DB at a certain freq...usually lower/mid freqs resonate and are the problem. End result is regardless of what fancy DAC you use, you get muddy sound. In this situation, you might like "colored" DACs that favor high freqs because this way they naturally compensate the fact you have boomy lower freq and too much miss to create the muddy sound perception. In summary, invest more in EQ, room correction, and speakers before you look at DACs. In summary, you haven't got a clue about room acoustics or about DAC sound. You make no sense. If that's what you got out of my post, words must have a different meaning to you. i have compared many DACs and can very comfortably state they all sound about the same and are mostly indistinguishable. There are really cheap devices out there that have slight distortion and expensive ones that attempt to make the sound more detailed by "coloring" the sound, but end of the day a DAC's job is take a digital signal and covert it to analog...and most will do this accurately. Seeking out "the best" DAC costing thousands is just snake oil and people's "what if" imagination at work. However, people are welcome to spend their monkey as they want to make themselves happy. |
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Post by yves on Mar 11, 2016 13:58:06 GMT -5
In summary, you haven't got a clue about room acoustics or about DAC sound. You make no sense. If that's what you got out of my post, words must have a different meaning to you. i have compared many DACs and can very comfortably state they all sound about the same and are mostly indistinguishable. There are really cheap devices out there that have slight distortion and expensive ones that attempt to make the sound more detailed by "coloring" the sound, but end of the day a DAC's job is take a digital signal and covert it to analog...and most will do this accurately. Seeking out "the best" DAC costing thousands is just snake oil and people's "what if" imagination at work. However, people are welcome to spend their monkey as they want to make themselves happy. Just because YOU can't hear differences that aren't subtle between different DACs, doesn't also mean everybody else can't. Regarding pitiful remarks of "you make no sense", "snake oil", and "imagination at work", you are more than welcome to read this extremely good article: www.audiostream.com/content/blind-testing-golden-ears-and-envy-oh-my |
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Post by rtg97229 on Mar 11, 2016 15:18:11 GMT -5
The DACs we use in the DC-1, and the XDA-2, and the XMC-1, were chosen because they have a very neutral sound (so do the DACs in the Oppo 103). The Oppo 105 uses a Sabre DAC, which is another one of the high-end DAC chips available these days. Sabre DACs have a slight coloration - which some people like and others do not. Sabre DACs tend to emphasize transients slightly, which makes them sound either "more detailed" or "slightly etched" - depending on whether you like that particular sound or not. (Note that this is a SUBTLE difference; and both in general sound very good.) IMO not all Sabre DACs tend to emphasize transients. A better explanation IMO is the ES9018 chip has such high dynamic range that, by comparison, other DAC chips tend to compress transients. If it sounds "etched", it is because the vast majority of Sabre DACs, including well-known Oppo Blu-ray players (BDP-95 and BDP-105), implement the ES9018 chip in a bit of a poor way compared to my Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Supreme, at least to my ears. Generalizations of "Sabre DACs have a slight coloration" are close to meaningless when you haven't heard them all. The Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 sounded bright, the original Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC (not to be confused with the MiniMax DAC Plus, nor the MiniMax DAC Supreme) sounded warm. In between bright and warm can be found Sabre DACs that have a very neutral sound. All you have to do is look for them. I owned an EE Supreme DAC and tried it with Burson and Dexa opamps and various tubes. Under no configuration did I think it was a good DAC and preferred the DC-1 over it. Luckily there are people who like the EE sound and it had decent resell value. |
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Post by yves on Mar 11, 2016 17:01:48 GMT -5
IMO not all Sabre DACs tend to emphasize transients. A better explanation IMO is the ES9018 chip has such high dynamic range that, by comparison, other DAC chips tend to compress transients. If it sounds "etched", it is because the vast majority of Sabre DACs, including well-known Oppo Blu-ray players (BDP-95 and BDP-105), implement the ES9018 chip in a bit of a poor way compared to my Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Supreme, at least to my ears. Generalizations of "Sabre DACs have a slight coloration" are close to meaningless when you haven't heard them all. The Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 sounded bright, the original Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC (not to be confused with the MiniMax DAC Plus, nor the MiniMax DAC Supreme) sounded warm. In between bright and warm can be found Sabre DACs that have a very neutral sound. All you have to do is look for them. I owned an EE Supreme DAC and tried it with Burson and Dexa opamps and various tubes. Under no configuration did I think it was a good DAC and preferred the DC-1 over it. Luckily there are people who like the EE sound and it had decent resell value. Well, had there not been people whole like the sound of it, for sure the brand would no longer have existed today. But you seem to have missed my point entirely about the logical relationship between Sabre DACs and "neutral" vs. "colored" sound, so not exactly sure what you must be getting at here. |
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Post by garbulky on Mar 11, 2016 18:10:23 GMT -5
I'm not sure if it matters but I think he was saying it doesn't matter because it's not very good (in his opinion).
I of course haven't heard it. I did see some pretty good reviews for it.
Either way, this thread is living up to its DAC fight!! title! Hehe.
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 11, 2016 18:25:44 GMT -5
I would also add another reason why I didn't choose a 105. If you buy a 105 then you will need to upgrade the DAC when things other than the DAC need upgrading. For example the DAC in the 105 may still be just fine but what happens for example when you want/need 4K, HDCP2.2, HDMI2.0 etc? That's the advantage of separates, you only upgrade the bit that needs upgrading.
Cheers
Gary
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