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Post by leonski on Oct 1, 2016 16:16:09 GMT -5
When buying something like any of the OC product, and I suspect the Roxwool, too you pay a PREMIUM for a single piece. Sometimes a LOT and than shipping.
Buying whatever the vendor pack is should save a bundle, if you'll pardon the expression.
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Post by yves on Oct 1, 2016 20:14:13 GMT -5
Should I aim to build regular tri-traps for my coners, or should I build something square like the GIK soffit traps? Thoughts? Both types will work, as long as you choose the right type of materials and you can make them thick enough (see long winded explanation below). Also, can any insulation be used for treatments? Or is there something special about the roxul product? No, if the insulation material is foam based then it needs to be open cell foam such that air particles will be able to penetrate, hence the materials are called "porous absorbing" (they absorb sound waves due to moving air entering the pores and being slowed down by friction). Closed cell foam products will simply reflect the sound waves back. Fibrous insulation, like fiberglass and mineral wool, are generally much more cost effective than foam products, though. So that's why they're often preferred in acoustic treatments. Mineral wool batts are floppy, so they need a little extra construction work to be held up. Rigid sheets of fiberglass like Owens Corning 703 are expensive, but are easy to be used to straddle a corner because of their rigidity thus might save on extra construction time, effort, and parts used for construction so cost is relative to what is available to you. Another important factor is gas flow resistivity. For a given thickness, there exists an optimum gas flow resistivity depending on what it is you are trying to achieve because if resistivity is too low vs. the thickness, lower frequency sound waves will pass through too easily without being absorbed much. Whereas too high resistivity means too much sound will start getting reflected back before it can penetrate through, thereby causing the back portion of the insulation to be wasted. Remember, sound waves pass through the material twice (one time via the front face through to the hard reflective surface behind it, and another time after being reflected back). At 12″ or thicker, lower gas flow resistivity products like cheap pink fluffy standard attic fiberglass insulation have been shown to work better than the lowest density mineral wool products like Roxul R35 or R40. However, this also depends on what exactly it is you are trying to achieve. Stuffing a corner with pink fluffy might perform better at 40 Hz, for example, but if you are trying to eliminate 55 Hz, for another practical example, then you might be better off by putting Roxul in the front half of the corner bass trap and filling up the back half of this same bass trap with pink fluffy. There's only one real way to find out. Measurements, measurements... Fiberglass and mineral wool come in two variants, one type has a membrane lining bonded to it on either one side or both sides, the other type has none. To treat early reflection points, the membrane should be peeled off or use the type that doesn't have one. Don't use a membrane anywhere except on the front face of a porous absorbing (corner) bass trap, where it can be glued on by using spray glue like 3M Super 77, or buy the type of insulation that has a membrane on one side like Owens Corning "FRK" sheets of fiberglass. Kraft paper (the kind of paper that grocery bags are made of) or thin plastic foil works as a membrane. In fact, the "K" in FRK stands for Kraft. Adding a membrane to the front face of an absorber bass trap improves bass trapping performance slightly as well as reflects back some mid and high frequency energy (useful if trying to not overabsorb mids and highs, as it is easy to overly absorb mids and highs causing the room to sound dead, or "dry"). If using spray glue to attach a membrane, use enough glue to ensure a tight bonding, but also make sure to not soak the fibers. Breathable (acoustically transparent) fabric used for aesthetics should not touch the membrane. Leaving an air gap behind a panel absorber or corner bass trap reduces material cost while it provides extra thickness. Thicker means better absorption at lower frequencies (reason why heavy drapes, egg cartons and carpet don't work: bass waves go straight through them as though nothing were there, while it is easy to overabsorb mids / highs making the problem only worse). If cost is a limiting factor, treating more corners of the room with more bass traps is more effective than going for fewer bass traps to treat fewer corners with thicker bass traps. So if having to choose between straddling more corners (more total surface area made absorptive in