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Post by smarties on Mar 22, 2016 14:43:48 GMT -5
I think Emotiva should have a promise, that modules will be available upto a certain year, after that production will end and only those left in stock will be available.
Say they promise until 2019, then people should really get them upgraded in 2018.
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Post by gzubeck on Mar 23, 2016 0:58:25 GMT -5
I wonder how the longevity of the power switching supply will last compared to a quality linear power supply. Im guessing its half! Comments welcome. And your guess is based on??? Russ Not sure how durable switching power supplies are. Alot of pc's use switching power supplies and most dont last over 4-5 years. Even with a better design i give it 10 years at best. Linear supplies use transformers, rectifiers etc and usually have less stress on their designs if theyre over built and will last a couple decades. Switching power supplies have to work harder. Im not an electrical engineer and i would want answers before investing in a switching power supply for a high end amplifier. |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Mar 23, 2016 6:18:12 GMT -5
I think Emotiva should have a promise, that modules will be available upto a certain year, after that production will end and only those left in stock will be available. Say they promise until 2019, then people should really get them upgraded in 2018. Tell that to a car company. I bought a '14 Honda Civic coupe only to find it completely redesigned and upgraded in '16. Think Honda will let me "upgrade"? |
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Post by Cogito on Mar 23, 2016 6:31:21 GMT -5
I think Emotiva should have a promise, that modules will be available upto a certain year, after that production will end and only those left in stock will be available. Say they promise until 2019, then people should really get them upgraded in 2018. Tell that to a car company. I bought a '14 Honda Civic coupe only to find it completely redesigned and upgraded in '16. Think Honda will let me "upgrade"? Yeah, for another $18,000. D'uh.  |
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Post by Cogito on Mar 23, 2016 7:37:08 GMT -5
And your guess is based on??? Russ Not sure how durable switching power supplies are. Alot of pc's use switching power supplies and most dont last over 4-5 years. Even with a better design i give it 10 years at best. Linear supplies use transformers, rectifiers etc and usually have less stress on their designs if theyre over built and will last a couple decades. Switching power supplies have to work harder. Im not an electrical engineer and i would want answers before investing in a switching power supply for a high end amplifier. High power switching power supplies are notoriously fragile (From experience). If anything, it's because of their relative circuit complexity compared to linear types. While I think it's unlikely that it will be an issue for those who upgrade every handful of years, for those people like me who hold on to gear for decades, it could be concerning. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Mar 23, 2016 9:25:22 GMT -5
Without starting an argument, I'd like to point out a few things. 1) Any technology tends to be very expensive, and somewhat fragile, when it's new. Therefore, it's no surprise that Switch Mode Power Supplies from fifteen or twenty years ago weren't as reliable as the fifty year old technology used in linear supplies. As SMPS have become widely used, and the technology has evolved, it is much better understood - and has become much more reliable - because now we understand the weaknesses that caused early models to fail. Our new SMPS isn't exactly cutting edge in that respect; it uses control circuitry and circuit topology that's been used for several years - and proven to be reliable. 2) You also need to maintain a perspective on failure, reliability, and replacement cost - all taken together. In a linear power supply, the only part that even has a "service life" is usually the filter capacitors. However, have you actually priced the cost to have a vintage amplifier "re-capped" lately? It isn't cheap. In contrast, computers use switching supplies that are small, cheap, and easily replaced. If I wanted to replace the 750 watt power supply in my computer with a linear equivalent, it would be much bigger, much heavier, and would cost more than the entire computer (and it still probably only comes with a 90 day warranty). But, if the SMPS in my computer fails, I can replace it in ten minutes - for about $40. Which is a lot less money and labor that it would take to re-cap a linear power supply. This is one of the virtues of modular construction - even the power supply can be replaced or upgraded if it needs to be. (I don't know about you, but I don't recall ever throwing away a computer because the power supply failed.) (Of course, especially with computers, both size and low cost are a major priority, so they do tend towards power supplies that are very compact, very cheap, and very easily replaced. Most computer manufacturers figure that you'd actually rather replace a $25 power supply than pay $100 for one that will last a while.  