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Post by kauai82 on Sept 17, 2016 19:54:25 GMT -5
In the last few months I have been struggling to get my Denon AVR-X3200 sounding better than it was after the initial setup. Thanks to the forum and Chicknut (sp?) instructions on how one should set up the Receiver with speakers set to small instead of large and the sub crossover at 80hz. It sounded better after that, but still not as good as my Emotiva Fusion 8100 that I had moved down to the family room, but had used in my music room. I had been attracted to the Denon X3200 because of the DTS-X and Atmos capabilities and the fact that it had Pre-outs for all channels. Plus it was 2.2 HDMI capable. It also was on sale for $600 and Emotiva has not said much about their new AVR receiver. I knew that all watts are not created equal, but I had hoped that the Denon with 105 watts a channel into two channels would be enough to give me the punch that the Emotiva Fusion 8100 had. I was running the front speakers through my XSP-1 Gen 1 with a XPA-200 amp.
I felt somewhat confident that the Denon could drive the center Polk channel and the two surround DIY Overnight Sensations speakers with the power it had. I was wrong . I could not get the punch that I had with the Fusion 8100. I at first was not sure if it was a power problem or lack of or the Denon sound processor was not up to snuff. I was able to get ahold of an old NAD 3240PE amp that had pre outs and Main in jacks. Even though the NAD is rated at only 40 watts a channel- they are real watts not the kind that the new AVR's are advertising. It does not matter what manufacture of the main stream AVR receivers are they are using sub standard amplifier outputs in their units IMHO. I used the NAD to power the Overnight Sensations surrounds and the two mains were powered the front speakers. The Denon 3200 was now only powering the Polk center channel and it was able to handle that. The sound was much improved and the punch (not just the bass of the sub ) was back. I am now saving up to buy a BasX A500 to run the surround portion of the music room.
My concern is that the A500 will only drive three channels of the surround system. The Back surround channels and the center channel. The two front channels I want handled by the XPA-200. Will this setup work or will the two unused A500 channels hurt the amp ? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Matt
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Post by rbk123 on Sept 17, 2016 20:44:13 GMT -5
Hurt the amp? No. The prior Emo amp designs have a shared power supply so that if there are channels not being used, there is actually more power available to the channels that are being used. I assume the BasX is the same in that regard, but do not know for sure. Someone else will eventually confirm, but even if it weren't it wouldn't be harmful to only use some of the channels vs. all.
Any reason you don't want the A300?
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Post by garbulky on Sept 17, 2016 21:51:07 GMT -5
^^^ Yes what he said.
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Post by ribbonking on Sept 17, 2016 21:55:53 GMT -5
I've had the same receiver, Denon AVR-X3200, in my family room for the past two days.
Like you, I have not been overly impressed with it. Not sure what it is but could be power. Its not horrible but its not exciting me either. Part of it is the room - family room and kitchen combo open to the rest of the house with 17 foot ceilings and nearly floor to ceiling windows so not conducive to great sound. I scaled back already figuring I'd never get great sound in this room.
I have an Onkyo TX-NR818 but I just shipped it back to Onkyo for the dreaded HDMI board repair. Not sure what they will find, hence auditioning the Denon.
Watching the Ohio State - Oklahoma game now. Like the game but the audio.....blah.
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Post by leonski on Sept 18, 2016 1:06:10 GMT -5
As a general rule, AVR amp sections are not able to drive 4ohm loads. I've seen a few with a 4 or 6 ohm switch, which is actually to PROTECT the amp from the increased draw of lower impedance speakers.
I also figure that an AVR output is about 50% and maybe 60% of the '2 channel output' when driving 5 or more channels. Maybe even LESS if it is somekind of 7 or 9 channel monster.
Even Kaua82 noted the NAD at 40 watts did much better than the Denon. That may be for either or ALL of several reasons. Impedance curve of speaker might drop pretty low. REactance of speaker puts a big strain on the amp which the AVR amp was NOT built to handle OR the sensitivity of the speakers might simply be on the low side, in combination with either of the OTHER reasons I cite.