corners) with rigid sheets of fiberglass insulation vs. using sheets for doubling thickness like using two 2″ thick sheets to create a single 4″ thick one, go for treating additional corners. Stuffing the air gap behind them with pink fluffy or leaving as-is and maybe adding pink fluffy at a future time when budget allows, you generally can't have too many bass traps in your room. This doesn't mean it should be recommended to ignore other acoustics problems by overly focusing on bass traps vs. other treatments. It just means other problems are much easier to treat at much lower cost than bass problems; the latter problems exist in all rooms, and are typically much more severe. Corner bass traps work in all corners, including the corners between the walls and ceiling, as well as between the walls and floor. Trihedal corners (where three surfaces meet) merit special bass trapping attention, as bass waves tend to build up primarily in these, secondarily in all other (dihedral) corners. This should get you an idea of which types of insulation materials can fit into your plan of attack. |
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Post by jlafrenz on Oct 1, 2016 20:43:00 GMT -5
Don't forget: It is VERY possible to 'over damp' a room. If some absorption is good, than a LOT must be terrific is NOT quite correct. A dull room is nearly as bad as an echo chamber. My BRIEF experience in a recording studio was that 2 persons standing back to back could hear each othe but not really tell WHERE the other person was standing. Most of the audible 'cues' are missing from the deadest spaces. Instead? Think about DIFFUSION, which is the 3rd leg of room treatments. 1= reflection 2= absorption 3= diffusion IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER. There are literally DOZENS of DIY vids and sites detailing the HOW and WHY of diffusion as well as step-by-step and 'build list' oriented instruction. People who own PANELS (hey! that's ME) are well served by installing diffusion on the wall behind the panel (the 'front' wall) in order to improve imaging and make the room sound larger. Just keep in mind that it is possible to overdo most ANY type of treatments and a good room will have balance and address a few principles. As always, start with a GOOD FUNDAMENTAL SETUP which makes later treatment easier. For box speaker owners, many start by treating the first reflection points and going from there. These days, it is also possible to measure and get meaningful results. www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.phpThe cardas information is both fairly complete and detailed but also highly regarded. Good thoughts here. Diffusion may be an option. After some research I have found that it is typically best in larger rooms. It also depends on where your seating is in relation to the diffusion. I do suggest a quick search of diffusion vs. absorption. There is some good info out there. I am also a fan of the Cardas speaker setup method. It has yielded good results many times for me. |
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Post by ehmokey on Oct 2, 2016 21:24:32 GMT -5
A bit late to the party, but wanted to share my experience. I have a small odd room in the basement (15'L x 12'W x 6.4H). Front wall is cinder block. Right wall is cinder block with shelves holding board games, the left wall has paneling and is not insulated. Open Stairs creating the "back wall" which is open to another section of the basement. An acoustical mess for sure.
I worked with Bryan Pape from GIK who was very patient with my lack of knowledge. He recommended corner tri traps and six 244 bass traps to start. I purchased the tri traps and four 244s. The improvement was palpable and I could not be happier.
If you are having issues sourcing materials, GIK sells them as well if I am not mistaken.
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Post by garbulky on Oct 2, 2016 23:39:50 GMT -5
Interestingly I am in the process of exploring room treatments myself. It is illuminating how the treatments can change the sound. I bought a whole lot and I found that just throwing the room panels on isn't necessarily the right fix. Sometimes it can mess things up.
But having enough does allow you to experiment to find the right mix. What room treatment can bring you is you can hear more of the recording ambience rather than the ambience contributed by your room. There's also more details being revealed. Better left to right imaging in the soundstage can be heard. Especially when you hear things shift from left to right slowly. It doesn't feel like it shifts in "lumps". Right, vaguely between right and center, a bit closer to center, center, etc. It's just a smooth shift with less anomalies with the sound.
It's been interesting to see how my Axioms react to room treatments and how the sound changes as I try different configurations.
