Fubar?

[bluemeanies]

My friend had a Focal surround speaker blow while watching the movie "EVEREST". At least he thought the speaker blew. He has the INTEGRA DTA70.1 amplifier which went into protection mode. He bought the speaker into the store where he made the purchase since he still has a year warranty available. This is the second Integra DTA70.1 
Before bringing the speaker to the store he spoke to a qualified sales person whom he is knew and told him the problem.

His response was that "now a days they do not build speakers with a protection mode to prevent something like this from happening"
When I heard this one word came into mind...B_ _ _ S_ _ _!... FUBAR!
However, I am NOT an expert, but I never heard an explanation like that in the 50+ years of owning 2channel/or HT equipment.

They tested the speaker and it was fine but posited to the amplifier as the possible issue.

I am asking if the reason given by the sales-person is realistic.
I myself have never blown a speaker much less a surround.
My friend did tell me that both of his surrounds are bare-wired connected to his DTA70.1 and I suggested that perhaps he had a short.

Thanks

[vcautokid]

That sounds like a possibility there as all it takes is one strand of wire in the wrong place. A short happens. Amplifier goes into protection. Best bet, use another terminated speaker cable set and see what happens. There really is no reason to use bare wire anymore as most speaker binding posts are very accommodating multi-way types now.

[audiosyndrome]

The last speakers I had with a "protection mode" were my two Polk 12s and my four Polk 10s. They had external fuses in-line with the speaker inputs. I don't think any manufacturers have done that (now) for a very long time.

Russ

[Boomzilla]

"Protection Modes" for speakers are as rare as hen's teeth. Any DC protection is built into the amp, if it exists at all.

[bluemeanies]

Thanks for the replys.
My first set of speakers...good speakers were back in the very early 70's. 1972 to be exact. I think it was a pair of KEF's. Never did any of my speakers have any protection mode. Yes I have heard of amplifiers and still do hear of them having protection mode.
I just think he gave my friend bad information or at the least a lame reason.

Correct on the shorting issue...there is no reason for it.
Amazing...my friend actually paid to have his system put togather by this place and they could have suggested terminating the cables with banana plugs but obviously they did not.

Boom as usually you are right on!

[deltadube]

Mar 17, 2016 15:19:57 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

"Protection Modes" for speakers are as rare as hen's teeth. Any DC protection is built into the amp, if it exists at all.

ive never heard of speakers with protection modes .. just amps... maybe a powered speaker might..

cheers

[ilok]

You only find protection/limiter in active monitors/active subs nowadays.

[AudioHTIT]

Some speakers – like Magnepans – have fuses, but as Boomzilla notes this is very rare and always has been.

[KeithL]

This is another one of those simple seeming questions with a complicated answer.....

In "the old days" many speakers had fuses. A fuse will protect a speaker against most "catastrophic failures". This means that, if your amplifier suddenly starts putting out 52 volts DC, or a wire falls off, and your amp delivers a blast of 2 kW of hum, the fuse will blow and protect the speaker. The flaw in this theory is that music is very dynamic - and speakers are mechanical devices. Your speaker rated at "200 watts RMS" is "intended to be used with a 200 watt amplifier". The actual reality is that it can probably stand peaks of 300 or 400 watts, but, if you were to apply 100 watts of a steady test tone, in five or ten minutes it would overheat and burn out. (Which means that, if you connect it to a typical 200 watt amplifier, and play normal music, and don't turn it up into really awful clipping, you'll be fine.) The problem is that, if we were to pick a fuse that would blow quickly at 100 watts, that fuse would be popping every time you hit a loud spot; and, if we used a fuse big enough to blow at 200 watts, it wouldn't stop you from burning out the speaker with a really loud continuous note. But what about slow-blow fuses you ask? Well, sometimes they work better, but slow blow fuses can actually "hold" for a long time with a significant overage... so they either blow long after the damage is done, or you pick one small enough that it blows too often. They rarely work out very well. The other thing is that each driver has different limits, so you really want a separate fuse for each driver - especially since the amount of power that would be perfectly safe for the whole speaker could fry your tweeter in just a few minutes. But now we've got several fuses, each one different. And, finally, all fuses have significant resistance, which can reduce damping and other bad stuff like that.

