DAC VS DAC...FIGHT!!

[bigbucz]

I bought  an OPPO 103D for the Blu ray quality , unfortunately   I wasn't  concerned with DAC''s  Fast forward  6 months. Looking to invest is a good quality DAC,

So my question is how good is  the DAC from the OPPO 105?  Is it worth the upgrade or should I purchase  to the Emotiva's Stealth DC-1

[geebo]

Mar 4, 2016 11:40:23 GMT -5 bigbucz said:

I bought  an OPPO 103D for the Blu ray quality , unfortunately   I wasn't  concerned with DAC''s  Fast forward  6 months. Looking to invest is a good quality DAC,

So my question is how good is  the DAC from the OPPO 105?  Is it worth the upgrade or should I purchase  to the Emotiva's Stealth DC-1

Question: Are you only needing a two channel DAC or do you want multi-channel?

[bigbucz]

both.....2 channel for music via xsp-1 and then 7.1 for movies

[Gary Cook]

Lots of DACs in my house, my sound preference in order;
ERC-3, maybe it's the DAC, its implementation or the fact that it's in the box with transport, I don't know but it sounds the best.
BigEgo, it's definitely a DAC implementation that sounds good , I really like the TI/Burr Brown sound signature.
XDA-2 and Oppo 103, nice inoffensive sound, very neutral, no noticeable colouration.
UMC-200, very close to the XDA-2 sound, but with the advantage of multi channels.
Behringer UCA202, amazing sounding DAC for tiny cost.
Daylight
Oppo 105, I just don't like the Sabre DAC implementation, it has an "unrealistic" sounding high end, to my ears it sounds all sparkly and alive at first listening but it's gets tiring fairly quickly.

I strongly suggest that you listen to a 105 before committing, some people love them, some don't.

Cheers
Gary

[brutiarti]

Emotive used the oppo 105 for CES2016

[geebo]

Mar 4, 2016 12:07:10 GMT -5 bigbucz said:

both.....2 channel for music via xsp-1 and then 7.1 for movies

The DC-1 is strictly two channel if that makes a difference. But it's a great stereo DAC with an excellent headphone amp.

[garbulky]

Well that's a good question. I've heard the Oppo 105. By itself it's ok. But coupled with an XSP-1 it really sounds quite good. Then coupled with dual subs, the sound just got all kinds of ridiculous. In the same environment the DC-1 sounded not good. I would say in that environment, this was right at the top of the best sound I have heard.


Now in my setup, the DC-1 sounds very good. It did reasonably well with a UPA-2 but when paired with an XPA-1 gen 2 ....wow. Things really went up a notch with it. It sounded better direct to the amps rather than with the XSP-1 (in my setup). Things were more transparent and room dimensions of the soundstage were better heard and the bass was clearer. Lots of detail. The DC-1 also gets tone right. The treble and stuff feels very natural. The Oppo 105 (in the other room I heard it in) also sounds quite natural.
I haven't compared the Oppo 105 in my room.
So.... it's a toss up. I think you would be better served getting a dedicated DAC like the SChiit Gungnir Multibit version DAC instead of getting an Oppo 105 if you're looking for that last bit in quality. That's what I would do. The multibit version (which is hte one I would be looking at is $1200).
schiit.com/products/gungnir

But the Oppo 105 does hold its own as far as what I've heard.
Another thing you can do is ditch the UPA-200 and go for a bigger amp. Say the XPA-2. And get the DC-1. You would also realize sound quality improvements that way as well.

[KeithL]

The DACs we use in the DC-1, and the XDA-2, and the XMC-1, were chosen because they have a very neutral sound (so do the DACs in the Oppo 103).
The Oppo 105 uses a Sabre DAC, which is another one of the high-end DAC chips available these days.
Sabre DACs have a slight coloration - which some people like and others do not.
Sabre DACs tend to emphasize transients slightly, which makes them sound either "more detailed" or "slightly etched" - depending on whether you like that particular sound or not.
(Note that this is a SUBTLE difference; and both in general sound very good.)

Mar 4, 2016 11:40:23 GMT -5 bigbucz said:

I bought  an OPPO 103D for the Blu ray quality , unfortunately   I wasn't  concerned with DAC''s  Fast forward  6 months. Looking to invest is a good quality DAC,

So my question is how good is  the DAC from the OPPO 105?  Is it worth the upgrade or should I purchase  to the Emotiva's Stealth DC-1

[stiehl11]

Mar 4, 2016 13:16:57 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Well that's a good question. I've heard the Oppo 105. By itself it's ok. But coupled with an XSP-1 it really sounds quite good.

So, you're saying that the XSP-1 is coloring the sound? I thought the XSP-1 wasn't supposed to do that? Ideally, the best pre-amps should only amplify the sound, not color it. The analog output of the Oppo should not be different whether using it as a pre or using it as a DAC. If the XSP-1 changes the sound quality of that signal then it is coloring it... which is considered bad.

[garbulky]

Mar 4, 2016 14:30:03 GMT -5 stiehl11 said:

Mar 4, 2016 13:16:57 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Well that's a good question. I've heard the Oppo 105. By itself it's ok. But coupled with an XSP-1 it really sounds quite good.