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Post by jcisbig on Oct 3, 2016 11:52:39 GMT -5
Ok, so I've doing quite a bit of thinking about everything you guys have said and I think I'm ready to pull the trigger on DIY treatments for my room. I'd like to outline my general plans for each type of trap and have you all make sure that I'm thinking clearly about what I'm doing. Standard 2x4 Traps: - I'll be putting these on my sidewalls to deal with 1st reflections - I'll also be putting some on my front wall to help with any reflected sound near my main speakers Bass Traps: - I'll be putting two columns of bass traps in my front corners from floor to ceiling. - I'm planning for them to be square in shape, about 17" on each side, and I'll make a 4ft one and one slightly less than 4ft so that it fits my room height - I'm trying to style them after the GIK Soffit trap, and not the triangular Tri-Trap. Construction of Standard Traps: - I'll be making a 4ft x 2ft (or maybe a little bigger to fit the actual dimensions of my insulation) frame out of 1"x4" wood - I'll place insulation flush with the front face of the frame (this will leave a bit of an air gap behind the insulation before it meets the wall) - I'll cover the insulation and the frame with black material Construction of the Bass Traps: - I'm planning to have a 2ft x 2ft square of 1/4 in plywood for the base and the top of each trap - I'll be using 2"x2" supports at the four corners - I'm still trying to figure out a good way to "brace" that structure to keep it from twisting. Maybe I'll put a couple cross pieces between some of the 2x2s - I'll cut insulation to fit the square and stack it up inside of the four 2x2s - I'll cover with my black material For the insulation (for all the treatments) I'm considering using the Roxul insulation at the link below. It's rated at 2.5lb per foot, which is close to the 3lb that was recommended for me to use. www.lowes.com/pd/Roxul-59-7-sq-ft-Unfaced-Stone-Wool-Batt-Insulation-with-Sound-Barrier-23-in-W-x-47-in-L/4382951Thoughts? |
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Post by jcisbig on Oct 5, 2016 11:18:35 GMT -5
Bump for responses to my last post!
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Post by sebastianr on Oct 5, 2016 13:23:38 GMT -5
Yes, I used that Roxul safe'n'sound for my bass traps but that is all I built DIY. My panels were purchased and manufactured from ATS.
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Post by sancho89 on Oct 5, 2016 22:53:44 GMT -5
I had GIK acoustic panels, then I got emotiva speakers and didn't seem to need it anymore.
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Post by jcisbig on Oct 6, 2016 9:24:35 GMT -5
I had GIK acoustic panels, then I got emotiva speakers and didn't seem to need it anymore. This would be one of the first times that I've heard people going from a treated room to an untreated room and hearing no difference in the sound! What's your room like? Why do you think treatments didn't help with anything after having Emo speakers? |
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Post by jlafrenz on Oct 7, 2016 13:19:38 GMT -5
Ok, so I've doing quite a bit of thinking about everything you guys have said and I think I'm ready to pull the trigger on DIY treatments for my room. I'd like to outline my general plans for each type of trap and have you all make sure that I'm thinking clearly about what I'm doing. Standard 2x4 Traps: - I'll be putting these on my sidewalls to deal with 1st reflections - I'll also be putting some on my front wall to help with any reflected sound near my main speakers Bass Traps: - I'll be putting two columns of bass traps in my front corners from floor to ceiling. - I'm planning for them to be square in shape, about 17" on each side, and I'll make a 4ft one and one slightly less than 4ft so that it fits my room height - I'm trying to style them after the GIK Soffit trap, and not the triangular Tri-Trap. Construction of Standard Traps: - I'll be making a 4ft x 2ft (or maybe a little bigger to fit the actual dimensions of my insulation) frame out of 1"x4" wood - I'll place insulation flush with the front face of the frame (this will leave a bit of an air gap behind the insulation before it meets the wall) - I'll cover the insulation and the frame with black material Construction of the Bass Traps: - I'm planning to have a 2ft x 2ft square of 1/4 in plywood for the base and the top of each trap - I'll be using 2"x2" supports at the four corners - I'm still trying to figure out a good way to "brace" that structure to keep it from twisting. Maybe I'll put a couple cross pieces between some of the 2x2s - I'll cut insulation to fit the square and stack it up inside of the four 2x2s - I'll cover with my black material For the insulation (for all the treatments) I'm considering using the Roxul insulation at the link below. It's rated at 2.5lb per foot, which is close to the 3lb that was recommended for me to use. www.lowes.com/pd/Roxul-59-7-sq-ft-Unfaced-Stone-Wool-Batt-Insulation-with-Sound-Barrier-23-in-W-x-47-in-L/4382951Thoughts? Curious as to why you are building a square trap in the corner? Is this for more absorption or for ease of building? You also mention building the frame 2' x 2', but state that the material will only be 17 inches on each side. Did I misread or misunderstand your design here? |
