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Post by bluemeanies on Apr 28, 2016 16:00:31 GMT -5
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Post by Priapulus on Apr 28, 2016 18:51:30 GMT -5
To get the best sound from Vinyl you need to take a green magic marker and colour the edge of the record...
/b
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Post by yves on Apr 28, 2016 19:24:49 GMT -5
I like turntables because they can be used to play CDs.
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Post by garbulky on Apr 28, 2016 19:58:54 GMT -5
I like turntables because they can be used to play CDs. And yet a cd can't be used to play a vinyl. I think you have solved the debate!  |
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Post by mshump on Apr 28, 2016 20:10:36 GMT -5
Very good and interesting read. Thanks for the post.
Mark
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Post by novisnick on Apr 28, 2016 20:42:01 GMT -5
"Or, as Kees Immink says: "Some people like marmalade and some people like mustard. If people like to listen to vinyl, do so, enjoy life. But don't say that the sound is better.""
Its a shame he ends the article with a BS line!
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Post by Loop 7 on Apr 28, 2016 21:41:40 GMT -5
I receive a lot of friendly pressure from vinyl fanatic pals to get a turntable and start collecting vinyl; they listen to classic rock and hard bop jazz from the 1960's. Their vinyl optimized systems sound incredible but 70% of my listening is to classical where ultra quiet passages can be ruined by pops. Yes, when I attend symphony concerts, people coughing can impact a performance for me as well. I'm rather high strung.
So, I decided digital is for me. Through the use of Amarra, warm-ish amplification and a nice DAC, I'm getting the sound I love.
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Post by yves on Apr 29, 2016 5:30:29 GMT -5
I receive a lot of friendly pressure from vinyl fanatic pals to get a turntable and start collecting vinyl; they listen to classic rock and hard bop jazz from the 1960's. Their vinyl optimized systems sound incredible but 70% of my listening is to classical where ultra quiet passages can be ruined by pops. Yes, when I attend symphony concerts, people coughing can impact a performance for me as well. I'm rather high strung. So, I decided digital is for me. Through the use of Amarra, warm-ish amplification and a nice DAC, I'm getting the sound I love. Manual mode declick in iZotope RX 5 Audio Editor is your best friend. |
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Post by vcautokid on Apr 29, 2016 5:48:58 GMT -5
Hmmm, interesting the part when the bass was not there. RIAA curve usually rolls steeply causing bass loss. Digital does not follow that curve. There is no science there in the article worth fighting over what is better, but ultimately what you may like "better". No right, no wrong, just what you like. I like vinyl but the care, and the fact the music stops too soon before you have go up and flip the record, or put on another is a detractor for me. Digital music Playlists can be many before the music stops. To me that is much better, and keeps it simple, and portable. You cannot make Vinyl portable.
Music at home or on the go makes digital better for me.
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Post by bluemeanies on Apr 29, 2016 5:49:19 GMT -5
"Or, as Kees Immink says: "Some people like marmalade and some people like mustard. If people like to listen to vinyl, do so, enjoy life. But don't say that the sound is better."" Its a shame he ends the article with a BS line! You did not surprise me nick..haha..I know you love your REGA! |
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Post by bluemeanies on Apr 29, 2016 6:04:48 GMT -5
I receive a lot of friendly pressure from vinyl fanatic pals to get a turntable and start collecting vinyl; they listen to classic rock and hard bop jazz from the 1960's. Their vinyl optimized systems sound incredible but 70% of my listening is to classical where ultra quiet passages can be ruined by pops. Yes, when I attend symphony concerts, people coughing can impact a performance for me as well. I'm rather high strung. So, I decided digital is for me. Through the use of Amarra, warm-ish amplification and a nice DAC, I'm getting the sound I love. Very nice loop! Reading your post I felt your sincerity. I myself like classical and agree with your statement on the vinyl approach. Likewise I enjoy jazz and have the same feelings about some recording I feel personally attached. I still listen to CD's but I will admit 95% of my listening is from streaming TIDAL HI-Fi which is cd quality. However not everyone likes that venue. MO is that it is very affordable for what you get in of all the genre's. Not to mention storage and cataloging your personal favorites both by album and song. I will admit that in the classical vaults I wish there was more availability. I am NOT trying to persuade you to invest in TIDAL but they have a 30day FREE promotion. Also if you are a veteran there is a substantial discount. Just thought I would throw that info out to you. Good listening. |
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Post by yves on Apr 29, 2016 8:57:53 GMT -5
Hmmm, interesting the part when the bass was not there. RIAA curve usually rolls steeply causing bass loss. Digital does not follow that curve. There is no science there in the article worth fighting over what is better, but ultimately what you may like "better". No right, no wrong, just what you like. I like vinyl but the care, and the fact the music stops too soon before you have go up and flip the record, or put on another is a detractor for me. Digital music Playlists can be many before the music stops. To me that is much better, and keeps it simple, and portable. You cannot make Vinyl portable. Music at home or on the go makes digital better for me. If you are losing bass with vinyl, you need to get a better playback system. You don't need CDs to be able to use playlists because, last time I checked, playlists worked just as fine with Hi Res vinyl rips.  |
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Post by audiobill on Apr 29, 2016 9:14:40 GMT -5
Right, the RIAA curve is to flatten response from the cartridge, not to "roll off bass".
