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Post by bcbigb on Oct 13, 2016 5:48:52 GMT -5
I love the DC-1 in all its ways everywhere that I've heard it, but I have yet to get one to challenge my trusty old Benchmark DAC-1 USB because, well, I'm concerned I'll like it enough to want to swap them out and right now that'd be a problem. The issue is that the DAC-1 has beefy 1/4" TRS jacks and, simply put, they've saved me from some otherwise catastrophic DAC/HP-Amp injuries that, try as I might, aren't always preventable.
In the bigger scheme of things, I honestly wish 1/4" was the simple, uncontested default in place of 3.5mm everywhere except space-constrained or non-hifi devices. It's easy to adapt down to a 3.5mm plug with minimal downside, but adapting from the skimpy 3.5mm jack up to a 1/4" just increases the torque (quite a bit given the length of the adapters) on the twiggy little 3.5mm jacks. For any serious home hifi or professional application (at which I think the DC-1 is squarely aimed) it mystifies me why 3.5mm is even briefly considered.
I just see 3.5mm as an accident waiting to happen even where it's best suited (mobile devices etc)... this is a little funny to me as I was recently decrying the loss of the 3.5mm jack on the iPhone 7 just a week or two ago as a pathetic move by Apple that was really not supported at all by their claimed justifications about space etc, but that's another issue and I've already riffed enough off-topic here at this point. :-\
Anyways, perhaps someone can either give me some great news that they'll eventually be swapped out in a future revision or follow-up product (DC-2?) or, to console my sad heart (haha... how am I doing on being dramatic?), perhaps they can explain to me why 3.5mm still exists on any non-mobile gear/devices at all, particularly Emotiva's otherwise extremely robust gear (Look at those remotes after all! They could be used to build the gantry for the next CC rocket launch!).
Thanks!
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 13, 2016 12:36:25 GMT -5
I agree that chassis based audio equipment should use 1/4" headphone jacks. I have headphones with both 1/4" and 3.5 mm plugs. Adding a 1/4 male to 3.5 female creates a strong, protected connection that is almost totally enclosed within the chassis; using a 3.5 male to 1/4 female creates a large, flimsy, connection that sticks way out and has a lot of leverage to possibly snap off the male connector (as you say an accident waiting to happen).
There was much discussion about this when the DC-1 was released, and Dan or Keith explained their logic in choosing 3.5; I didn't agree then and still don't, but I don't hold out much hope for change (nor lose sleep over it). That said I think it's good to let Emotiva know our preferences, they're more likely to make products that meet our needs.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 13, 2016 13:05:19 GMT -5
I'm afraid that personally I agree with you.... but the market has gone the other way. (Most headphones come with a 1/8" plug on them and an adapter included in the box.) The obvious answer - if there's space - is to include one of each. However, I absolutely agree that the one-piece 1/8" male to 1/4" female adapters are unwieldy and downright dangerous. You're much better off with the ones that are a six inch piece of cable with a 1/8" male on one end and a 1/4" female on the other. I agree that chassis based audio equipment should use 1/4" headphone jacks. I have headphones with both 1/4" and 3.5 mm plugs. Adding a 1/4 male to 3.5 female creates a strong, protected connection that is almost totally enclosed within the chassis; using a 3.5 male to 1/4 female creates a large, flimsy, connection that sticks way out and has a lot of leverage to possibly snap off the male connector (as you say an accident waiting to happen). There was much discussion about this when the DC-1 was released, and Dan or Keith explained their logic in choosing 3.5; I didn't agree then and still don't, but I don't hold out much hope for change (nor lose sleep over it). That said I think it's good to let Emotiva know our preferences, they're more likely to make products that meet our needs. |
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Post by geebo on Oct 13, 2016 13:17:46 GMT -5
I'm afraid that personally I agree with you.... but the market has gone the other way. (Most headphones come with a 1/8" plug on them and an adapter included in the box.) The obvious answer - if there's space - is to include one of each. However, I absolutely agree that the one-piece 1/8" male to 1/4" female adapters are unwieldy and downright dangerous. You're much better off with the ones that are a six inch piece of cable with a 1/8" male on one end and a 1/4" female on the other. I agree that chassis based audio equipment should use 1/4" headphone jacks. I have headphones with both 1/4" and 3.5 mm plugs. Adding a 1/4 male to 3.5 female creates a strong, protected connection that is almost totally enclosed within the chassis; using a 3.5 male to 1/4 female creates a large, flimsy, connection that sticks way out and has a lot of leverage to possibly snap off the male connector (as you say an accident waiting to happen). There was much discussion about this when the DC-1 was released, and Dan or Keith explained their logic in choosing 3.5; I didn't agree then and still don't, but I don't hold out much hope for change (nor lose sleep over it). That said I think it's good to let Emotiva know our preferences, they're more likely to make products that meet our needs. I made a short cable (actually 6 feet long) with a 1/4" jack on one end and a right angle 3.5mm plug on the other. It allows me to close the door on my rack while the cans are plugged in and there is little chance of bumping it.  |