Now, back in the old days, there were also many speakers that had "electronic protection" - which could include limiter circuits, automatic cutoffs, slow circuit breakers, and even a light bulb in series with one of the drivers. The problem there was simply that almost all of those sorts of things ended up either introducing significant distortion, or popping at odd times and being more annoying than useful, or not really offering much protection, or some combination of those flaws. Nobody ever seemed to come up with one that actually worked right, actually protected the speaker from being damaged, and didn't mess up the sound. Then we passed through a stage where many amplifiers had some sort of current limiting or "soft clipping" to limit the output audio to a safe level - but they virtually always end up compromising the sound to some degree.

Most current amplifiers (including ours) have protection against actual faults (like DC on the output). which protects you from most things likely to go wrong inside the amplifier.

However, back to our story..... There's not really much you can do about protecting someone from simply turning the amplifier up loud enough to damage the speaker (which I'm sure is what they suspected). If you want that sort of protection, then your best bet is probably what they usually did in the old days - a fast blow fuse of reasonably high power rating. (It may blow from time to time when it doesn't have to, but a fuse costs 50 cents, the fuse holder costs about $3, and, since the fuse is a resistor, it won't have much of a negative effect on the sound quality. Note that slow blow fuses are really too slow to offer much protection, and also have more resistance, and so are more likely to be audible - so should usually be avoided for this application.)
 
The fact is that most current amplifiers (including ours) have built-in protection to protect your system from failures inside the amplifier. Some, like ours, also protect you from certain nasty types of fault signals, and from clipping the amp so badly that the speaker itself mechanically clips, and from things like bad grounds. However, none of them will protect you from simply overdriving everything long enough and badly enough to damage your speaker. (And what the salesman told your friend is true; few modern speakers include fuses, and VERY few include any other sort of protection circuitry.)

It would be possible to design a "little black box" that would literally make it impossible for you to damage your speakers... the proper term for such a device would be "a Safe Operating Area limiter", and a tiny version of it is used in your cell phone - which is why that really tiny speaker can play pretty loudly without burning out. However, in order to work well, such a device has to be programmed specifically for the model of speaker you have, and there simply doesn't seem to be enough market for one for home audio to encourage anybody to sell one. (It's the sort of thing you could build yourself with a Raspberry Pi, about $20 worth of parts, and a lot of time and experimentation.... and a lot of detailed information about your particular model of speaker.)

Mar 17, 2016 6:53:53 GMT -5 bluemeanies said:

My friend had a Focal surround speaker blow while watching the movie "EVEREST". At least he thought the speaker blew. He has the INTEGRA DTA70.1 amplifier which went into protection mode. He bought the speaker into the store where he made the purchase since he still has a year warranty available. This is the second Integra DTA70.1 
Before bringing the speaker to the store he spoke to a qualified sales person whom he is knew and told him the problem.

His response was that "now a days they do not build speakers with a protection mode to prevent something like this from happening"
When I heard this one word came into mind...B_ _ _ S_ _ _!... FUBAR!
However, I am NOT an expert, but I never heard an explanation like that in the 50+ years of owning 2channel/or HT equipment.

They tested the speaker and it was fine but posited to the amplifier as the possible issue.

I am asking if the reason given by the sales-person is realistic.
I myself have never blown a speaker much less a surround.
My friend did tell me that both of his surrounds are bare-wired connected to his DTA70.1 and I suggested that perhaps he had a short.

Thanks

[KeithL]

Mar 23, 2016 10:10:14 GMT -5 KeithL said:

This is another one of those simple seeming questions with a complicated answer.....