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Post by leonski on Oct 7, 2016 14:17:35 GMT -5
If you can stand the utter frustration of dealing with marginal but FREE software, I'd get a copy of GOOGLE SKETCHUP and MAKE DRAWINGS. Done properlly, you can even make a CutList and simply start cookie-cutting your wood for the frames with assurance that if you do YOUR job, it'll be fine. You might know what you want and even build it. But try to clearly TELL someone what you did? Just my opinion, but most persons fall short at that task. So? No more problems with the difference between 2" (inches) or 2' (feet) or even if the drawing was done in the metric system. With some practice, you can even do some pretty complicated stuff or even draw plans for your house or listening area. Time spent doing advanced drawings is far better spent than throwing darts at a pile of wood. Attached image was done in Sketchup and is a rendering of my proposed BBQ table to hold my BGE. If you had the file, you could rotate, walk around it and take measurements of EACH piece of wood or material. ![]()  |
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Post by jcisbig on Oct 7, 2016 14:24:36 GMT -5
Ok, so I've doing quite a bit of thinking about everything you guys have said and I think I'm ready to pull the trigger on DIY treatments for my room. I'd like to outline my general plans for each type of trap and have you all make sure that I'm thinking clearly about what I'm doing. Standard 2x4 Traps: - I'll be putting these on my sidewalls to deal with 1st reflections - I'll also be putting some on my front wall to help with any reflected sound near my main speakers Bass Traps: - I'll be putting two columns of bass traps in my front corners from floor to ceiling. - I'm planning for them to be square in shape, about 17" on each side, and I'll make a 4ft one and one slightly less than 4ft so that it fits my room height - I'm trying to style them after the GIK Soffit trap, and not the triangular Tri-Trap. Construction of Standard Traps: - I'll be making a 4ft x 2ft (or maybe a little bigger to fit the actual dimensions of my insulation) frame out of 1"x4" wood - I'll place insulation flush with the front face of the frame (this will leave a bit of an air gap behind the insulation before it meets the wall) - I'll cover the insulation and the frame with black material Construction of the Bass Traps: - I'm planning to have a 2ft x 2ft square of 1/4 in plywood for the base and the top of each trap - I'll be using 2"x2" supports at the four corners - I'm still trying to figure out a good way to "brace" that structure to keep it from twisting. Maybe I'll put a couple cross pieces between some of the 2x2s - I'll cut insulation to fit the square and stack it up inside of the four 2x2s - I'll cover with my black material For the insulation (for all the treatments) I'm considering using the Roxul insulation at the link below. It's rated at 2.5lb per foot, which is close to the 3lb that was recommended for me to use. www.lowes.com/pd/Roxul-59-7-sq-ft-Unfaced-Stone-Wool-Batt-Insulation-with-Sound-Barrier-23-in-W-x-47-in-L/4382951Thoughts? Curious as to why you are building a square trap in the corner? Is this for more absorption or for ease of building? You also mention building the frame 2' x 2', but state that the material will only be 17 inches on each side. Did I misread or misunderstand your design here? Thank you for reminding me of this! I did buy 2ft x 2ft plywood, but I need to remember to cut it down to about 17.5in square in order to do my traps. I'm wanting to try a square trap instead of a triangle trap for a couple reasons. One, according to some, it allows the trap to absorb slightly lower frequencies than the standard tri trap. And two, it provides more overall absorption in the room (more efficient) than the standard tri traps. |
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Post by jcisbig on Oct 7, 2016 14:25:00 GMT -5
