|
|
Post by novisnick on Oct 6, 2016 11:23:49 GMT -5
"Words mean nothing, results are what matters!" Yes! I agree with you 100 percent, which is why I go to Home Depot for wire to connect my loudspeakers rather than places like Zu. Bill Good for you! Being happy is #1,,,,,,, just don't step in #2  |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Oct 6, 2016 11:28:10 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Oct 6, 2016 11:32:37 GMT -5
Nope, didn't miss it. Read every word. Munsters suck!!  |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Oct 6, 2016 11:36:38 GMT -5
Great picture, but I wish the Munstermobile was also shown......I loved that car.
Bill
|
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Oct 6, 2016 11:42:04 GMT -5
Great picture, but I wish the Munstermobile was also shown......I loved that car. Bill Ask and thou shall receive,,,,,,,,maybe  |
|
|
|
Post by Wideawake on Oct 6, 2016 11:47:16 GMT -5
What cables are you using to connect your router to the internet? Consider switching to high end cables because the dynamic range of that picture is not quite as good as it can be. Sorry, couldn't resist that. |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Oct 6, 2016 13:47:19 GMT -5
Great picture, but I wish the Munstermobile was also shown......I loved that car. Bill Ask and thou shall receive,,,,,,,,maybe Yeah! That's the one. I don't know about you, but when I was a kid well.........see the picnic basket in that picture?? give it to Grandpa, Herman and the rest and send them to lunch and leave me the blonde and the rumble seat thank you! Bill |
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Oct 6, 2016 14:05:43 GMT -5
Ask and thou shall receive,,,,,,,,maybe Yeah! That's the one. I don't know about you, but when I was a kid well.........see the picnic basket in that picture?? give it to Grandpa, Herman and the rest and send them to lunch and leave me the blonde and the rumble seat thank you! Bill Hey what's with the Nazi salute, anyway? |
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,259
|
Post by KeithL on Oct 6, 2016 16:05:32 GMT -5
My problem with this whole sort of thing is the line between subjective and objective.... and the implications.... especially when money is involved. Let me try a different example, and one totally unrelated to audio. Let's assume that I start with two identical glasses and a jug of distilled water. I put some of that water into each glass and have someone taste both. We can probably all agree that, if they claim to taste a difference, they're probably imagining it. Now, let's do that again, but this time I'm going to put a really tiny pinch of salt into one of the glasses. Odds are that, this time, at least some people will notice a difference. I've used a really tiny pinch so it's quite possible that, even though some people notice that something is different, they aren't exactly sure what. And, of the people who do notice, some will prefer the glass with the extra pinch of salt while others will prefer the other one. And, please note that none of us can say for sure that one is BETTER than the other.... After all, there's nothing wrong with salt, and some of us may quite reasonably prefer one or the other. However, what if I were to tell you that I'm charging $500 a gallon for the water with a pinch of salt.... Is that unreasonable or not? Do you think I'm taking advantage of you? People cheerfully pay thousands of dollars for a bottle of wine - which is just a particular mix of water and a few cents worth of chemicals. But most people would find it absurd if you were to try and charge them $500 for a bottle of vitamin water. This is my problem...... I wonder if people really hear those differences between wires.... but I'll admit that they might. However, I'm not especially convinced that what they're hearing is an improvement.... rather than just a tiny difference. (And, when the "technical explanation" offered doesn't fit especially well with established science, I find it even less convincing.) If I were unscrupulous, I could take ten different $5 wires, and make each sound a tiny bit different by adding $1 worth of parts. I wonder if I could then convince ten different people to give me $500 for each of those wires by convincing them that one particular wire is "the best one". I'll bet I could. (Please note that I'm not accusing anyone of doing that.... but it does make one wonder.) Ahhhh... but all cables have electrical characteristics, and so will interact at least to some degree with the equipment you connect them to..... This means that it's not at all surprising that you might hear a really tiny difference, even between quite similar ones. But not every slight difference is an improvement.... If the difference is really slight, how do you know that the $10 zip cord isn't the one that's actually better? Could it perhaps be because someone has convinced you that the more expensive one SHOULD sound better? I'm just saying.....  True, also we tend to bring our own biases to the table when "WE" know there has been a change in our system. Thats why I always employ the "Mrs" test. I dont say a word about anything and she has picked out almost if not every time Ive changed something in our system. I ask what she is talking about and she explains, sometimes in more detail then others. She isn't bashful about saying that it sounds better or worse. I love my Mrs. She has two great ears!,,,,,,,,,,,, and a wonderful husband,,,,,,he,,,,,he,,,,,he,,,,, |
|
|
|
Post by Soup on Oct 6, 2016 16:33:54 GMT -5
Got a great deal and they look cool to me. Just like some are addicted to BLUE Kool-Aid.