In "the old days" many speakers had fuses. A fuse will protect a speaker against most "catastrophic failures". This means that, if your amplifier suddenly starts putting out 52 volts DC, or a wire falls off, and your amp delivers a blast of 2 kW of hum, the fuse will blow and protect the speaker. The flaw in this theory is that music is very dynamic - and speakers are mechanical devices. Your speaker rated at "200 watts RMS" is "intended to be used with a 200 watt amplifier". The actual reality is that it can probably stand peaks of 300 or 400 watts, but, if you were to apply 100 watts of a steady test tone, in five or ten minutes it would overheat and burn out. (Which means that, if you connect it to a typical 200 watt amplifier, and play normal music, and don't turn it up into really awful clipping, you'll be fine.) The problem is that, if we were to pick a fuse that would blow quickly at 100 watts, that fuse would be popping every time you hit a loud spot; and, if we used a fuse big enough to blow at 200 watts, it wouldn't stop you from burning out the speaker with a really loud continuous note. But what about slow-blow fuses you ask? Well, sometimes they work better, but slow blow fuses can actually "hold" for a long time with a significant overage... so they either blow long after the damage is done, or you pick one small enough that it blows too often. They rarely work out very well. The other thing is that each driver has different limits, so you really want a separate fuse for each driver - especially since the amount of power that would be perfectly safe for the whole speaker could fry your tweeter in just a few minutes. But now we've got several fuses, each one different. And, finally, all fuses have significant resistance, which can reduce damping and other bad stuff like that.

Now, back in the old days, there were also many speakers that had "electronic protection" - which could include limiter circuits, automatic cutoffs, slow circuit breakers, and even a light bulb in series with one of the drivers. The problem there was simply that almost all of those sorts of things ended up either introducing significant distortion, or popping at odd times and being more annoying than useful, or not really offering much protection, or some combination of those flaws. Nobody ever seemed to come up with one that actually worked right, actually protected the speaker from being damaged, and didn't mess up the sound. Then we passed through a stage where many amplifiers had some sort of current limiting or "soft clipping" to limit the output audio to a safe level - but they virtually always end up compromising the sound to some degree.

Most current amplifiers (including ours) have protection against actual faults (like DC on the output). which protects you from most things likely to go wrong inside the amplifier.

However, back to our story..... There's not really much you can do about protecting someone from simply turning the amplifier up loud enough to damage the speaker (which I'm sure is what they suspected). If you want that sort of protection, then your best bet is probably what they usually did in the old days - a fast blow fuse of reasonably high power rating. (It may blow from time to time when it doesn't have to, but a fuse costs 50 cents, the fuse holder costs about $3, and, since the fuse is a resistor, it won't have much of a negative effect on the sound quality. Note that slow blow fuses are really too slow to offer much protection, and also have more resistance, and so are more likely to be audible - so should usually be avoided for this application.)
 
The fact is that most current amplifiers (including ours) have built-in protection to protect your system from failures inside the amplifier. Some, like ours, also protect you from certain nasty types of fault signals, and from clipping the amp so badly that the speaker itself mechanically clips, and from things like bad grounds. However, none of them will protect you from simply overdriving everything long enough and badly enough to damage your speaker. (And what the salesman told your friend is true; few modern speakers include fuses, and VERY few include any other sort of protection circuitry. However, if the Integra simply went into protect, then powering it off and on again should have reset it - which makes the idea of a possible short in the speaker wire not unlikely.)

It would be possible to design a "little black box" that would literally make it impossible for you to damage your speakers... the proper term for such a device would be "a Safe Operating Area limiter", and a tiny version of it is used in your cell phone - which is why that really tiny speaker can play pretty loudly without burning out. However, in order to work well, such a device has to be programmed specifically for the model of speaker you have, and there simply doesn't seem to be enough market for one for home audio to encourage anybody to sell one. (It's the sort of thing you could build yourself with a Raspberry Pi, about $20 worth of parts, and a lot of time and experimentation.... and a lot of detailed information about your particular model of speaker.)