So, you're saying that the XSP-1 is coloring the sound? I thought the XSP-1 wasn't supposed to do that? Ideally, the best pre-amps should only amplify the sound, not color it. The analog output of the Oppo should not be different whether using it as a pre or using it as a DAC. If the XSP-1 changes the sound quality of that signal then it is coloring it... which is considered bad.

Okay well this might make more sense to you. If the premap sounded the same i.e. just as good as with the DAC direct to amps....I am not interested in the preamp. I would run the DAC direct. I have no turn table or multichannel reciever that needs to be integrated in to my two channel. In fact that's what I'm doin right now. I'm runnign the DC-1 direct to the amps. The preamp has to offer an improvement. Otherwise what's the point to me?
Or..in the case of the schiit Ygdrassil..the preamp shouldn't obscure the finer details of the DACs signal. The yggy doesn't have a preamp inbuilt in to it. In this case, I would be looking for a preamp that is more straight wire with gain (or better if possible).

That's where I'm coning from.

Well coloring...it's tricky wording. Let's just say there were some units that simply didn't sound great acting as a preamp. I don't know if you've ever heard some of them. When there is a dynamic, it doesn't come across unrestrained. There's a strain. There's a transient smear. The sound doesn't leap out at you. The instruments aren't "solid". They are thinner in sound. It's held back in some way in a way that doesn't feel natural. That's what the Oppo sounds like. The same goes for the XDA-2. For instance the XDA-2 on my system sounded like things were all the same volume! But I've heard it on better sounding units and I knew that that wasn't the original recording. It wasn't compression. It was a weakness.

When paired with the XSP-1 there was better bass and sound stage and better dynamics. So....it wasn't a straight wire with gain compared with being connected directly to the Oppo 105. But I felt that it was a it better.
If you are looking for more of a straight wire with gain, then the XSP-1 never did it. It sounded better.

However....when used with my XPA-1 gen 2's the XSP-1 appeared to muddy the bass a bit and obscure some finer details....when used with the DC-1 preamp (XLR direct, class A mode). I still haven't heard a preamp that the DC-1 interacts with really well - in my setup. Even the Mcintosh had its own slight coloration to it - with the DC-1.

So I wouldn't say it colors the sound in a negative way. I would say ....the XSP-1 corrects the deficiencies of the Oppo 105 used as a preamp. So it's more that the Oppo 105 was inadequate as a preamp for Emo's bigger amps. Having said that... on the DC-1 at least the XSP-1 did color the sound in my setup. It doesn't diminish what a darn good preamp it is. Hope that helps.

[fbczar]

Mar 4, 2016 14:30:03 GMT -5 stiehl11 said:

Mar 4, 2016 13:16:57 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Well that's a good question. I've heard the Oppo 105. By itself it's ok. But coupled with an XSP-1 it really sounds quite good.

So, you're saying that the XSP-1 is coloring the sound? I thought the XSP-1 wasn't supposed to do that? Ideally, the best pre-amps should only amplify the sound, not color it. The analog output of the Oppo should not be different whether using it as a pre or using it as a DAC. If the XSP-1 changes the sound quality of that signal then it is coloring it... which is considered bad.

Would the factors related to improved performance with the Oppo 105 combined with the XSP-1, as opposed to the Oppo 105 by itself, be less related to coloration than additional gain provided by the XSP-1 and the decidedly superior volume control of the XSP-1?

[garbulky]

Mar 4, 2016 15:34:40 GMT -5 fbczar said:

Mar 4, 2016 14:30:03 GMT -5 stiehl11 said:

So, you're saying that the XSP-1 is coloring the sound? I thought the XSP-1 wasn't supposed to do that? Ideally, the best pre-amps should only amplify the sound, not color it. The analog output of the Oppo should not be different whether using it as a pre or using it as a DAC. If the XSP-1 changes the sound quality of that signal then it is coloring it... which is considered bad.

Would the factors related to improved performance with the Oppo 105 combined with the XSP-1, as opposed to the Oppo 105 by itself, be less related to coloration than additional gain provided by the XSP-1 and the decidedly superior volume control of the XSP-1?

I don't know what makes it sound better. But yes. the Oppo 105 sounds better with the XSP-1. It's a nice sound. But like I said if you already have the XSP-1, look at the Gungnir Multibit from Schiit or its more pricier flagship the Yggdrasil. I ahven't heard it but it is a dedicated 2 channel DAC which is made by the godfather who made the very first dac! I should mention that this is just my opinion related to my subjective observations.

[Loop 7]

I have to disagree with some who think the DACs in the UMC-200 and XDA-2 sound similar.

In the context of two channel, my ears say the UMC-200 is neutral but rather uninteresting; it's just kind of there. The XDA-2 Gen 2 is much more to my liking and seems to offer more detail but in a smoother and richer way. Maybe the XDA-2 just hates jitter more than the UMC-200.

I just think the XDA-2 Gen 2 is one of the most underrated DACs I've heard.