|
|
|
|
Post by lehighvalleyjeff on Oct 6, 2016 17:05:28 GMT -5
Taking price out of the equation, I've had different cables (power cords, rca, speaker, XLR and coax) from companies like audiotruth/audioquest, Monster, kimber, cardas, sonic horizons,etc) in my system for the last 20 years. Here is my take on it
Some cables I was able to immediately notice a difference on (not better or worse) but a tangible change in the sonics that I heard from the component in question. Some times this change was favorable and some times it was not (see Keith's salt water analogy). The ones that made changes that I preferred stayed in my system and the ones that either didn't change anything or negatively altered the sound i took out of my system.
Yes, in general none of the cables in question are worth what I paid for them. But to me, tweaking my system and finding what makes the sound more enjoyable for me is of great value.
If you want to put cheap cables in your system bc you can then enjoy doing it. But how dare anybody judge or make demeaning comments about me or anyone else who enjoys the special cables. Not everybody buys Audio accessories on value or price.
Some of us find great satisfaction in tweaking. Many times such tweaks do not yield changes in the sound but that makes it more exciting when we do find something that works.
The power cord on my XSP-1 cost more than the XSP-1 itself. I bought it a decade ago. Does that make me stupid? No. I'm grateful my ex-wife didn't throw it away bc I can still enjoy it. Does it make the XSP-1 sound twice as good? No but that wasn't the intention of me buying it. The XSP sounds different with that cord versus the stock cord. I find the sound preferable with the cord. Some may not.
The point is to each his own. But to make blanket statements condemning those who have expensive cables in their systems is ignorant. That is unless you have spent two decades and over $6,000 experimenting with all of the various boutique cables and can speak from personal experience.
Just my 3 cents
|
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Oct 6, 2016 17:13:25 GMT -5
OK, Nick - But she NEVER misses your guilty face! 😂
|
|
|
|
Post by Cogito on Oct 6, 2016 17:23:22 GMT -5
"Words mean nothing, results are what matters!" Yes! I agree with you 100 percent, which is why I go to Home Depot for wire to connect my loudspeakers rather than places like Zu. Bill I have a similar attitude. However, I'll pay a little extra for "pretty" or unique cables. Example: This 14 gauge cable sells for .15 a foot. Pretty basic and functions perfectly for it's intended task.  But this 14 gauge cable is far more interesting to me at .57 a foot. I KNOW it doesn't sound ANY better or different than the cheaper one above, but I think it's worth a few more dollars a run simply for it's aesthetics.  |
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Oct 6, 2016 17:37:12 GMT -5
OK, Nick - But she NEVER misses your guilty face! 😂 That's it!!! She doesn't have to be home when Nick is up to his nogoodnick stuff, surreptitiously installing new or modifying existing equipment. It's just like when you get home and your dog looks sheepish - you know he was up to no good.   |
|
|
|
Post by audiosyndrome on Oct 6, 2016 17:58:02 GMT -5
Pretty crappy test. The quality of the switching box? What amp? A $329 Denon receiver maybe? What was used for the source? Perhaps a $69 Blueray player from Costco? And so on and so forth. You get the idea. Was the quality of the system sufficient to hear a difference? And what difference? Timbre? Width of soundstage? Depth of soundstage? Dynamics? Again, so on and so forth. Be careful what you read; it's usually just someones opinion, not fact. IMHO. Russ |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2016 1:08:26 GMT -5
Carroll wire from Home Depot for 15.00 Zu Audio....... 450.00. Identical results. There are those of us out there who seem to be obsessed with tossing money 💰. Out the window. Bill I strongly disagree .......... for paying $15, for speaker wire that is. I usually spend less than $10 for bulk zip cord at Home Depot .......... you got screwed!  My wife can always immediately determine (hear) when I've upgraded my K-Mart bulk wire to Home Depot 16 gauge Supreme Speaker Wire/Zip Cord. |