Our priorities with audio equipment are a bit different, so we actually make sure our power supplies are designed to last. We DON'T expect our SMPS to fail any time soon; it's just nice to know that, if and when one of them does, replacement is relatively simple.) 3) There is a common misconception that switching power supplies are always noisy (well, to be fair, it's a complex subject). However, the reality is that, in AUDIO applications, and with proper design, switching power supplies can be significantly quieter than linear supplies. That big iron transformer in a linear supply radiates a lot of magnetic field. Even worse, it's at 60 Hz, which is relatively difficult to shield against, and very easy to hear. And, no matter how much filtering you use, because it's such a low frequency, it's really difficult to remove the last tiny bit of that 60 Hz and its 120 Hz second harmonic from the power rails themselves. In contrast, because modern switching supplies operate at VERY high frequencies, well above the audible spectrum, any noise leakage they produce is likely to be at frequencies that aren't even remotely audible. In practical terms, this means that well designed devices that use switchers are much less likely to have that tiny bit of hum that you just can't get rid of mixed in with their noise floor. (And, before anybody chimes in about how that tiny bit of high frequency noise can get into the circuitry and cause interference - that's what we mean about well designed. Many early switchers were not well designed... and had just that problem... but we know better now.) 4) The alternatives are still there - if you want to pay the price. If you really want "heavy iron", we plan to keep producing the XPA-1 for the foreseeable future..... it has a linear supply that is capable of delivering a bit less than half the power of the one in the XPA Gen3 - and it weighs a lot more. Not sure how durable switching power supplies are. Alot of pc's use switching power supplies and most dont last over 4-5 years. Even with a better design i give it 10 years at best. Linear supplies use transformers, rectifiers etc and usually have less stress on their designs if theyre over built and will last a couple decades. Switching power supplies have to work harder. Im not an electrical engineer and i would want answers before investing in a switching power supply for a high end amplifier. High power switching power supplies are notoriously fragile (From experience). If anything, it's because of their relative circuit complexity compared to linear types. While I think it's unlikely that it will be an issue for those who upgrade every handful of years, for those people like me who hold on to gear for decades, it could be concerning. |
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Post by Jim on Mar 23, 2016 9:42:30 GMT -5
Not sure how durable switching power supplies are. Alot of pc's use switching power supplies and most dont last over 4-5 years. Even with a better design i give it 10 years at best. Linear supplies use transformers, rectifiers etc and usually have less stress on their designs if they're over built and will last a couple decades. Switching power supplies have to work harder. Im not an electrical engineer and i would want answers before investing in a switching power supply for a high end amplifier. High power switching power supplies are notoriously fragile (From experience). If anything, it's because of their relative circuit complexity compared to linear types. While I think it's unlikely that it will be an issue for those who upgrade every handful of years, for those people like me who hold on to gear for decades, it could be concerning. Granted that PC power supplies are not high power - they are all SMPS. I can't think of the last time I've seen one fail, it's become very very infrequent. They absolutely have a higher component count, but I think that component selection (both in brand and voltage/current handling) is important. A cheap uses generic caps with voltages that barely suffice. Either the Emotiva power supplies will be pretty durable or they won't. I suspect that in the interest of warranty claims and reliability, they've probably done their research. I don't think that a high component count/circuit complexity always means fragility. The Chinese have shown that they can make pretty reliable commodity grade SMPS supplies with dirt cheap components. If they can do that (even with cheap components), I believe that Emotiva can build a reliable high power SMPS. Can you shed some light on your feelings regarding "notoriously fragile"? Just curious about what failure modes you've experienced. |
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Post by Jim on Mar 23, 2016 9:44:05 GMT -5
4) The alternatives are still there - if you want to pay the price. If you really want "heavy iron", we plan to keep producing the XPA-1 for the foreseeable future..... it has a linear supply that is capable of delivering a bit less than half the power of the one in the XPA Gen3 - and it weighs a lot more. That's interesting, I thought the XPA-# line was going away entirely. |
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Post by DavidR on Mar 23, 2016 10:07:02 GMT -5
I'm guessing that when people here read/see the word 'SWITCH' they are thinking of a device that is moving back and forth thus it should wear out. It is probably an 'electronic switch' such as a bias voltage.