[brutiarti]

IMO the preamp section of the oppo 105 is not that great compared to a standalone preamp like the xsp-1

[wilburthegoose]

I'm really happy with my XMC-1's DAC.

[boomzilla]

Hi garbulky -

One quick question - When you tried the XSP-1, gen. 2, did you absolutely CHECK to make sure that the preamp was in full-range mode (no bass management)? Because if you accidentally left those switches in the bass-management mode, it would make your bass sound not only wimpy, but possibly muddy as well.

If you did check the switches, then just disregard this question.

As to the OP's question - it depends... If you're running your Oppo-105's output directly to your power amps, bigbucz, then you're using the Oppo's remote volume? If so, then you're getting "digital volume control," with some potential loss of audio resolution (particularly if you have to turn the volume down much). In my experience, the Oppo BDP-105 connected directly to the power amplifiers is a decent, but not stellar performer. It sounds better if you leave the Oppo's volume at 100% and then attenuate with an analog preamplifier. My Emotiva XSP-1, Generation 2 sounded better through my amplifiers than did the Oppo connected directly.

garbulky's Stealth DC-1 DAC has its own analog volume knob (but, alas, not a remote controlled volume). So running the analog outs of the Stealth through "another" preamplifier is very likely to reduce the sound quality. The main advantage of a preamp is switching & convenience. But that said, some preamps have more of a "sound" than others.

Ultimately, I'd recommend staying away (far, far away) from digital volume control. Leave the Oppo at 100% and use a preamp. If you want neutrality, the Emotiva XSP-1 is a fine contender. The McIntosh solid-state units also sound great. If you're determined to NOT have a preamp in the system (an option that's both less expensive and far less likely to affect the sound quality), then you'll need to decide whether you want remote control or not. If not, there are are plenty of nice DACs billed as "headphone amplifiers / preamps" that probably equal the Oppo's sound quality for less money. If you want remote control and analog volume, then the Benchmark DAC1-HDR comes to mind.

The higher up the DAC food chain you climb, the less likely you are to find one with a built in remote-controlled analog volume section. The expensive DACs mostly all assume you'll be using a preamp.

Of course, there may be exceptions that I don't know about, and I'm sure that my fellow Loungers will be happy to demonstrate my ignorance (yet again). But my ultimate message is "Don't judge the sound of the Oppo BDP-105 by using it's built in digital volume control." It can sound better (MUCH better) when used as a DAC rather than as a DAC-Preamp combo.

Happy shopping!

Boomzilla

[Loop 7]

Digital volume controls have come a long way. PS Audio has a clever design in their DAC but I'm still not sold and prefer analog gain.

[mountain]

Simply put, I love my oppo 105 going directly to umc-200 via 7.1 analog inputs then out to my outlaw model 7200.  They mate extremely well with my definitives.

[hemster]

Mar 4, 2016 20:01:23 GMT -5 boomzilla said:

...garbulky's Stealth DC-1 DAC has its own analog volume knob (but, alas, not a remote controlled volume)....

Boomzilla

The DC-1 does have a remote which (among other things) controls the volume.

[yves]

An analog preamp usually only is needed for volume control and to be able to switch between multiple source components that have analog outs (standalone CD players, DACs,...). Another potential scenario where an analog preamp can be useful is when there is an impedance mismatch between the analog outs of the source component and the analog ins of the power amp so the addition of an analog preamp can fix that problem, and consequently improve the sound. On top of that, the XSP-1 also includes a phono stage, and analog crossovers with bass management.

As for digital volume control vs. analog volume control, the latter has the advantage of also attenuating the background noise coming out of the analog outs of the DAC, whereas with the former, decreasing the volume the noise remains at a constant level. But if the self noise of the DAC is low enough to be inaudible to you with your ears within only inches distance of your tweeter, what's the whole point of further reducing this noise? An example. The volume slider of foobar2000 is a form of digital volume control. In foobar2000, everything is losslessly upconverted to 32-bit (i.e. padded with zeros). Next, the amplitude of the digital waveform is reduced so that it matches the volume slider's setting. Finally, with a 24-bit DAC, this 32-bit digital waveform is dithered down to 24-bit. As a result, the noise that's caused by this whole process is below -138 dBFS. By contrast, the noise floor of a high end stereo playback system doesn't get much better than -120 dB. So no, provided that your DAC has low enough self noise, you are NOT losing any bits. What's more, digital volume control does not have any channel tracking imbalance, nor causes any distortions. I have been unable to hear differences between my separate DAC hooked up direct to my XPA-2 Gen 1 (using the volume slider of foobar2000) vs. hooked up via the Front Left + Front Right analog Ext. 7.1 ins on my UMC-200 (with the volume slider of foobar2000 set to maximum volume). Analog output on my DAC is at 2.8 Vrms, amp gain of the XPA-2 Gen 1 is 32 dB, and my speakers are 88.5 dB sensitive, yet, despite this, no audible hiss is coming from the tweeters if listening within inches distance from them, regardless of whether the UMC-200 is hooked up between the DAC and power amp. So, to me, the analog preamp section in the UMC-200 is a straight wire with gain. I like that, and I like it A LOT.

That said, I think Schiit DACs are being overrated.