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Post by wrinklemash on Sept 20, 2016 5:55:56 GMT -5
Regarding the features, or more specifically the connectivity available for the processors coming out, take a look at the back panels compared to the UMC-200 and XMC-1 UMC-200  The new yet to be released BasX MC-700  The Emersa EMP-1  The back of the XMC-1  The rendering of the still in development RMC-1  |
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Post by teaman on Sept 20, 2016 10:13:36 GMT -5
I think if they release the new processors in a timely fashion they will be hits. On the other hand if they keep dragging their feet the gear will be obsolete before it hits the market
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Post by newprometheus on Sept 20, 2016 14:45:02 GMT -5
I am not sure that a discussion of a sub $1000 prepro with features and capabilities that are very similar to the forthcoming BasX MC-700 and Emersa EMP-1 makes much sense. Point taken, but the reality is that until these products actually become available, they're vaporware. In fact, it's not even certain that these products will actually ever become available, just like all the other products that seem to have been aborted along the way. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 20, 2016 16:25:35 GMT -5
In no way being critical of Emotiva, but to be blunt, one of the issues could be having a sub $1K processor that has major (not minor) features that their $2.5K processor doesn't have. I'm not sure that the retailers (it's not all direct anymore, there are retailers to be considered now) would be very happy trying to sell an Emotiva processor for about 3 times the price of another Emotiva processor that has more features. The same features but with better sound quality is saleable, it comes down to rating how many times better the sound quality is to justify 3 times the price. I'm not so sure about selling less features because the sound quality multiplier then gets much more difficult to justify.
From a marketing perspective I'd be tempted to hold back on launching the $800 processor until the $2500 processor had at least the same features. I'm not sure that there is room for 3 levels sub $2.5K, but it could help with relieving the conflicts between launch timing, price and feature sets.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by wrinklemash on Sept 20, 2016 17:15:58 GMT -5
I am not sure that a discussion of a sub $1000 prepro with features and capabilities that are very similar to the forthcoming BasX MC-700 and Emersa EMP-1 makes much sense. Point taken, but the reality is that until these products actually become available, they're vaporware. In fact, it's not even certain that these products will actually ever become available, just like all the other products that seem to have been aborted along the way. Regarding the Emersa EMP-1: In the last podcast, Big Dan noted that the entire Emersa line was fully developed, but was was being delayed because of USA production line restraints. In other words, they may do not have enough production capability/capacity to meet the demand of the USA constructed products they currently offer, much less any new ones. (If so, it is a good but but expensive problem!) This said, once they ramp up or get to it, I think the Emersa EMP-1 and everything else in that line is going to happen. With regards to the BasX MC-700: My understanding is that it is being produced in China, on a different production line, so the above may not apply to it. Hence my speculation Emotiva is tweaking it before release. (And Big Dan, if you are reading - thanks for the volume KNOB on the MC-700, but please don't put the microphone input on the back of the processor - EVER!!!) |
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Post by wrinklemash on Sept 20, 2016 17:30:29 GMT -5
In no way being critical of Emotiva, but to be blunt, one of the issues could be having a sub $1K processor that has major (not minor) features that their $2.5K processor doesn't have. I'm not sure that the retailers (it's not all direct anymore, there are retailers to be considered now) would be very happy trying to sell an Emotiva processor for about 3 times the price of another Emotiva processor that has more features. The same features but with better sound quality is saleable, it comes down to rating how many times better the sound quality is to justify 3 times the price. I'm not so sure about selling less features because the sound quality multiplier then gets much more difficult to justify. From a marketing perspective I'd be tempted to hold back on launching the $800 processor until the $2500 processor had at least the same features. I'm not sure that there is room for 3 levels sub $2.5K, but it could help with relieving the