Mar 17, 2016 6:53:53 GMT -5 bluemeanies said:

My friend had a Focal surround speaker blow while watching the movie "EVEREST". At least he thought the speaker blew. He has the INTEGRA DTA70.1 amplifier which went into protection mode. He bought the speaker into the store where he made the purchase since he still has a year warranty available. This is the second Integra DTA70.1 
Before bringing the speaker to the store he spoke to a qualified sales person whom he is knew and told him the problem.

His response was that "now a days they do not build speakers with a protection mode to prevent something like this from happening"
When I heard this one word came into mind...B_ _ _ S_ _ _!... FUBAR!
However, I am NOT an expert, but I never heard an explanation like that in the 50+ years of owning 2channel/or HT equipment.

They tested the speaker and it was fine but posited to the amplifier as the possible issue.

I am asking if the reason given by the sales-person is realistic.
I myself have never blown a speaker much less a surround.
My friend did tell me that both of his surrounds are bare-wired connected to his DTA70.1 and I suggested that perhaps he had a short.

Thanks

[bluemeanies]

Mar 23, 2016 10:14:34 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Mar 23, 2016 10:10:14 GMT -5 KeithL said:

This is another one of those simple seeming questions with a complicated answer.....

In "the old days" many speakers had fuses. A fuse will protect a speaker against most "catastrophic failures". This means that, if your amplifier suddenly starts putting out 52 volts DC, or a wire falls off, and your amp delivers a blast of 2 kW of hum, the fuse will blow and protect the speaker. The flaw in this theory is that music is very dynamic - and speakers are mechanical devices. Your speaker rated at "200 watts RMS" is "intended to be used with a 200 watt amplifier". The actual reality is that it can probably stand peaks of 300 or 400 watts, but, if you were to apply 100 watts of a steady test tone, in five or ten minutes it would overheat and burn out. (Which means that, if you connect it to a typical 200 watt amplifier, and play normal music, and don't turn it up into really awful clipping, you'll be fine.) The problem is that, if we were to pick a fuse that would blow quickly at 100 watts, that fuse would be popping every time you hit a loud spot; and, if we used a fuse big enough to blow at 200 watts, it wouldn't stop you from burning out the speaker with a really loud continuous note. But what about slow-blow fuses you ask? Well, sometimes they work better, but slow blow fuses can actually "hold" for a long time with a significant overage... so they either blow long after the damage is done, or you pick one small enough that it blows too often. They rarely work out very well. The other thing is that each driver has different limits, so you really want a separate fuse for each driver - especially since the amount of power that would be perfectly safe for the whole speaker could fry your tweeter in just a few minutes. But now we've got several fuses, each one different. And, finally, all fuses have significant resistance, which can reduce damping and other bad stuff like that.

Now, back in the old days, there were also many speakers that had "electronic protection" - which could include limiter circuits, automatic cutoffs, slow circuit breakers, and even a light bulb in series with one of the drivers. The problem there was simply that almost all of those sorts of things ended up either introducing significant distortion, or popping at odd times and being more annoying than useful, or not really offering much protection, or some combination of those flaws. Nobody ever seemed to come up with one that actually worked right, actually protected the speaker from being damaged, and didn't mess up the sound. Then we passed through a stage where many amplifiers had some sort of current limiting or "soft clipping" to limit the output audio to a safe level - but they virtually always end up compromising the sound to some degree.

Most current amplifiers (including ours) have protection against actual faults (like DC on the output). which protects you from most things likely to go wrong inside the amplifier.