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Post by bcbigb on Oct 14, 2016 4:22:28 GMT -5
Thank you Keith and Geebo. I did forget about the miracle of right-angles :-). I'm still firmly for 1/4" jacks (Jack Lives Matter!), but your suggestion will help alleviate the issue and at least give me a method to deal with other equipment that falls into this camp and I always appreciate a good suggestion that helps me be more flexible and capable. So! I'd still like to make my case just a little bit stronger, possibly to persuade you that the tides have, awesomely, shifted in your and my favor :-). My first assumption is similar to what I said above in that the DC-1, at $500 and not built for pockets, is intended for people willing to drop at least $700-1000+ on a system, be it just a set of headphones and a DAC/PRE like this, or more. Simply put, no one's buying cheap cans with a piece of gear like this. Second, any headphones remotely worth their salt have, as you said, a 1/4" attachment, and most I've seen have either 1/4" replacement cables (often better built too), like Sennheiser's entire lineup. Lastly, I'm also assuming the headphone amp/portion of the unit will be scrutinized much more by headphone-centric users ("fronties" as I'm going to call them now) than by folks wanting to drive speakers ("backies" because why not) and, as such, I'm betting that if it passes for headphone users it'll easily satisfy other users who use their headphones periodically on an as-needed basis (I do it to be quiet at night) or simply as a secondary function. When you said the market was going the other way (and perhaps it was at that point), I decided to look at what was hot on Head-Fi for desktop headphones amplifiers to see if I was out of touch with the ok-but-not-rich audio devotee crowd that I at least think I'm a part of :-). A quick run-through shows that all but possibly 1 or 2 of the top 30 in that category all come with 1/4" jacks, and skipping through the rest of the >4-star units shows that probably 85+% seem to agree on that being the de facto standard for people in that crowd. Again, many of these are units between $100-300, and even more are <$500, so I don't think I'm seeing any sign, if my assumptions are right, that the market as it now stands is against us. (Head-Fi link below for those who want to check my rough read of the land) Just to be clear: I'm not saying any of this to be combative, negative or otherwise cut you guys down for your decision. I'll have to see if I can find the thread where you guys went into your thoughts so I can catch up on the discussion. Also, I very much appreciate that it's easy for anyone to walk in after the fact and be a critic, and I have no idea what your information was when you made that decision (part of why my assumptions were stated above). Lastly, I believe the DC-1 was released at least 2, maybe 3(?) years ago so things may have changed since then. This is genuinely just a statement that I believe it would be a large positive at this point, and one that would line up with your stated desire to keep up with the direction of the market, if you're targeting who I think you're targeting. Lastly, there's no passive-aggressive "I *would* buy it if you would only do what I want" tone intended here. I already have a DC-1 scheduled into my purchase plans after a large swath of acoustic treatment. This is just my attempt to do some of the legwork/research for when you next have to divine the desires of the market to make that age-old 1/4" decision. Jesus... I can't believe I wrote that much about this... but it's late and I really get in the zone when I think I've found something good! I love how the post button says "Post Quick Reply"... this is hardly one of those :-). 'Night! --> Head-Fi link: www.head-fi.org/products/category/desktop-amps --> Amazon search for anyone viewing this who wants to follow up on Geebo/Kevin's suggested workaround: www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=3.5+to+1%2F4%22+angle+adapter&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3A3.5+to+1%2F4%22+angle+adapter |
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Post by chaosrv on Oct 14, 2016 12:08:46 GMT -5
I'm all for 1/4" jacks or one of each as well. One of each would be a good compromise too.
The 6" adapter cable is a great idea as a workaround. I'd go a step further and use a pice of electrical tape to secure it to the chassis.
On a semi-related note why is it that the larger jack is typically referred to in Imperial units (1/4") while the smaller is typically referred to in Metric? (3.5mm)
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Post by garbulky on Oct 14, 2016 12:39:37 GMT -5
You may be interested to know some things.
1. The headphone output on the DC-1 is surprisingly good. No it's not a Schiit Jotunheim good obviously, but it's still quite good. It also has some decent power for high impedance cans putting out a lot more than the XDA-2 did.
2. The headphone amps use a separate analog resister volume control from the main volume control..
3. There are two separate (and equally powerful) headphone amps on the DC-1 one for each output. So it's not a headphone jack split into two. There are actually two amp circuits here.
