Do I need a DAC?

[mall]

Hi all..am in need of some advice. My current music setup is:

Emotiva UMC-200
Emotiva UPA-500
Pioneer DVD Audio player - CD's, DVD-Audio and Multi Channel Discs (Coax & Analogue)>UMC-200
iPod Classic>Pure i20 Dock - Apple Lossless (RCA Analogue & Coax>UMC-200
WDTV Live - FLAC & Multi Channel Hi Res from NAS (HDMI & Coax)>UMC-200
Google Chromecast Audio - Spotify (Optical)>UMC-200
Emotiva ERM x 5
Emotiva Sub Woofer.

Overall, very happy with sound quality, but confused as to whether or nor a DC-1 would add any benefit or are the UMC-200 internal DAC's sufficient?

[hemster]

UMC-200 has very good DACs. However the DC-1 is exceptional IMHO. I use one in my office.

Nice beer in your avatar, BTW. Deffo a cut above VB and Carlton Cold!

[mall]

Thanks Hemster..If I were to acquire the DC-1, could you recommend a connection scenario?

Coopers Stout, very nice, almost as good as the stuff I brew. VB and Carlton Cold...yuk!!

[Loop 7]

UMC-200 does have nice DAC capability but I noticed a big jump in quality when I added an XDA-2 Gen 2 to my system.

[mall]

Jun 17, 2016 0:23:25 GMT -5 Loop 7 said:

UMC-200 does have nice DAC capability but I noticed a big jump in quality when I added an XDA-2 Gen 2 to my system.

Thanks, that's interesting. I do struggle however to understand how a DAC could fit in my current setup.

Any advice on how it would hook up?

[AudioHTIT]

Jun 17, 2016 0:38:42 GMT -5 mall said:

Jun 17, 2016 0:23:25 GMT -5 Loop 7 said:

UMC-200 does have nice DAC capability but I noticed a big jump in quality when I added an XDA-2 Gen 2 to my system.

Thanks, that's interesting. I do struggle however to understand how a DAC could fit in my current setup.

Any advice on how it would hook up?

An external DAC would only benefit two channel music, and you seem to have Hi Rez files so that qualifies. You would connect the output of your music sources to the input of the DAC, I see you have 3 coax connections, and the DC-1 (with a BNC adaptor) would handle 2. It should be possible to adapt the AES/EBU for a third coax input, I did it years ago with a simple adaptor, but most people say that won't work. You'd then take the analog output of the DAC to an analog input of the UMC-200.

Now, here's the important part, you would only benefit from this when using a 'reference 'mode' on your UMC-200 so that any internal digitizing was bypassed. So no surround modes, PEQ, probably no subs (not sure of the 200's particulars there), maybe no tone controls. If you use those things regularly, then it's probably not worth the trouble, because you're then running the signal through a second DAC and losing the advantage. Hope that helps.

[geebo]

And if you ever decide to get a pair of headphones the DC-1 has a very good headphone amp.

[garbulky]

Hmmm....this is a tough question. Right now it looks like you've got subs going and surround sound. With your current setup, I would say maybe not. If you can keep the signal all analog to the speakers then it may be pretty good. The XPA-1 and the DC-1 direct to each other is a match made in heaven.
However if you do decide to go for DACs, the DC-1 is a very nice DAC. The XDA-2 is not bad but it's not the same.

[yves]

Jun 17, 2016 6:00:53 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

Jun 17, 2016 0:38:42 GMT -5 mall said:

Thanks, that's interesting. I do struggle however to understand how a DAC could fit in my current setup.

Any advice on how it would hook up?

An external DAC would only benefit two channel music,

Not necessarily. The Exasound e28 Mark II DAC has six channels.

[Boomzilla]

Unless you want to hear hiss at high volume, yes, you need a DAC! LOL (forgive me, I couldn't resist!)

And the Stealth DC-1 comes with a 30-day return period. If you don't like it (I didn't), you can return it. Different ears = different DACs.

[majestyk]

Jun 16, 2016 23:30:50 GMT -5 hemster said:

However the DC-1 is exceptional IMHO. I use one in my office.