I can't think of a SINGLE reason for ME to own an AVR product of any kind.
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Post by kauai82 on Sept 18, 2016 13:10:47 GMT -5
I've had the same receiver, Denon AVR-X3200, in my family room for the past two days. Like you, I have not been overly impressed with it. Not sure what it is but could be power. Its not horrible but its not exciting me either. Part of it is the room - family room and kitchen combo open to the rest of the house with 17 foot ceilings and nearly floor to ceiling windows so not conducive to great sound. I scaled back already figuring I'd never get great sound in this room. I have an Onkyo TX-NR818 but I just shipped it back to Onkyo for the dreaded HDMI board repair. Not sure what they will find, hence auditioning the Denon. Watching the Ohio State - Oklahoma game now. Like the game but the audio.....blah. Check to see if the Denon has your front speakers set to "large" , it sounds better if the speakers are set to small. Also, make sure that the sub crossover is set to 80hz instead of 120hz that mine was set up. That should help somewhat. You have a large room so you could have a problem with having enough power to drive your speakers. Hope that this helps. Matt |
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Post by kauai82 on Sept 18, 2016 13:24:53 GMT -5
As a general rule, AVR amp sections are not able to drive 4ohm loads. I've seen a few with a 4 or 6 ohm switch, which is actually to PROTECT the amp from the increased draw of lower impedance speakers. I also figure that an AVR output is about 50% and maybe 60% of the '2 channel output' when driving 5 or more channels. Maybe even LESS if it is somekind of 7 or 9 channel monster. Even Kaua82 noted the NAD at 40 watts did much better than the Denon. That may be for either or ALL of several reasons. Impedance curve of speaker might drop pretty low. REactance of speaker puts a big strain on the amp which the AVR amp was NOT built to handle OR the sensitivity of the speakers might simply be on the low side, in combination with either of the OTHER reasons I cite. I can't think of a SINGLE reason for ME to own an AVR product of any kind. I am sure that if I had the room in my entertainment center or the dollars in my budget to spend on separates I would not have a AVR. I am looking forward to the day that I can have separates in the upstairs music room. As you pointed out very well the AVR have a total of 50% to 60% of the two channel output rating. I am not sure that it might be even less. All my speakers in my 5.1 setup except for the sub, a HSU 10 inch woofer and the Polk Center Channel are Do It Yourself speakers that I built or had built for me. The front Jasmines are pretty efficient, but the Overnight Sensations are fairly inefficient and take some power to drive them. I am sure Denon had problems driving the setup with the way it was. It seems that the NAD has fixed the problem for the present. I am looking forward to the MC-700 being released and sometime in the future the upgrade for the Fusion 8100. I must say for the money that my Fusion is the best sounding AVR I have heard for under $1200. Thanks for the input. |
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Post by kauai82 on Sept 18, 2016 13:27:19 GMT -5
Hurt the amp? No. The prior Emo amp designs have a shared power supply so that if there are channels not being used, there is actually more power available to the channels that are being used. I assume the BasX is the same in that regard, but do not know for sure. Someone else will eventually confirm, but even if it weren't it wouldn't be harmful to only use some of the channels vs. all. Any reason you don't want the A300? That is a very good point that I had not considered. I could use a higher powered two channel amp for the surround channels and let the Denon power the center speaker. Thanks for the suggestion. Matt |
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Post by rbk123 on Sept 18, 2016 21:22:17 GMT -5
The $100 does get you 3 more channels and much more flexibility. I thought they were further apart in price. I would stick with your original plan.
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Post by vcautokid on Sept 19, 2016 0:05:52 GMT -5
Actually the BasX A500 when run with main front stage, and surrounds will yield more control, and dynamics than the Denon could do on its own. You could run 5 channels effortlessly with confidence. Let the Denon drive another Zone of your house perhaps. Basically running the Denon as a Pre Pro, and letting the A500 run the rest. Surrounds won't consume that much power vs. front stage. Or you could run the front 3 as you planned, and let the Denon run the Surrounds with ease. Some options there at least.