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Post by monkumonku on Oct 14, 2016 12:52:04 GMT -5
You may be interested to know some things. 1. The headphone output on the DC-1 is surprisingly good. No it's not a Schiit Jotunheim good obviously, but it's still quite good. It also has some decent power for high impedance cans putting out a lot more than the XDA-2 did. 2. The headphone amps use a separate analog resister volume control from the main volume control.. 3. There are two separate (and equally powerful) headphone amps on the DC-1 one for each output. So it's not a headphone jack split into two. There are actually two amp circuits here. Regarding #1 in your comment above, how do you "obviously" know that the DC-1 is not as good as the Schiit Jotunheim? |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 14, 2016 16:05:54 GMT -5
You may be interested to know some things. 1. The headphone output on the DC-1 is surprisingly good. No it's not a Schiit Jotunheim good obviously, but it's still quite good. It also has some decent power for high impedance cans putting out a lot more than the XDA-2 did. 2. The headphone amps use a separate analog resister volume control from the main volume control.. 3. There are two separate (and equally powerful) headphone amps on the DC-1 one for each output. So it's not a headphone jack split into two. There are actually two amp circuits here. Regarding #1 in your comment above, how do you "obviously" know that the DC-1 is not as good as the Schiit Jotunheim? Because of the watts and it's not fully balanced. The Jotunheim has a hell of a lot of power while the DC-1 struggled a little bit with the HD600's. |
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Post by bcbigb on Oct 14, 2016 16:14:36 GMT -5
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Post by monkumonku on Oct 14, 2016 16:26:30 GMT -5
Regarding #1 in your comment above, how do you "obviously" know that the DC-1 is not as good as the Schiit Jotunheim? Because of the watts and it's not fully balanced. The Jotunheim has a hell of a lot of power while the DC-1 struggled a little bit with the HD600's. So we should go by specs, then?  Some amps are not met to drive high impedance headphones but that doesn't make them inferior to others, when used with headphones that match the output. I'm not saying the DC-1 is better, but just raising the question as to what makes the Schiit "obviously" better than the DC-1. |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 14, 2016 17:06:59 GMT -5
Because of the watts and it's not fully balanced. The Jotunheim has a hell of a lot of power while the DC-1 struggled a little bit with the HD600's. So we should go by specs, then? Some amps are not met to drive high impedance headphones but that doesn't make them inferior to others, when used with headphones that match the output. I'm not saying the DC-1 is better, but just raising the question as to what makes the Schiit "obviously" better than the DC-1. Well in this case...yes. The Jotunheim is the more capable headphone amp. I'm not even hesitating on it. Also never heard it. So take it for what it's worth.  |
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Post by geebo on Oct 14, 2016 17:47:57 GMT -5
So we should go by specs, then? Some amps are not met to drive high impedance headphones but that doesn't make them inferior to others, when used with headphones that match the output. I'm not saying the DC-1 is better, but just raising the question as to what makes the Schiit "obviously" better than the DC-1. Well in this case...yes. The Jotunheim is the more capable headphone amp. I'm not even hesitating on it. Also never heard it. So take it for what it's worth. What it's worth then would only be what is written on paper... |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 14, 2016 19:00:14 GMT -5
Well in this case...yes. The Jotunheim is the more capable headphone amp. I'm not even hesitating on it. Also never heard it. So take it for what it's worth. What it's worth then would only be what is written on paper... Not written on paper! |
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Post by geebo on Oct 14, 2016 19:27:32 GMT -5
What it's worth then would only be what is written on paper... Not written on paper! Are the specs written in stone then? Something else? |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Oct 14, 2016 20:29:29 GMT -5
Are the specs written in stone then? Something else? It's obviously better because marketing said it's better. Who needs to listen to what it actually sounds like.  |
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Post by bcbigb on Oct 15, 2016 0:49:25 GMT -5
I'm all for 1/4" jacks or one of each as well. One of each would be a good compromise too. The 6" adapter cable is a great idea as a workaround. I'd go a step further and use a pice of electrical tape to secure it to the chassis. I'd suggest gaffer's tape. Electrical tape is a type of mastic, in that it bonds to itself and eventually gloms together to form a single body (to a lesser degree than actual mastic tape, but still). This is why you have to cut it off eventually to remove it, as it effectively isn't really a single strip any longer. More importantly, gaffer's tape is the only type of common tape that I know of that is designed specifically not to leave any residue (it could after a long time, but not that I've seen). If you've ever seen electrical tape after a few months or years... well... the adhesive turns to slimy glue even when it's just a single strip not touching itself. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 15, 2016 2:36:50 GMT -5
... I'll have to see if I can find the thread where you guys went into your thoughts so I can catch up on the discussion. Here's one of the first, almost three years old, there may be others. emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/582645/thread |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 15, 2016 2:45:44 GMT -5
Are the specs written in stone then? Something else? I got to tell you how these computer screens work sometime!  But seriously....do you need to hear it in this case? Is this an exercise in logic or an exercise in reality? What if I told you about my transistor radio and told you for sure its headphone jack was just as good as the Schiit Jotunheim. Would you believe it?  |
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Post by geebo on Oct 15, 2016 8:43:36 GMT -5
Are the specs written in stone then? Something else? I got to tell you how these computer screens work sometime! But seriously....do you need to hear it in this case? Is this an exercise in logic or an exercise in reality? What if I told you about my transistor radio and told you for sure its headphone jack was just as good as the Schiit Jotunheim. Would you believe it?  C'mon, now. The DC-1 is hardly a transistor radio. |
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