It's so good, it's in the office system. Hum...

[hemster]

Jun 20, 2016 2:58:55 GMT -5 majestyk said:

Jun 16, 2016 23:30:50 GMT -5 hemster said:

However the DC-1 is exceptional IMHO. I use one in my office.

It's so good, it's in the office system. Hum...

Look at my sig. I already have a great system in my theater. My office is worthy of a DC-1. Yes, it's that good. 

Where's your sig? What excellent system are you sporting, eh? 

[garbulky]

Well hemster since you asked I have decided to use these speakers recently. I am powering them off my iphone headphone out.

[hemster]

Jun 20, 2016 14:01:33 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Well hemster since you asked I have decided to use these speakers recently. I am powering them off my iphone headphone out.

I was asking majestik but glad to hear your speakers are enjoying being fed from the iPhone.

[LCSeminole]

Jun 20, 2016 14:01:33 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Well hemster since you asked I have decided to use these speakers recently. I am powering them off my iphone headphone out.

One of these would make one helluva center channel! Talk about expanding your front stage!

[mall]

Thanks for your considered (mostly) responses gents. I have some thinking to do. It seems I would need to upgrade my LR speakers as I currently utilise ERM 6.2's which need the XRef for low end.

[Gary Cook]

There are a whole pile of alternatives available to you and adding a DC-1 for input to a UMC-1 may not be the most effective method in the long term. Short term I have no doubt that you will notice an improvement in the stereo sound quality utilising the DC-1 but for similar cost you could improve the multichannel sound quality as well. I'm facing a similar conundrum, I prefer the sound quality from the BigEgo (to my ears) slightly more than from the UMC-200. I also prefer the ERC-3 sound but it's not a simple comparison as I'm using the XSP-14 as a preamp for ERC-3. My solution is to sell the UMC-200 and upgrade to an XMC-1. This will give me the superior DAC implementation for both stereo and multichannel use. If I find that I prefer the sound from the XMC-1 over the XSP-1 then I may also sell the XSP-1, although I have some doubts that it will actually happen (analogue bass management, quad differential circuitry, balanced connections etc).

In summary, the DC-1 (or an equivalent in another brand) may well be a short term solution, but does it fit your long term goals?


Cheers
Gary

[etc6849]

I would recommend you upgrade to an XMC-1 also. Most of these USB DACs are expensive and won't have dirac or crossover to your sub. You can buy a factory renewed XMC-1 for $1699 right now...

If you have large front left and right speakers, there are options like the Oppo HA-1 DAC that has a theater bypass mode, but again, I'd want bass management unless you have very large main speakers and even then, if setup right dual subs will give superior bass due to a number of reasons especially if you have Dirac.

[yves]

Jul 30, 2016 12:45:56 GMT -5 etc6849 said:

I would recommend you upgrade to an XMC-1 also. Most

of these USB DACs are expensive and won't have dirac or crossover to your sub. You can buy a factory renewed XMC-1 for $1699 right

now...

If you have large front left and right speakers, there are options like the Oppo HA-1 DAC that has a theater bypass mode, but

again, I'd want bass management unless you have very large main speakers and even then, if setup right dual subs will give superior

bass due to a number of reasons especially if you have Dirac.

There are pros and cons to everything. Dirac is just a piece of software that you can install on a PC, and, to be able to configure Dirac in the XMC-1, you also need a PC. But of course you don't need a PC anymore after Dirac has been configured in the XMC-1. That is, except if you want to be able to re-configure it some time in the future, and, I know I would... so once you can have accepted that you will be going to use a PC anyway, you are only one small step away from starting to see the pros that some USB DACs really have in store.

Personally, I, fancy listening to stereo music a lot more than watching movies in the best possible multichannel sound quality. That's why, for me, it didn't really matter that most of those USB DACs are expensive. The music simply matters more, and I tend to completely disagree with anyone who keeps insisting that, for listening to stereo music, adding affordable subs to a fairly high end stereo playback system is always easily worth the time, effort, and expense. In fact, I find that making it justifyable as an upgrade for stereo music playback would cost me something more in the vicinity of, say, 8 times the price of a strong DAC. But then, obviously that's just me.