However, back to our story..... There's not really much you can do about protecting someone from simply turning the amplifier up loud enough to damage the speaker (which I'm sure is what they suspected). If you want that sort of protection, then your best bet is probably what they usually did in the old days - a fast blow fuse of reasonably high power rating. (It may blow from time to time when it doesn't have to, but a fuse costs 50 cents, the fuse holder costs about $3, and, since the fuse is a resistor, it won't have much of a negative effect on the sound quality. Note that slow blow fuses are really too slow to offer much protection, and also have more resistance, and so are more likely to be audible - so should usually be avoided for this application.)
 
The fact is that most current amplifiers (including ours) have built-in protection to protect your system from failures inside the amplifier. Some, like ours, also protect you from certain nasty types of fault signals, and from clipping the amp so badly that the speaker itself mechanically clips, and from things like bad grounds. However, none of them will protect you from simply overdriving everything long enough and badly enough to damage your speaker. (And what the salesman told your friend is true; few modern speakers include fuses, and VERY few include any other sort of protection circuitry. However, if the Integra simply went into protect, then powering it off and on again should have reset it - which makes the idea of a possible short in the speaker wire not unlikely.)

It would be possible to design a "little black box" that would literally make it impossible for you to damage your speakers... the proper term for such a device would be "a Safe Operating Area limiter", and a tiny version of it is used in your cell phone - which is why that really tiny speaker can play pretty loudly without burning out. However, in order to work well, such a device has to be programmed specifically for the model of speaker you have, and there simply doesn't seem to be enough market for one for home audio to encourage anybody to sell one. (It's the sort of thing you could build yourself with a Raspberry Pi, about $20 worth of parts, and a lot of time and experimentation.... and a lot of detailed information about your particular model of speaker.)

Thanks K,
What you stated is all true and I do remember back in the day when speakers had fuses. I guess my point is why even mention that prehistoric technology especially when we are talking about a surround speaker which back in the day that terminology did not exist.
How loud was that surround?
Answer/Not loud enough to cause it to blow.
I very well could have accepted his answer if it were the main left or right speaker.
I thought that it would be the bare wire causing the problem but I found out the Integra amplifier was sent back for a repair and my friend will be issued a second re-furnished unit. I myself never liked Integra but it was purely from a personnel choice.
Hopefully the issue gets resolved and the new (refurnished or repaired unit last more than the two years the current unit lasted.

[leonski]

Magnepan continues to include fuse protection. Many users simply bridge the fuse out of the circuit since it is of little or no benefit.
On Maggies with the immaculate Ribon Tweeter, it is referred to as the 'Fuse Protector'.

I'm not very optimistic about HT receivers 'lasting'. They TEND to run hot and if not in a well-ventilated space, can simply cook. It is also possible to clip one of the
surround channels on the basis of only So-Much power supply to go around. You may have it turned up pretty good. Front 3 channels (L / R/ C) are maybe using 60% of non-clip power.
Add is some cool 'effects' from the rears? You can clip 'em without necessarily even hearing it over the mains.

I just rented EVEREST, and I'll bet the surround speaker didn't at all like the AVALANCHE.

[bluemeanies]

Update...its been a few weeks that I posted this thread but here is an update.
I just found out that it was NOT the surround speaker that blew. As a matter of fact no speaker bit the dust.
It was the Integra amplifier.
The Integra 70.1 amplifier.
I do feel bad about this for my friend. The audio store sent it to NJ to be refurbished. They did attempt to fix it on site. They will be sending him a new Integra or a refurbished unit. I seem to think they will he will get another refurbished unit. Yes another, since the original NEW Integra had a similar issue. So new or refurbished this will be the 3rd Integra 70.1 he will be putting into his system that was set-up by the audio store where he purchased the original 70.1.

I have to ask if anyone who has this unit experienced any issues similar.
Also, the store connected both surrounds with bare wire. Myself I am not a fan of bare wire but I know people do it and to each his own, but I have to ask if something like bare wire could cause a serious problem. I know it is possible that a short in the system could arise but that can easily be resolved but to have 2amplifiers in the shop within a year?....

Thanks.