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Post by novisnick on Apr 29, 2016 9:18:57 GMT -5
Hmmm, interesting the part when the bass was not there. RIAA curve usually rolls steeply causing bass loss. Digital does not follow that curve. There is no science there in the article worth fighting over what is better, but ultimately what you may like "better". No right, no wrong, just what you like. I like vinyl but the care, and the fact the music stops too soon before you have go up and flip the record, or put on another is a detractor for me. Digital music Playlists can be many before the music stops. To me that is much better, and keeps it simple, and portable. You cannot make Vinyl portable. Music at home or on the go makes digital better for me. If you are losing bass with vinyl, you need to get a better playback system. You don't need CDs to be able to use playlists because, last time I checked, playlists worked just as fine with Hi Res vinyl rips. "If you are losing bass with vinyl, you need to get a better playback system." +1 Truth!! |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Apr 29, 2016 9:34:51 GMT -5
But I've never heard of anyone conducting a proper study about that... after all, magic markers come in LOTS of different colors.  To get the best sound from Vinyl you need to take a green magic marker and colour the edge of the record... /b |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 29, 2016 9:40:02 GMT -5
But I've never heard of anyone conducting a proper study about that... after all, magic markers come in LOTS of different colors. To get the best sound from Vinyl you need to take a green magic marker and colour the edge of the record... /b
After extensive research, this is the specific marker to use, model 407 F! Don't use the knockoffs!!  
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Post by monkumonku on Apr 29, 2016 9:51:56 GMT -5
But I've never heard of anyone conducting a proper study about that... after all, magic markers come in LOTS of different colors.
After extensive research, this is the specific marker to use, model 407 F! Don't use the knockoffs!!
View AttachmentActually there is an interesting story behind that. Did you know that Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" album was titled as a veiled reference to the use of a blue marker on the edge? The album title was a wink to those in the know back in those days that if they took the blue marker and colored the edge of the LP, it would unlock a higher level of fidelity than would otherwise be available. This helped to separate the mass of wannabes who thought they were cool jazz fans and showed up at clubs and bought the records just to impress, from the true jazz aficionados.  Several years later, Joni Mitchell also did this to separate the "deep" wannabes from those who really knew what the heck she was singing about. |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 29, 2016 9:55:33 GMT -5
I find that the "Blue" marker works best on my 45 rpm LPs
After extensive research, this is the specific marker to use, model 407 F! Don't use the knockoffs!!