conflicts between launch timing, price and feature sets. Cheers Gary And this is precisely why I advocated for the "two X-series processor solution" in previous posts, especially when the current XMC-1 is eventually replaced. The upper end should be laden with features aimed at creating a high quality home theater experience. The the lower end less so and more focused on great execution for what it is. The upper end needs features aimed at dedicated home theater applications, the lower with unique features for game room/living room/ family room applications. The money in the HT focused unit will go into making a great HT experience. The money in the lower end would compromise a bit on the HT in lieu of flexibility. Both need to S.O.T.A. in their feature they offer, modular and up-gradable. |
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Post by adaboy on Sept 20, 2016 17:32:42 GMT -5
In no way being critical of Emotiva, but to be blunt, one of the issues could be having a sub $1K processor that has major (not minor) features that their $2.5K processor doesn't have. I'm not sure that the retailers (it's not all direct anymore, there are retailers to be considered now) would be very happy trying to sell an Emotiva processor for about 3 times the price of another Emotiva processor that has more features. The same features but with better sound quality is saleable, it comes down to rating how many times better the sound quality is to justify 3 times the price. I'm not so sure about selling less features because the sound quality multiplier then gets much more difficult to justify. From a marketing perspective I'd be tempted to hold back on launching the $800 processor until the $2500 processor had at least the same features. I'm not sure that there is room for 3 levels sub $2.5K, but it could help with relieving the conflicts between launch timing, price and feature sets. Cheers Gary And this is precisely why I advocated for the "two X-series processor solution" in previous posts, especially when the current XMC-1 is eventually replaced. The upper end should be laden with features aimed at creating a high quality home theater experience. The the lower end less so and more focused on great execution for what it is. The upper end needs features aimed at dedicated home theater applications, the lower with unique features for game room/living room/ family room applications. The money in the HT focused unit will go into making a great HT experience. The money in the lower end would compromise a bit on the HT in lieu of flexibility. Both need to S.O.T.A. in their feature they offer, modular and up-gradable. I figure the lower would be for 2ch guys with not much focus on video processing, more of pass through. I like the multiple X's idea. |
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Post by wrinklemash on Sept 20, 2016 18:32:34 GMT -5
I figure the lower would be for 2ch guys with not much focus on video processing, more of pass through. I like the multiple X's idea. There's a fine line between "for two channel guys" and an XSP-1 Gen2. But I see your point, if you are talking about a mainly two channel guy/gal who throws in a movie or watches a ballgame while entertaining and wants a quality experience. That would be a good description of the "lite XMC-1" customer. And that would be me. The upper end unit would be for folks with very nice, but not over the top home theaters that cannot afford to climb into a RMC-1. Like the current XMC-1, it would be aimed at the $2500-$3000 range. It should be a 7.2.4 Atmos/DTS:X capable to at least match the current XMC-1 with all the bells and whistles. (see my last comment about zones below) The "lite" version would be more for folks who may have a smaller, more modest HT and have limited use for 11.2 speakers, but want something more robust, flexible and robust than an Emersa EMP-1. Ideally the more modest processor should top out between $1200 and $1500 and have 5.2.4 or 7.2.2 Atmos/DTS:X capability. It would be better suited for people who have a basement/bonus/game/family/living/music room that is used for more than just home theater, and want control, quality and flexibility above that found in the Emersa and BasX units. So this is crude, but... - RMC-1 9.3.4 or 11.3.2
- XMC-1 Gen2 7.2.4 or 9.2.2
- XMC-2L Gen2 5.2.4 or 7.2.2
- Emersa EMP-1 5.1.2 ***
- BasX MC-700 5.1.2 ***
***I am just speculating, but I am hoping that the delay in the later two products is in part to add Atmos and DTS:X capability. Toi my knowledge, Emotiva has not indicated that they are actually doing this. This said, if they are adding Atmos and DTS:X to the BasX MC-700 and Emersa EMP-1, based on the connections in the pictures of the prototypes posted above, the most object based surround capability they will have is 5.1.2.