If you can stand the utter frustration of dealing with marginal but FREE software, I'd get a copy of GOOGLE SKETCHUP and MAKE DRAWINGS. Done properlly, you can even make a CutList and simply start cookie-cutting your wood for the frames with assurance that if you do YOUR job, it'll be fine. So? No more problems with the difference between 2" (inches) or 2' (feet) or even if the drawing was done in the metric system. With some practice, you can even do some pretty complicated stuff or even draw plans for your house or listening area. Time spent doing advance drawings is far better spent than throwing darts at a pile of wood. Screen Shot 2014-09-04 at 9.34.16 PM.png Attached MIGHT be a rendering I did for a BBQ Table to hold my grill Your picture didn't show up? |
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Post by leonski on Oct 7, 2016 14:26:39 GMT -5
Fixed problem with an Edit. Image is clickable and gets pretty big when you do. Just an example from sketch up. This is what my panel reframe will look like. Attachments:
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Post by jlafrenz on Oct 7, 2016 14:36:02 GMT -5
You would essentially need to build a frame that is similar to a storage shelf. I would find a way to not have the solid shelves though. The pink fluffy will compress under its own weight and be difficult to stack without some middle support.  |
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Post by leonski on Oct 7, 2016 14:54:56 GMT -5
Why not use something like a 1" (inch) square SCREEN as support shelves? It won't resonate OR reflect sound.
Also, the 'fluffy stuff' has little mechaincal strangth. The OC-type products have enough mechanical strength to minimize the need for shelf strength and numbers.
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Post by jcisbig on Oct 22, 2016 15:51:29 GMT -5
Alright, I have finished assembling and installing several DIY Acoustic Treatments in my room. I have full floor-to-ceiling bass traps in my front two corners. I have 2ft x 4ft panels on my sidewalls at the 1st reflection points of my tower speakers, and I have three 2ft x 4ft treatments on the Front wall of my room. Hopefully my attachments show up! I've included my REW measurements in its original file format as well as two screenshots of my in-room decay measurements from 5hz to 20khz. The Green represents an untreated room, and the Red represents all treatments in place. Let me know what you guys think! |
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Post by jcisbig on Oct 22, 2016 16:57:37 GMT -5
I've spent a few hours listening to music over the last couple days since adding the treatments to my room. It's hard for me to know for sure what differences I'm hearing because of not being able to quickly A/B the differences. I'm also not quite sure what to make of the measurements I took (see previous post). It definitely seems like I've improved the decay times pretty well, but I was also expecting some smoothing out of the overall frequency response. To me, it seems like the response is different, but not better, than the original measurements. Still quite a few peaks and nulls overall.
Anyway, onto some of what I THINK I'm hearing differently after adding treatments:
- The vocals seemed more locked into center, and sound more natural
- Soundstaging is better (as in a little more precise, more depth, and envelops me more to the point where sometimes things sound like they are directly to the side of me or behind me)
- By subwoofer seems to blend a little bit better into my system and is not as localizable as before
- I feel like I've needed to bump my sub up 1.5dB or so in order to get the same "punch" as before
- Overall, music is "easier" to listen to and not as "harsh" or "fatiguing"
- I feel like "my room" gets out of the way a little easier so that I can hear the recording environment more clearly
- When I do the "clap" test I can still hear some "flutter" after the original clap, although it does dissipate really quickly
In conclusion, I THINK that I'm hearing a noticeable improvement with treatments. Hopefully it's not a placebo-effect kind of thing! : )
If what I'm hearing is not pacebo, I'm pleased with what my DIY treatments have done for my room so far.
The next big thing I need to figure out is what size/type/design of treatment I should put on my back wall as it's currently bare. I've been told that the bass waves reflecting off the back wall are responsible for a lot of the cancellation of bass waves in my room. Maybe I should try and make 2 or 3 6" or 9" thick traps for the back wall to take care of those? I just don't want to overdamp my room...
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Post by saru on Oct 22, 2016 17:13:37 GMT -5
If you can put in corner bass traps in the rear to leave room for more broadband panels on the real wall, that may help with both the remaining clap flutter and the low-end absorption. May also want to consider a pair of 2x2 ceiling panels for your ceiling first reflection points.
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