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Oct 7, 2016 8:24:23 GMT -5
Carroll wire from Home Depot for 15.00 Zu Audio....... 450.00. Identical results. There are those of us out there who seem to be obsessed with tossing money 💰. Out the window. Bill I strongly disagree .......... for paying $15, for speaker wire that is. I usually spend less than $10 for bulk zip cord at Home Depot .......... you got screwed! My wife can always immediately determine (hear) when I've upgraded my K-Mart bulk wire to Home Depot 16 gauge Supreme Speaker Wire/Zip Cord. OH,,,,,,, yours too! Isnt it great!?!?!  |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Oct 7, 2016 9:16:43 GMT -5
"Pretty crappy test. "
It does not matter actually. The exercise drives the point beautifully that there is no sonic difference between a ten dollar wire and a ten THOUSAND dollar one.
Bill
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,259
|
Post by KeithL on Oct 7, 2016 10:10:37 GMT -5
I've got to take BOTH sides on this one..... But let me start with a fable..... Does everyone here remember one called "The Princess and the Pea"? I forget the lead-up, but the basic premise was that a prince needed to be able to figure out which of three girls was really the princess. The solution was to invite each girl to sleep on a luxurious bed (alone; no smarmy remarks)... The bed was piled high with several mattresses, but a tiny pea was placed under the bottom mattress. The real princess was the girl who tossed and turned all night because, being especially royal and discerning, even the lump caused by the tiny pea, way down at the bottom of the stack of mattresses, annoyed her so much she couldn't sleep. (Apparently being "high maintenance" was considered to be a virtue back in those days.) So, agreeing with one side of the discussion: If your other equipment isn't good enough, then its flaws may quite possibly make it impossible to hear subtle but real improvements. (Of course, you should still be able to hear major differences, even if they can't turn that sow's ear into a silk purse they should still be able to improve it at least a little). With the example given, I would agree that, if the system used wasn't very good, it might hide subtle differences between cables. However, if cables are as important as some people seem to think, then you would think that, even with a low end system, the coat hanger would produce some noticeable difference...... so, as a debunking of the claim that "cables are so important that they make a difference - even with low end equipment" it's pretty relevant. (But, as a "properly controlled test", I agree that it isn't up to par.) However, on the other side of it: In general, good equipment is designed to minimize the differences caused by other components - especially cables. Any engineer would tell you that a really well designed power supply will sound exactly the same with any power cord - as long as that power cord meets certain minimum electrical requirements (and, yes, heavy zip commercial cords meet them just fine). Therefore, if your equipment sounds different with different power cords, and there's nothing wrong with the cords you tried, then its power supply is flawed. (Now, nothing is perfect, and it's up to you whether you think it's OK to buy an expensive power cord to make up for a poorly designed power supply.) Likewise, most audio circuitry is designed to IGNORE minor differences in the electrical characteristics of interconnect cables, and being especially sensitive to those differences is widely accepted to be a DESIGN FLAW. (When we want something that's sensitive to minute differences, we use test equipment.) So, if your equipment is super-sensitive to interconnect cables, it isn't "discerning", it's just poorly designed; likewise, if a certain interconnect cable makes a major difference with a lot of equipment, then that cable is poorly designed. Speaker cables are a little bit more critical, especially with long runs, so some slight difference there is reasonable. However, again, "heavy duty zip cord" should meet them minimum requirement that equipment is designed for. (The "official design goal" is for everything to work together properly.) However, you should note that steel coat hanger wire is electrically MUCH