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Post by wrinklemash on Sept 19, 2016 1:49:56 GMT -5
Hurt the amp? No. The prior Emo amp designs have a shared power supply so that if there are channels not being used, there is actually more power available to the channels that are being used. I assume the BasX is the same in that regard, but do not know for sure. Someone else will eventually confirm, but even if it weren't it wouldn't be harmful to only use some of the channels vs. all. Any reason you don't want the A300? That is a very good point that I had not considered. I could use a higher powered two channel amp for the surround channels and let the Denon power the center speaker. Thanks for the suggestion. Matt IMO - you will win either way with a an A500 or A300. The A500 can handle everything and provide more flexibility. Running 3 out five channels will not harm it. If you only run two with it, I suspect it will come close to delivering the same amount of power as the A300 as the channels draw from the same power supply. See my signature. I have done something similar. My home theater room has a pair of XPA-100 monoblocks for the mains and a pair of UPA-200's for twin centers and two surrounds. The UPA-200's are the predecessors to the A300's. I used to run the Definitive Technology towers with the receiver, then switched to one UPA-200 and my reaction was "Oh, that's what my speakers sound like!" Very dramatic improvement. Had the opportunity buy the XPA-100 monoblocks at good price, and those were a significant improvement over the UPA-200, but the difference was not as dramatic. I do plan on acquiring another UPA-200 and one more XPA-100 Gen1. When you bought the receiver, you made a wise decision to make sure it had pre-amp connections. |
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Post by wrinklemash on Sept 19, 2016 2:07:51 GMT -5
Hurt the amp? No. The prior Emo amp designs have a shared power supply so that if there are channels not being used, there is actually more power available to the channels that are being used. I assume the BasX is the same in that regard, but do not know for sure. Someone else will eventually confirm, but even if it weren't it wouldn't be harmful to only use some of the channels vs. all. Any reason you don't want the A300? That is a very good point that I had not considered. I could use a higher powered two channel amp for the surround channels and let the Denon power the center speaker. Thanks for the suggestion. Matt There might be another option, too. Consider purchasing a used XPA-5 Gen 1 or 2, and sell the XPA-200 to partially finance it. Depending on the price of the XPA-5 and what you could get for the XPA-200 (my guess $375) the net cost would be about the same if not less (before shipping). In the end, you'd have a cleaner and much more robust solution. - Scott P.S. If all you want is a 5 channel Emotiva amp like the A500, PM me. I have a good UPA-500 I'll make you a deal on. |
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Post by kauai82 on Sept 19, 2016 13:27:06 GMT -5
That is a very good point that I had not considered. I could use a higher powered two channel amp for the surround channels and let the Denon power the center speaker. Thanks for the suggestion. Matt There might be another option, too. Consider purchasing a used XPA-5 Gen 1 or 2, and sell the XPA-200 to partially finance it. Depending on the price of the XPA-5 and what you could get for the XPA-200 (my guess $375) the net cost would be about the same if not less (before shipping). In the end, you'd have a cleaner and much more robust solution. - Scott P.S. If all you want is a 5 channel Emotiva amp like the A500, PM me. I have a good UPA-500 I'll make you a deal on. PM sent. |
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jeffair10
Minor Hero
Jammin' ..always
Posts: 20 
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Post by jeffair10 on Apr 10, 2017 20:02:27 GMT -5
First post here. I do have a BasX A500 in my near future, to pair with my venerable UMC-1. Just sold my Adcoms, (GFA-535, GFA-535 II) to help fund the purchase (I do not control the funds, entirely..) For the time being I went back to my Pioneer VSX-816. It does 5.1 movie stuff pretty well, but it is amazing how flat it sounds when playing 2 channel music compared to the Adcoms/UMC-1 combo. I am looking forward to 5 channels of awesomeness via the A500.
Upgrading the UMC-1 and getting a kick butt center channel speaker are next on the list
Cheers folks!