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Post by mack71 on Mar 23, 2016 11:35:56 GMT -5
I have a question If I want to buy XPA -g3 I need to plan the number of channels (shipping costs return to Europe are large) .But I wonder what will be the failure of one channel(one module), you also need to send amplifier (such as the update of the additional channel ) ? For international shipping repair by replacement module ($ 200) had to make sense. In the case of returning the entire amplifier ($ 500) a new concept Xpa- G3 is worthless. I have lot of toys from Emo and have never had problems with them, but I ask that in the future |
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Post by DavidR on Mar 23, 2016 11:56:16 GMT -5
I have a question If I want to buy XPA -g3 I need to plan the number of channels (shipping costs return to Europe are large) .But I wonder what will be the failure of one channel(one module), you also need to send amplifier (such as the update of the additional channel ) ? For international shipping repair by replacement module ($ 200) had to make sense. In the case of returning the entire amplifier ($ 500) a new concept Xpa- G3 is worthless. I have lot of toys from Emo and have never had problems with them, but I ask that in the future If you have an XPA-3 G2 or XPA-5 G2 and something goes wrong you would need to ship it back and it weighs quite a bit more. I don't see a difference except the G3 amp will be less money to ship back. |
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Post by mack71 on Mar 23, 2016 12:23:59 GMT -5
I have a question If I want to buy XPA -g3 I need to plan the number of channels (shipping costs return to Europe are large) .But I wonder what will be the failure of one channel(one module), you also need to send amplifier (such as the update of the additional channel ) ? For international shipping repair by replacement module ($ 200) had to make sense. In the case of returning the entire amplifier ($ 500) a new concept Xpa- G3 is worthless. I have lot of toys from Emo and have never had problems with them, but I ask that in the future If you have an XPA-3 G2 or XPA-5 G2 and something goes wrong you would need to ship it back and it weighs quite a bit more. I don't see a difference except the G3 amp will be less money to ship back. I understand. It is a pity that the concept of modular construction is useless for the customer. Amplifiers are lighter (cheaper shipping), but more expensive. |
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Post by Cogito on Mar 23, 2016 12:39:38 GMT -5
High power switching power supplies are notoriously fragile (From experience). If anything, it's because of their relative circuit complexity compared to linear types. While I think it's unlikely that it will be an issue for those who upgrade every handful of years, for those people like me who hold on to gear for decades, it could be concerning. Granted that PC power supplies are not high power - they are all SMPS. I can't think of the last time I've seen one fail, it's become very very infrequent. They absolutely have a higher component count, but I think that component selection (both in brand and voltage/current handling) is important. A cheap uses generic caps with voltages that barely suffice. Either the Emotiva power supplies will be pretty durable or they won't. I suspect that in the interest of warranty claims and reliability, they've probably done their research. I don't think that a high component count/circuit complexity always means fragility. The Chinese have shown that they can make pretty reliable commodity grade SMPS supplies with dirt cheap components. If they can do that (even with cheap components), I believe that Emotiva can build a reliable high power SMPS. Can you shed some light on your feelings regarding "notoriously fragile"? Just curious about what failure modes you've experienced. My comments are based solely on my experience with computer power supplies. Since 1994, I have built (or replaced power supplies) no less than 60 systems for friends, work and myself. Everything from simple streaming boxes, high-end gaming systems and full blown servers with redundant power supplies. My best "guess" is that the failure rate of "economy" power supplies in the first 5 years is about 10%. With premium supplies (Thermaltake, PC P&C, Corsair, etc), around 5% (And no, I don't under power the systems). Doesn't seem like much, but a 1 in 20 chance that my system may suffer failure in the first 5 years is a cause for concern. Add another 10, 20 years of usage, I'm sure the failure rate would be dismal. Keep in mind, swapping out power supplies in computers can be done by just about anyone with a basic knowledge of computer hardware. Swapping out a power supply on a piece of audio equipment is considerably more challenging for most people. To this day, I have never had a piece of equipment fail because of a failing linear power supply. Again, I'm not saying the the Emotiva will be more prone to failure than their linear gear, I'm just going to wait n see for a while before I decide if I would add Gen.3 stuff to my system. |