Actually there is an interesting story behind that. Did you know that Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" album was titled as a veiled reference to the use of a blue marker on the edge? The album title was a wink to those in the know back in those days that if they took the blue marker and colored the edge of the LP, it would unlock a higher level of fidelity than would otherwise be available. This helped to separate the mass of wannabes who thought they were cool jazz fans and showed up at clubs and bought the records just to impress, from the true jazz aficionados. Several years later, Joni Mitchell also did this to separate the "deep" wannabes from those who really knew what the heck she was singing about. First of all, it only works on the 200 gram pressing and you've lost your membership for disclosing secret information from the Cool Jazz Guys Club!! Gezzzz! |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Apr 29, 2016 10:10:23 GMT -5
Indeed..... The RIAA curve reduces the bass and increases the treble when you master the record, then the RIAA playback curve reverses that process when you play it back; the end result should theoretically be a flat response. (And, when you reduce the treble at playback time, you also reduce the vinyl surface noise; RIAA EQ is really just a heavy-duty version of pre-emphasis/de-emphasis.) However, the practice is somewhat different than the theory. In practice the RIAA curves themselves are defined by "circuit time constants" - and the standard has been provisionally revised once or twice. The real problems are: 1) Even with RIAA, if there's too much low bass, the tracks must be made wider, which reduces the amount of time you can record on each side of the album. 2) A lot of powerful low bass may aggravate mechanical problems with some arms or cartridges. 3) The RIAA playback curve boosts the bass, which also emphasizes rumble produced by the turntable and the record itself; many phono preamps deliberately (or incidentally) roll off the low bass as a way of minimizing this issue. Personally, I find the fact that the RIAA curve, coupled with the mechanics and electronics of cutting records, REQUIRES that high-level high-frequency content be limited to be more of a problem. (Because of the RIAA pre-emphasis, high-level high frequency content can cause significant overloads at various points in the recording chain, and may even damage a cutting lathe. And, during playback, the higher tracking velocity of high-level high-frequency content makes it very difficult for a cartridge to track successfully. ) In short, the biggest problems with vinyl aren't the problems themselves, but the measures the recording engineer must take to AVOID the problems... and how those measures affect the sound. The other "problem" with RIAA equalization is simply that it is very "extreme" in nature. The RIAA process introduces a gain variation (between the gain at 20 Hz and the gain at 20 kHz) of about 20 dB. This means that the recording circuitry has to accommodate very high level signals, and apply aggressive EQ very carefully and accurately; and then the playback circuitry has to apply a lot of boost, followed by a lot of EQ, which must "line up" very precisely with the EQ applied when the recording was made. The simple reality is that it's a lot easier to design an amplifier circuit with a flat response than to design one that delivers a precisely calculated EQ curve. (Imagine your friend recording something, with the tone controls set all the way in one direction or the other, and your job is to use your tone controls to EXACTLY reverse the changes he made.) While many modern phono preamps follow the EQ curve quite precisely (like our XPS-1), many do not (and the majority of vintage ones do not). In practice, you aren't likely to find a vinyl recording that's flat down to 20 Hz - and it's very easy to record a CD that is (ignoring the question of whether there's anything "musically useful" at 20 Hz). In short, and ignoring the technical details, the signals and EQ involved in vinyl and RIAA EQ are "very difficult to get right", while the ANALOG portions of the digital recording and playback process are much less demanding. (So it's HARD to make a good phono preamp, but EASY to make a good analog section for a CD player.) Right, the RIAA curve is to flatten response from the cartridge, not to "roll off bass". |
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Post by Loop 7 on Apr 29, 2016 10:16:06 GMT -5
So, I decided digital is for me. Through the use of Amarra, warm-ish amplification and a nice DAC, I'm getting the sound I love. Very nice loop! Reading your post I felt your sincerity. I myself like classical and agree with your statement on the vinyl approach. Likewise I enjoy jazz and have the same feelings about some recording I feel personally attached. I still listen to CD's but I will admit 95% of my listening is from streaming TIDAL HI-Fi which is cd quality. However not everyone likes that venue. MO is that it is very affordable for what you get in of all the genre's. Not to mention storage and cataloging your personal favorites both by album and song. I will admit that in the classical vaults I wish there was more availability. I am NOT trying to persuade you to invest in TIDAL but they have a 30day FREE promotion. Also if you are a veteran there is a substantial discount. Just thought I would throw that info out to you. Good listening. I stream Google Play Music at work (320 mp3) so I'm a believer in streaming. My only hesitation with Tidal is the expense of their lossless family plan but I'll take your advice and try it for 30 days as well as the Amarra for Tidal product. I've heard the same about Tidal's limited classical collection. Google's is decent but I got the impression, after a free trial, that Apple Music's classical offering is darn good. |
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