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jeffair10
Minor Hero
Jammin' ..always
Posts: 20
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Post by jeffair10 on Apr 20, 2017 17:35:44 GMT -5
I have placed the order for a BasX A500! I cannot wait to put it in the rack! So disappointed with my old Pioneer AVR. I even switched out the front mains (Yammies) to a couple old school MCS 683-8330 Linear Phase Speakers that sound pretty good with adjustable mids and highs. Still the VSX -816 pukes out at higher volumes - which is where I live when I want to "feel" good, clean, 2.1 channel music.
Been eyeing up the Emotiva T1's too. Mmmm.
BTW, I will using all 5 channels for supreb 5.1 channel surround sound. I have a 10" Velodyne sub that thumps well. I also have a 10" Sony sub that I can add withe a Y cable if the base feels insufficient.
How many of you crank old school thrash metal through your system? My tastes go from late 80 through mid 90's metal, to base heavy dance music, i.e. Technotronic, Sweet Sensation, Tone Loc, etc. My all time favorite artist is Sade. I have not seen her in concert yet, unfortunately, But I have all of her mainstream stuff, including both live DVD's.
Cranking up Destruction's "Live Without Sense" after work is a fantastic pleasure - if my wife isn't home from work yet...
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Post by teaman on Apr 20, 2017 17:51:43 GMT -5
I have placed the order for a BasX A500! I cannot wait to put it in the rack! So disappointed with my old Pioneer AVR. I even switched out the front mains (Yammies) to a couple old school MCS 683-8330 Liner Phase Speakers that sound pretty good with adjustable mids and highs. Still the VSX -816 pukes out at higher volumes - which is where I live when I want to "feel" good, clean, 2.1 channel music. Been eyeing up the Emotiva T1's too. Mmmm. Since you like listening at loud levels you may benefit from a pair of Klipsch speakers. They are readily available on CL, Ebay, Audiogon, etc. Because the speakers are so sensitive you don't need much in the way of power. The MCS you own I believe are a clone to a Technics pair which are about 89db sensitive whereas the Klipsch are up around 96db or so, less power and more sound. Just a thought. Tim |
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jeffair10
Minor Hero
Jammin' ..always
Posts: 20
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Post by jeffair10 on Apr 20, 2017 18:37:31 GMT -5
I have placed the order for a BasX A500! I cannot wait to put it in the rack! So disappointed with my old Pioneer AVR. I even switched out the front mains (Yammies) to a couple old school MCS 683-8330 Liner Phase Speakers that sound pretty good with adjustable mids and highs. Still the VSX -816 pukes out at higher volumes - which is where I live when I want to "feel" good, clean, 2.1 channel music. Been eyeing up the Emotiva T1's too. Mmmm. Since you like listening at loud levels you may benefit from a pair of Klipsch speakers. They are readily available on CL, Ebay, Audiogon, etc. Because the speakers are so sensitive you don't need much in the way of power. The MCS you own I believe are a clone to a Technics pair which are about 89db sensitive whereas the Klipsch are up around 96db or so, less power and more sound. Just a thought. Tim Thx for the reply. I have been looking at Klipsch too, I have noticed their high sensitivity, and could put that to use. So many good choices out there. Current thinking is going 100% Emotiva, eventually. |
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jeffair10
Minor Hero
Jammin' ..always
Posts: 20
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Post by jeffair10 on Apr 20, 2017 18:45:57 GMT -5
Also, my Yamaha NS-A1236's are 92% efficient, and sound better than the MCS's at low volumes, but are nearly identical at higher volumes. Granted, this test was done with the Pioneer. We'll see what the difference is when I pair the A500 with my UMC-1.
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jeffair10
Minor Hero
Jammin' ..always
Posts: 20
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Post by jeffair10 on Apr 27, 2017 18:38:28 GMT -5
I have received my A-500! It arrived the other day, right on time, but tonight is my first chance to exercise it, I still haven't hooked everything up yet, but do have the Pioneer PD-F1009 301 CD player, the Sony BD Blu-Ray player and my Mecca Speck G2 DMP hooked up. I must say I am impressed with the overall improvement of sound clarity even through the old MCS's. Need to load the dishwasher, then I will fire up the Sony and take in a flick. Gone In 60 Seconds (remake) sounds pretty good in 5.1. May spin that one.  Attachments:
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