ZONESThe other feature unique to the next generation two unit X-series processor solution would be zone control. Again, based on the prototype back panel pictures, it does not appear that the Emersa EMP-1 and the BasX MC-700 will have zone capability. The discontinued UMC-200 did have it. The current model XMC-1 has it too, but my understanding is if you option for the the Atmos/DTS:X capability, Zone control will be lost as the height channels will utilize those outputs. In what I am suggesting, the new XMC-1 Gen2 would need a fairly simple rear panel chassis upgrade over the current and original XMC-1. I'm sure Dan, Lonnie and the bunch would tweak some other things internally too, if this route is taken. Hopefully not an overhaul, but a significant refreshing to improve the feature set, extend the life of the processing platform, and to improve the performance and value equations all with an eye towards reduce production time and costs for better margins. In the end, a more elegant engineering design solution. |
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Post by adaboy on Sept 20, 2016 18:45:12 GMT -5
I figure the lower would be for 2ch guys with not much focus on video processing, more of pass through. I like the multiple X's idea. There's a fine line between "for two channel guys" and an XSP-1 Gen2. But I see your point, if you are talking about a mainly two channel guy/gal who throws in a movie or watches a ballgame while entertaining and wants a quality experience. That would be a good description of the "lite XMC-1" customer. And that would be me. The upper end unit would be for folks with very nice, but not over the top home theaters that cannot afford to climb into a RMC-1. Like the current XMC-1, it would be aimed at the $2500-$3000 range. It should be a 7.2.4 Atmos/DTS:X capable to at least match the current XMC-1 with all the bells and whistles. (see my last comment about zones below) The "lite" version would be more for folks who may have a smaller, more modest HT and have limited use for 11.2 speakers, but want something more robust, flexible and robust than an Emersa EMP-1. Ideally the more modest processor should top out between $1200 and $1500 and have 5.2.4 or 7.2.2 Atmos/DTS:X capability. It would be better suited for people who have a basement/bonus/game/family/living/music room that is used for more than just home theater, and want control, quality and flexibility above that found in the Emersa and BasX units. So this is crude, but... - RMC-1 9.3.4 or 11.3.2
- XMC-1 Gen2 7.2.4 or 9.2.2
- XMC-2L Gen2 5.2.4 or 7.2.2
- Emersa EMP-1 5.1.2 ***
- BasX MC-700 5.1.2 ***
***I am just speculating, but I am hoping that the delay in the later two products is in part to add Atmos and DTS:X capability. Toi my knowledge, Emotiva has not indicated that they are actually doing this. This said, if they are adding Atmos and DTS:X to the BasX MC-700 and Emersa EMP-1, based on the connections in the pictures of the prototypes posted above, the most object based surround capability they will have is 5.1.2.
ZONESThe other feature unique to the next generation two unit X-series processor solution would be zone control. Again, based on the prototype back panel pictures, it does not appear that the Emersa EMP-1 and the BasX MC-700 will have zone capability. The discontinued UMC-200 did have it. The current model XMC-1 has it too, but my understanding is if you option for the the Atmos/DTS:X capability, Zone control will be lost as the height channels will utilize those outputs. In what I am suggesting, the new XMC-1 Gen2 would need a fairly simple rear panel chassis upgrade over the current and original XMC-1. I'm sure Dan, Lonnie and the bunch would tweak some other things internally too, if this route is taken. Hopefully not an overhaul, but a significant refreshing to improve the feature set, extend the life of the processing platform, and to improve the performance and value equations all with an eye towards reduce production time and costs for better margins. In the end, a more elegant engineering design solution. I understand your view here, but what if all we want is Left channel and Right channel maybe sub out? None of the rest of the outputs as this adds to the cost. |
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Post by Axis on Sept 20, 2016 18:57:19 GMT -5
Why are you guys wanting to spend more than $1000 is what I want to know.