[etc6849]

You are entitled to disagree in your opinion wrt to adding subs and your qualifier or effort and expense are correct. 

Granted I don't know what you mean by "affordable" as to me this means $2k or so...  There are some nice DIY options in the $2-3k range that will blow away almost all other options.  If you saying adding two off the shelf $200-400 subs will not be better and isn't worth the expense of buying a processor, I agree with you.

However, from a technical perspective there is a lot that says otherwise if one wants a no compromise system...
1. Google "intermodulation subwoofer;" turns out this is very audible at low frequencies to the human ear.  This is no audiophile BS as there are measurements on google.  You can both hear and measure this difference.
2. Having dual subs (wired in mono config) in ideal placement may be at different locations than your main speakers.  This is more than likely true, but depends on the room.
3. Subs can be properly time aligned using free software like Room EQ Wizard (REW), and will disappear into the stereo image when crossed over properly.  Almost no one takes the time to do this unfortunately.  Heck, I have an MS in Electrical Engineering and still spent 100's of hours studying this subject and trying to fully understand the REW manual that is hundreds of pages!  I'm not sure what the average Joe should do other than hire a professional audio engineer to set up their subs...  I find that most "experts" at the high end audio stores just want to sell snake oil and don't know anything either which probably doesn't help things.
4. You absolutely need more than a single sub to get better bass than a pair of nice speakers; this is almost always the case.  I have also found it is also good to elevate the dual subs off the floor or choose subs with stacked drivers.  Both these have to do with room modes/how the subs couple to the room. Again measurable, but stacked drivers is going to double the cost which proves your cost standpoint even more as will having two subs instead of one.
5. My speakers retail in the $20k range (didn't pay anywhere near that and bought used).  My room is very well treated too.  I still use dual subs and promise you can measure distortion with REW and see along with hear a difference.

I get that 99% of audiophiles are not as crazy as me.  Some just like that "full" bass sound (e.g. bass with distortion).  From a technical standpoint, my personal goal is to recreate what I listen to in as true of a fashion.  Once you train your ear to listen to bass with very low distortion (for example, my system is below 1% THD down to ~18 Hz at 90dBA in room as measured from the MLP), it will be very hard to go back to hearing bass with distortion.  Also room acoustics plays a big part as I strive for waterfall decay times below 100Hz that most have never heard (e.g. decays less than 180ms at 60dB down from the peak between 20-100Hz).  I love the tactile feel from a drum solo and want my system to be transparent to the source material, some may not though.

Jul 30, 2016 18:36:32 GMT -5 yves said:

Jul 30, 2016 12:45:56 GMT -5 etc6849 said:

I would recommend you upgrade to an XMC-1 also. Most

of these USB DACs are expensive and won't have dirac or crossover to your sub. You can buy a factory renewed XMC-1 for $1699 right

now...

If you have large front left and right speakers, there are options like the Oppo HA-1 DAC that has a theater bypass mode, but

again, I'd want bass management unless you have very large main speakers and even then, if setup right dual subs will give superior

bass due to a number of reasons especially if you have Dirac.

There are pros and cons to everything. Dirac is just a piece of software that you can install on a PC, and, to be able to configure Dirac in the XMC-1, you also need a PC. But of course you don't need a PC anymore after Dirac has been configured in the XMC-1. That is, except if you want to be able to re-configure it some time in the future, and, I know I would... so once you can have accepted that you will be going to use a PC anyway, you are only one small step away from starting to see the pros that some USB DACs really have in store.

Personally, I, fancy listening to stereo music a lot more than watching movies in the best possible multichannel sound quality. That's why, for me, it didn't really matter that most of those USB DACs are expensive. The music simply matters more, and I tend to completely disagree with anyone who keeps insisting that, for listening to stereo music, adding affordable subs to a fairly high end stereo playback system is always easily worth the time, effort, and expense. In fact, I find that making it justifyable as an upgrade for stereo music playback would cost me something more in the vicinity of, say, 8 times the price of a strong DAC. But then, obviously that's just me.