[rbk123]

I have used, and am currently using, bare wire. Have done so for 20 or so years now on 20+ different speakers with numerous amps and receivers. Never had an issue.

[bluemeanies]

Apr 9, 2016 8:12:58 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

I have used, and am currently using, bare wire. Have done so for 20 or so years now on 20+ different speakers with numerous amps and receivers. Never had an issue.

Thanks I appreciate your input but what I wanted to know is if anyone with the Integra 70.1 amplifier ever had any problems.
I USE to bare wire myself and never had any issues but as time went on the ease of home made connectors made me change to safeguard against a short.

[MusicHead]

My first pair of speakers, purchased off my summer job money when I was in high school, had a fuse on the tweeter.

They were a 3-way design, CS-52 from ESB, an Italian company now focusing only on car speakers.

I ended up upping the fuse current rating because they were blowing too often even with my modest but capable Technics 2x65W amp :-)

[rbk123]

Apr 9, 2016 9:18:09 GMT -5 bluemeanies said:

Thanks I appreciate your input but what I wanted to know is if anyone with the Integra 70.1 amplifier ever had any problems.

My bad, I have zero experience with the Integra.

[leonski]

BARE WIRE?

Do you mean Magnet Wire? This is typically copper solid wire with a clear coating, like a varnish or enamel. These days some kind of plastic, but CLEAR or sometimes a slight tint.

Bare Wire is not a good idea, unless you can keep them apart GUARANTEED. The slightest touch will be a short. Even the enameled 'magnet wire' can easily be scratched. When soldering, I always use
a bit of sandpaper where I want it to 'stick'. High gauge (like #20 or greater) will also introduce resistance to the circuit which will DESTROY any chance at a higher damping factor.

The Integra? IGNORE all power ratings. They list a 'dynamic' power @ 4ohms, but why? The RMS per channel @8ohms is probably for a SINGLE CHANNEL. That's gonna drop by at least 1/3 when you get all channels involved. At that point? 4ohm ratings are a bad Joke. If the speaker CAN be BiAmpled, I'd give that a try.

BTW, exactly WHAT Focal speaker model? 4ohm? 8ohm?

[bluemeanies]

Apr 9, 2016 13:01:18 GMT -5 leonski said:

BARE WIRE?

Do you mean Magnet Wire? This is typically copper solid wire with a clear coating, like a varnish or enamel. These days some kind of plastic, but CLEAR or sometimes a slight tint.

Bare Wire is not a good idea, unless you can keep them apart GUARANTEED. The slightest touch will be a short. Even the enameled 'magnet wire' can easily be scratched. When soldering, I always use
a bit of sandpaper where I want it to 'stick'. High gauge (like #20 or greater) will also introduce resistance to the circuit which will DESTROY any chance at a higher damping factor.

The Integra? IGNORE all power ratings. They list a 'dynamic' power @ 4ohms, but why? The RMS per channel @8ohms is probably for a SINGLE CHANNEL. That's gonna drop by at least 1/3 when you get all channels involved. At that point? 4ohm ratings are a bad Joke. If the speaker CAN be BiAmpled, I'd give that a try.

BTW, exactly WHAT Focal speaker model? 4ohm? 8ohm?

I am pretty sure it's the Focal Chorus 826 V which is 8ohms.
BARE WIRE as in NOT having terminators.
It's not my bag!

[leonski]

Focal 826 as tested by Stereophile.
NOTE: the phase / impedance data especially the low impedance AND high phase angle occurring together. Need a very capable amp.


www.stereophile.com/content/focal-chorus-826w-30th-anniversary-edition-loudspeaker-measurements#wVcSJ0rewHpQriMk.97

It is very good sensitivity @90db / 1watt /1meter. 200 GOOD 8ohm watts will be MORE than enough for all but the nose-bleed types.

I rather DOUBT the Integra 70.1 is enough power ro good enough quality for these speakers.


No problem with Un-Terminated speaker cable.