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Post by adaboy on Sept 20, 2016 18:59:30 GMT -5
Why are you guys wanting to spend more than $1000 is what I want to know. I'm with you on this Axis... That makes no sense... I want a downsized version and pay less, but these guys want to pay more??? |
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Post by Axis on Sept 20, 2016 19:05:47 GMT -5
Why are you guys wanting to spend more than $1000 is what I want to know. I'm with you on this Axis... That makes no sense... I want a downsized version and pay less, but these guys want to pay more??? Thank you adaboy. It was a flaw in the survey ! The whole point of this is the EMP-1 is under $1000 and it does not match up with Emotiva amps. They are going to make both BasX and Emersa gear and the thought I had going into saying scratch them both was not that they would, but think about it Emotiva. |
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Post by wrinklemash on Sept 20, 2016 19:12:47 GMT -5
Why are you guys wanting to spend more than $1000 is what I want to know. I am being realistic. If the EMP-1 is slated for $899, then a step in between it and the XMC-1 would almost have to be over $1000, unless its $999 or something ---which I would welcome, but it is not likely. And again, from a business perspective, I do not see the point of third sub-$1000 processor, which is what I believe is be advocated here, if Emotiva does indeed have the BasX MC-700 and Emersa EMP-1 coming out. It's just redundant. My hope is that they received some feedback on both and are tweaking both designs to better suit the needs of the users including the people who are advocating for a sub $1000 processor in this thread. The EMP-1 has been delayed for a stated reason - production capability. But, we have not seen any substantial mention of the BasX MC-700 since this spring. I sincerely hope tweaking is why we have not seen the BasX MC-700 on the website yet. |
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Post by wrinklemash on Sept 20, 2016 19:24:38 GMT -5
I understand your view here, but what if all we want is Left channel and Right channel maybe sub out? None of the rest of the outputs as this adds to the cost. If there is a need for just 2 channel stereo inputs and outputs, then doesn't a XSP-1 pre-amplifier, or a BasX PT-100 pre-amplifier, not a surround processor, satisfy that need? Are we talking about different animals here? Emotiva had a pure pre-amplfier called a USP-1, but it was discontinued. If you are seeking a 2 channel pre-amplifier with 2.1 level room correction (there is such a thing) above the BasX PT-100, I see your point. But otherwise, I don't get "for the two channel guys" part. |
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Post by Axis on Sept 20, 2016 19:26:15 GMT -5
Why are you guys wanting to spend more than $1000 is what I want to know. I am being realistic. If the EMP-1 is slated for $899, then a step in between it and the XMC-1 would almost have to be over $1000, unless its $999 or something ---which I would welcome, but it is not likely. And again, from a business perspective, I do not see the point of third sub-$1000 processor, which is what I believe is be advocated here, if Emotiva does indeed have the BasX MC-700 and Emersa EMP-1 coming out. It's just redundant. My hope is that they received some feedback on both and are tweaking both designs to better suit the needs of the users including the people who are advocating for a sub $1000 processor in this thread. The EMP-1 has been delayed for a stated reason - production capability. But, we have not seen any substantial mention of the BasX MC-700 since this spring. I sincerely hope tweaking is why we have not seen the BasX MC-700 on the website yet. Were not talking the XMC-1 and I think they can do this Texas instrument based processor for under $ 1000 with HDMI 2.o b or whatever it is 4k HDR. This is called trickle down technology or whatever you want to call it. Emotiva is going to come out with the MC-700 with the UMC operating system and room correction that it had. That's there call. I would not have made it. I want to press them to use there new platform at a much lower cost and it does not need to be 16 channels with Atmos. Someone needs to be making 5.1 easy peasy japanesey stuff for all those who do not want to spend big bucks on home theater and only want to watch tv and movies. They will never want or need more than five channel surround. Everyone is building bigger and I think they are forgetting the masses that don't get that. |
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Post by wrinklemash on Sept 20, 2016 20:29:30 GMT -5
Were not talking the XMC-1 and I think they can do this Texas instrument based processor for under $ 1000 with HDMI 2.o b or whatever it is 4k HDR. This is called trickle down technology or whatever you want to call it. We are going to have to agree to disagree here. IMO - they are doing just that in the Emersa EMP-1, problem is it does not look like a 'standard' Emotiva product. Emotiva is going to come out with the MC-700 with the UMC operating system and room correction that it had. That's there call. I would not have made it. I do agree with you here, but all indication is that they are doing it. I want to press them to use there new platform at a much lower cost and it does not need to be 16 channels with Atmos. Someone needs to be making 5.1 easy peasy japanesey stuff for all those who do not want to spend big bucks on home theater and only want to watch tv and movies. They will never want or need more than five channel surround. Everyone is building bigger and I think they are forgetting the masses that don't get that. I would love for them to do that, but I am being a pragmatist. Sorry you are not going to like what I