poorer than even cheap zip cord, and so does provide a rather extreme demonstration of "not mattering". Another thing is how this all relates to human psychology..... People PREFER to think that they're "more discerning"; most people really don't like to admit that they don't hear a difference... especially if other people say they do. And this isn't only what we admit to other people, but what we admit to ourselves. This biases most of us to hear a difference, and, if we hear a difference, to assume the more expensive product is better. (Note that those of us who are convinced that it's all a scam are BIASED to NOT hear a difference.) However, for the most part, most of us really don't LIKE to admit that, to us, the $2000 bottle of wine doesn't really taste any better than the $20 bottle; and, perish the thought, nobody wants to admit that they like the $20 bottle better.... even if they do. I'm making a major separate point of this because it's what drives to say that "such and such a system" is "more revealing" instead of saying that "it's overly sensitive". Was the princess who couldn't sleep on the tiny pea really "more discerning, or was she just a high maintenance prima donna who's never going to be happy? And did the fact that she could feel that pea prove that she was better, or just that she was fussy, or even that someone needed to buy some new mattresses? Perhaps a better analogy: If you were to buy an expensive new mattress, and find that it was horribly uncomfortable because you felt every nail head and seam in the bed frame through it, would you say that "your bed was obviously poorly made and your new mattress was good enough to allow you to discern those subtle flaws" or would you say that "your bed frame was fine - and your new mattress just wasn't very good"? To me, a lot of this sounds like a thinly veiled attempt to sell you a thin mattress, and convince you that lack of padding is a good thing because it lets you "discern the subtle details of your bed frame". (Of course, the goal isn't specifically to sell you a thin mattress, but merely to sell you a mattress that feels "different", and charge you an awful lot for it.) I will also specifically note that at Emotiva we do NOT recommend fancy power cords or interconnects for our equipment. Our equipment is designed to sound as good as it can with any reasonable commercial power cable, or interconnect, or speaker cable - as long as they meet standard requirements (power cords and speaker cables must be heavy enough; interconnects should have reasonably low capacitance and inductance and reasonably good shielding; both should be well made and pleasant to handle). The various cables and interconnects we sell are properly designed, they feel nice to handle, and they look attractive..... but there's nothing magical about them (and no top secret science that NASA would love to get their hands on).  Pretty crappy test. The quality of the switching box? What amp? A $329 Denon receiver maybe? What was used for the source? Perhaps a $69 Blueray player from Costco? And so on and so forth. You get the idea. Was the quality of the system sufficient to hear a difference? And what difference? Timbre? Width of soundstage? Depth of soundstage? Dynamics? Again, so on and so forth. Be careful what you read; it's usually just someones opinion, not fact. IMHO. Russ |
|
|
|
Post by trinhsman on Oct 7, 2016 10:21:36 GMT -5
"Pretty crappy test. " It does not matter actually. The exercise drives the point beautifully that there is no sonic difference between a ten dollar wire and a ten THOUSAND dollar one. Bill This is why I use old coat hangers from my dry cleaners. Just twist them together and hook them up. The sound is amazing!!! I hope people know I am kidding. I fall into the quality cable group. I have heard the difference, and the wife, who doesn't give a crap about my system, has heard the difference. IMHO. PASS LABS X150 POWER AMP AUDIBLE ILLUSIONS MODULUS 3A PREAMP MUSIC HALL 9.1 TURNTABLE WITH ORTOFON 2M BLACK CARTRIDGE EMOTIVA ERC3 CD PLAYER TOTALLY MODDED SNELL E II SPEAKERS WITH AUDIO NOTE DRIVERS AND CUSTOM CABINETS, ALONG WITH CALL NEW SONICAPS IN THE CROSSOVERS, BUNDLED AND MATCHED TO ORIGINALS MORROW SP7 SPEAKER CABLES MORROW MA7 INTERCONNECTS MORROW PH7 PHONO CABLE |
|