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Post by Jim on Mar 23, 2016 12:47:02 GMT -5
]My comments are based solely on my experience with computer power supplies. Since 1994, I have built (or replaced power supplies) no less than 60 systems for friends, work and myself. Everything from simple streaming boxes, high-end gaming systems and full blown servers with redundant power supplies. My best "guess" is that the failure rate of "economy" power supplies in the first 5 years is about 10%. With premium supplies (Thermaltake, PC P&C, Corsair, etc), around 5% (And no, I don't under power the systems). Doesn't seem like much, but a 1 in 20 chance that my system may suffer failure in the first 5 years is a cause for concern. Add another 10, 20 years of usage, I'm sure the failure rate would be dismal. Keep in mind, swapping out power supplies in computers can be done by just about anyone with a basic knowledge of computer hardware. Swapping out a power supply on a piece of audio equipment is considerably more challenging for most people. To this day, I have never had a piece of equipment fail because of a failing linear power supply. Again, I'm not saying the the Emotiva will be more prone to failure than their linear gear, I'm just going to wait n see for a while before I decide if I would add Gen.3 stuff to my system. 5% failure rate is HUGE. I'm surprised by that, I can't name any friends/coworkers (and most are IT people) that have had a recent PC power supply failure. I know that Antec had a specific model that had a horrible issue with caps (And somehow I ended up with that model too). The environment where I work is almost entirely Dell systems (thousands), and we just don't see failures. The 90s were the era of bad supplies, and I think the early 2000s were just as bad. I think the last 10 years though have been pretty reliable. I understand the apprehension of SMPS, but some of them are very well engineered. Many lab instruments/equipment, communications equipment, some really expensive stuff -- it's all SMPS. Linear is just too heavy and bulky (not to mention inefficient sometimes). That being said....... I do appreciate the simplicity of old school gear. Wow, I can't believe that I just defended SMPS...... I like the big heavy torroids!  Ah, OK, I feel better now. |
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Post by Cogito on Mar 23, 2016 13:04:11 GMT -5
]My comments are based solely on my experience with computer power supplies. Since 1994, I have built (or replaced power supplies) no less than 60 systems for friends, work and myself. Everything from simple streaming boxes, high-end gaming systems and full blown servers with redundant power supplies. My best "guess" is that the failure rate of "economy" power supplies in the first 5 years is about 10%. With premium supplies (Thermaltake, PC P&C, Corsair, etc), around 5% (And no, I don't under power the systems). Doesn't seem like much, but a 1 in 20 chance that my system may suffer failure in the first 5 years is a cause for concern. Add another 10, 20 years of usage, I'm sure the failure rate would be dismal. Keep in mind, swapping out power supplies in computers can be done by just about anyone with a basic knowledge of computer hardware. Swapping out a power supply on a piece of audio equipment is considerably more challenging for most people. To this day, I have never had a piece of equipment fail because of a failing linear power supply. Again, I'm not saying the the Emotiva will be more prone to failure than their linear gear, I'm just going to wait n see for a while before I decide if I would add Gen.3 stuff to my system. 5% failure rate is HUGE. I'm surprised by that, I can't name any friends/coworkers (and most are IT people) that have had a recent PC power supply failure. I know that Antec had a specific model that had a horrible issue with caps (And somehow I ended up with that model too). The environment where I work is almost entirely Dell systems (thousands), and we just don't see failures. The 90s were the era of bad supplies, and I think the early 2000s were just as bad. I think the last 10 years though have been pretty reliable. I understand the apprehension of SMPS, but some of them are very well engineered. Many lab instruments/equipment, communications equipment, some really expensive stuff -- it's all SMPS. Linear is just too heavy and bulky (not to mention inefficient sometimes). That being said....... I do appreciate the simplicity of old school gear. Wow, I can't believe that I just defended SMPS...... I like the big heavy torroids! Ah, OK, I feel better now. To be fair, quite a few of these failures were due to user negligence. I've replaced power supplies that were so packed with dust/grime, that there was little, if any, air circulation. Surprisingly, none caught on fire! None of it really matters though... One look at a massive toroidal transformer warms the heart like nothing else can. Also, it's more difficult to steal a 75 lb. amp than it is a 35 lb. amp! HA HA |