have to say here, but I am going to say it. My understanding is the TI-Based chip stuff is made in Franklin, TN, USA. The UMC-1 based stuff is made in China. At present, and per the last podcast, the entire USA made Emersa line has been delayed due to Emotiva being too busy with other stuff in the USA HQ and plant. Translation, they have exceeded the current limits of their production capacity. And there is other evidence to make me believe this --- they are just recently getting the wait time for the XPA Gen3 amps produced at that facility with the XMC-1 to under two weeks. So, if they are too busy with their current production capacity, why in the world would they add a high volume product to their mix would grossly tax their capacity further? If you have ever been to Emotiva HQ you will see that they are expanding as fast as they can (within reason), but cannot expand fast enough. It's a good, but costly problem to have. IMO - The lack of capacity is why the MC-700 is in development. It addresses the lowest end of the "easy Japaneesy, Chineesy" stuff as you said. It will also not be made in the Franklin facility. For convenience it based the older but good tech. Could they shift some of the production somewhere else like China, sure? there is a HUGE but though. At this point, any small American company should know that they should never ever outsource their really good "newer" tech and knowledge to China if I had to. OEMs over there tend to appropriate it for themselves and other opportunists. If I were Dan Laufman, I would not even think about putting anything based on the TI Chips over there anytime soon. Will the technology itself be obsolete soon? Yes, but the knowledge of how to produce a SOTA device will not go obsolete. Outsourcing the work still teaches the Chinese your procedural competitive advantages - and they have the sheer population mass and brain power to catch on in a hurry. This said, the UMC-1 was made there, and the UMC-1 based BasX MC-700 can be made there too - because no significant new knowledge is being spread around. In the end, the reason why I am advocating a future, two-level X-series solution is that I believe Emotiva could produce a second lower volume unit in time in Franklin, TN. They would have to continue to add production capacity, but it is doable in the USA. Of course, everything I just said could be completely untrue. And yes, they could technically produce a less expensive processor in the USA at some point. but I just have serious doubts that they can do it at the price point of less than $1000 anytime soon. When the production of moved to the USA, the quality of the products moved up as well for a very good reason. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 20, 2016 20:32:17 GMT -5
I understand your view here, but what if all we want is Left channel and Right channel maybe sub out? None of the rest of the outputs as this adds to the cost. I use an XSP-1 for that. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 20, 2016 20:47:28 GMT -5
If the Chinese wanted to copy an XMC-1 they would just buy one and reverse engineer it. Consequently I just don't buy that as an excuse for not making the volume processor in China. There may well be other valid reasons, marketing, quality control, minimum production runs, inventory holding, shipping time etc. But protecting intellectual property, I don't think so. Keeping in mind that Denon and Onkyo have used Ti/Burr Brown DAC implementations in AVR's for years.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by adaboy on Sept 20, 2016 20:50:31 GMT -5
Something like this. Jolida Fusion Dac Pre (minus the tubes) I like them but want a solid state version.   |
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Post by wrinklemash on Sept 20, 2016 21:39:26 GMT -5
If the Chinese wanted to copy an XMC-1 they would just buy one and reverse engineer it. Yes, they sure could. But the process of manufacturing such things is actually as important, if not more important. Reverse engineering is the taking of fish and then learning to catch them. Outsourcing is giving them fish and also teaching them how to fish. The Chinese are known to eat a lot of fish. Consequently I just don't buy that as an excuse for not making the volume processor in China. There may well be other valid reasons, marketing, quality control, minimum production runs, inventory holding, shipping time etc. That's your prerogative. Don't buy it if you do not want to. But IP is in the mix of reasons you listed and IP is increasingly cited by more and more American managers as a top reason why they would prefer NOT to outsource to China, Vietnam, Malaysia, India (to some degree) and other places in the far east where IP protection is lax. IP protection is increasingly cited as "a deciding" reason along with Chinese wage increases (costs) for reduced and/or limited outsourcing to China. Of course, Dan might not have been thinking IP protection at all. From my perspective, it was my reason, if I were him, not to manufacture that particular product over there. Keeping in mind that Denon and Onkyo have used Ti/Burr Brown DAC implementations in AVR's for years...... True, but Denon and Onkyo are different animals, especially in terms of size and market power relative to Emotiva. Smaller companies have fewer protections and on the ground host country "resources" than do larger companies to shepherd the process knowledge.. Also, smaller, more nimble companies are often more cutting edge and have more to offer would be IP opportunists. Its been proven and flatly stated by the Chinese that they value the knowledge of the these smaller firms. BTW - Its not that I hate our pacific trading partners, past behavior predicts future behavior and I don't trust them. |
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