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Post by yves on Aug 5, 2016 14:23:27 GMT -5
You are entitled to disagree in your opinion wrt to adding subs and your qualifier or effort and expense are correct. Granted I don't know what you mean by "affordable" as to me this means $2k or so... There are some nice DIY options in the $2-3k range that will blow away almost all other options. If you saying adding two off the shelf $200-400 subs will not be better and isn't worth the expense of buying a processor, I agree with you. However, from a technical perspective there is a lot that says otherwise if one wants a no compromise system... 1. Google "intermodulation subwoofer;" turns out this is very audible at low frequencies to the human ear. This is no audiophile BS as there are measurements on google. You can both hear and measure this difference. 2. Having dual subs (wired in mono config) in ideal placement may be at different locations than your main speakers. This is more than likely true, but depends on the room. 3. Subs can be properly time aligned using free software like Room EQ Wizard (REW), and will disappear into the stereo image when crossed over properly. Almost no one takes the time to do this unfortunately. Heck, I have an MS in Electrical Engineering and still spent 100's of hours studying this subject and trying to fully understand the REW manual that is hundreds of pages! I'm not sure what the average Joe should do other than hire a professional audio engineer to set up their subs... I find that most "experts" at the high end audio stores just want to sell snake oil and don't know anything either which probably doesn't help things. 4. You absolutely need more than a single sub to get better bass than a pair of nice speakers; this is almost always the case. I have also found it is also good to elevate the dual subs off the floor or choose subs with stacked drivers. Both these have to do with room modes/how the subs couple to the room. Again measurable, but stacked drivers is going to double the cost which proves your cost standpoint even more as will having two subs instead of one. 5. My speakers retail in the $20k range (didn't pay anywhere near that and bought used). My room is very well treated too. I still use dual subs and promise you can measure distortion with REW and see along with hear a difference. I get that 99% of audiophiles are not as crazy as me. Some just like that "full" bass sound (e.g. bass with distortion). From a technical standpoint, my personal goal is to recreate what I listen to in as true of a fashion. Once you train your ear to listen to bass with very low distortion (for example, my system is below 1% THD down to ~18 Hz at 90dBA in room as measured from the MLP), it will be very hard to go back to hearing bass with distortion. Also room acoustics plays a big part as I strive for waterfall decay times below 100Hz that most have never heard (e.g. decays less than 180ms at 60dB down from the peak between 20-100Hz). I love the tactile feel from a drum solo and want my system to be transparent to the source material, some may not though. There are pros and cons to everything. Dirac is just a piece of software that you can install on a PC, and, to be able to configure Dirac in the XMC-1, you also need a PC. But of course you don't need a PC anymore after Dirac has been configured in the XMC-1. That is, except if you want to be able to re-configure it some time in the future, and, I know I would... so once you can have accepted that you will be going to use a PC anyway, you are only one small step away from starting to see the pros that some USB DACs really have in store. Personally, I, fancy listening to stereo music a lot more than watching movies in the best possible multichannel sound quality. That's why, for me, it didn't really matter that most of those USB DACs are expensive. The music simply matters more, and I tend to completely disagree with anyone who keeps insisting that, for listening to stereo music, adding affordable subs to a fairly high end stereo playback system is always easily worth the time, effort, and expense. In fact, I find that making it justifyable as an upgrade for stereo music playback would cost me something more in the vicinity of, say, 8 times the price of a strong DAC. But then, obviously that's just me. I have no real interest in DIY subs, but I feel confident that spending much less than $8,000 (retail price) on a pair of subs will not be an upgrade for my current setup for stereo music. |
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Post by etc6849 on Aug 5, 2016 17:31:17 GMT -5
Any pics of your setup? $8k including everything is not unrealistic if you want close to world class bass performance; to give you an idea you'd be out $2k in raw acoustic materials (still have to glue them together and wrap them to make bass traps), $1699 for the XMC-1, nicer mic and Dirac upgrade and the rest on subs... I promise there'd be a performance gain though that you'd hear and definitely feel. I have no real interest in DIY subs, but I feel confident that spending much less than $8,000 (retail price) on a pair of subs will not be an upgrade for my current setup for stereo music. |
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Post by yves on Aug 6, 2016 4:50:36 GMT -5
Any pics of your setup? $8k including everything is not unrealistic if you want close to world class bass performance; to give you an idea you'd be out $2k in raw acoustic materials (still have to glue them together and wrap them to make bass traps), $1699 for the XMC-1, nicer mic and Dirac upgrade and the rest on subs... I promise there'd be a performance gain though that you'd hear and definitely feel. I have no real interest in DIY subs, but I feel confident that spending much less than $8,000 (retail price) on a pair of subs will not be an upgrade for my current setup for stereo music. If you are suggesting that I could spend $4,300 on a pair of subs for stereo music, that would be completely out of the question. I was thinking more along the lines of adding a pair of REL Gibraltar G1s, and I know a pair of them can be had for $8k if you live in the U.S., but I live in Belgium so it would translate to something not much less than 9,200 Euro (and that's only IF I go shopping in The Netherlands because else it would be like 10,000 Euro instead). |
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Post by garbulky on Aug 6, 2016 7:33:34 GMT -5
No not $8000. You can get a noticeable worthwhile difference with dual subs under 2k. (Powersound audio) Of course you have to experiment with integration. The kind of solidity that happens when you do so is pretty incredible, even when your speakers are very comfortably playing way down low with authority.
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Post by etc6849 on Aug 6, 2016 10:24:43 GMT -5
Stuff is cheaper in the US. No doubt in the US I can order four of the 18" ultimax kits from parts express and outperform that sub in terms of THD and be well under $2k if I bought one of the chinese amps. Two of these stacked on each side would couple much better in a room than that G1 hugging the floor. Never owned REL, but any manufacturer who charges that much for a sub weighing only 100lbs is not serious. Got my pair of JL Audio F212's for under $6400 shipped to my door, but they are the version 1 model. Each weighs about 220lbs. I know I could have gone DIY and got the same performance, just don't have the space due to my bass traps which really help wrt in room bass accuracy. Any pics of your setup? $8k including everything is not unrealistic if you want close to world class bass performance; to give you an idea you'd be out $2k in raw acoustic materials (still have to glue them together and wrap them to make bass traps), $1699 for the XMC-1, nicer mic and Dirac upgrade and the rest on subs... I promise there'd be a performance gain though that you'd hear and definitely feel. If you are suggesting that I could spend $4,300 on a pair of subs for stereo music, that would be completely out of the question. I was thinking more along the lines of adding a pair of REL Gibraltar G1s, and I know a pair of them can be had for $8k if you live in the U.S., but I live in Belgium so it would translate to something not much less than 9,200 Euro (and that's only IF I go shopping in The Netherlands because else it would be like 10,000 Euro instead). |
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Post by etc6849 on Aug 6, 2016 10:30:07 GMT -5
Yeah, the equipment and bass traps do add several more thousand. $2k alone for the XMC-1 + minidsp USB calibrated mic + dirac upgrade. That is why I conceded to him. Definitely it would be more than $3k for me to be satisfied, but I have really high expectations wrt to audio. Here's some measurements of my setup: drive.google.com/open?id=0B1J0a4OV_WGLUVZBNUJBR29LTEUNo not $8000. You can get a noticeable worthwhile difference with dual subs under 2k. (Powersound audio) Of course you have to experiment with integration. The kind of solidity that happens when you do so is pretty incredible, even when your speakers are very comfortably playing way down low with authority. |
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