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Post by garbulky on Mar 23, 2016 13:12:50 GMT -5
]My comments are based solely on my experience with computer power supplies. Since 1994, I have built (or replaced power supplies) no less than 60 systems for friends, work and myself. Everything from simple streaming boxes, high-end gaming systems and full blown servers with redundant power supplies. My best "guess" is that the failure rate of "economy" power supplies in the first 5 years is about 10%. With premium supplies (Thermaltake, PC P&C, Corsair, etc), around 5% (And no, I don't under power the systems). Doesn't seem like much, but a 1 in 20 chance that my system may suffer failure in the first 5 years is a cause for concern. Add another 10, 20 years of usage, I'm sure the failure rate would be dismal. Keep in mind, swapping out power supplies in computers can be done by just about anyone with a basic knowledge of computer hardware. Swapping out a power supply on a piece of audio equipment is considerably more challenging for most people. To this day, I have never had a piece of equipment fail because of a failing linear power supply. Again, I'm not saying the the Emotiva will be more prone to failure than their linear gear, I'm just going to wait n see for a while before I decide if I would add Gen.3 stuff to my system. 5% failure rate is HUGE. I'm surprised by that, I can't name any friends/coworkers (and most are IT people) that have had a recent PC power supply failure. I know that Antec had a specific model that had a horrible issue with caps (And somehow I ended up with that model too). The environment where I work is almost entirely Dell systems (thousands), and we just don't see failures. The 90s were the era of bad supplies, and I think the early 2000s were just as bad. I think the last 10 years though have been pretty reliable. I understand the apprehension of SMPS, but some of them are very well engineered. Many lab instruments/equipment, communications equipment, some really expensive stuff -- it's all SMPS. Linear is just too heavy and bulky (not to mention inefficient sometimes). That being said....... I do appreciate the simplicity of old school gear. Wow, I can't believe that I just defended SMPS...... I like the big heavy torroids! Ah, OK, I feel better now. I've had multiple good switching power supplies fail on my comps. Actually it would have been all of them. They lasted about 3 to six years on average. The only one that has lasted has been my Corsaire 750 TX power supply. I believe it was a replacement unit for one that failed. |
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Post by Jim on Mar 23, 2016 13:31:34 GMT -5
]I've had multiple good switching power supplies fail on my comps. Actually it would have been all of them. They lasted about 3 to six years on average. The only one that has lasted has been my Corsaire 750 TX power supply. I believe it was a replacement unit for one that lasted. Hmmmm...... What are you guys doing to your power supplies? (Just kidding!) |
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Post by bolle on Mar 23, 2016 13:44:37 GMT -5
A PC power supply with 750W for $40 is crap... I had far too many cheap PSUs go "bang" in PCs. So I now invest about 100-150 Euro for a 650 to 750W PSU and haven´t had a single failure since then.
I don´t think the failure rate of Quality PC PSUs is 5% but lower, read some statistics regarding this but forgot where.
Well, the SMPS in my Yamaha P7000S has been fine for a few years now. I am still looking Forward how the one from Emotiva will perform in the new G3.
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Post by garbulky on Mar 23, 2016 14:17:03 GMT -5
A PC power supply with 750W for $40 is crap... I had far too many cheap PSUs go "bang" in PCs. So I now invest about 100-150 Euro for a 650 to 750W PSU and haven´t had a single failure since then. I don´t think the failure rate of Quality PC PSUs is 5% but lower, read some statistics regarding this but forgot where. Well, the SMPS in my Yamaha P7000S has been fine for a few years now. I am still looking Forward how the one from Emotiva will perform in the new G3. Agreed. I think spending that little on PS is a bad idea. I try to spend between $80 to $130. But I don't go much higher because at some point you've got to say enough |
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Post by smarties on Mar 23, 2016 14:47:02 GMT -5
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Our priorities with audio equipment are a bit different, so we actually make sure our power supplies are designed to last. We DON'T expect our SMPS to fail any time soon; it's just nice to know that, if and when one of them does, replacement is relatively simple.)
