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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 14, 2016 10:27:26 GMT -5
Oops - you're right, geebo - outputs include optical, coaxial, and HDMI only. So at this point, this ALL becomes academic. I'm not buying a $300 converter box to test equipment. The ONLY other option I see is to temporarily move my server computer (with outboard HDD) into the living room & hook up its USB output directly to the USB input of the Cary. Or (the inevitable) Plan C... Let the music signal remain PCM until it hits the Cary & THEN let the Cary convert to DSD - upsample - and then convert to analog. This has the "mild-slope-converter-filter" advantage without having to mess with DSD streams directly. If there's anything valid to the claims that the milder low-pass slope filter improves the sound, then the advantage should be audible whether or not the signal started as PCM or DSD (ignoring, for the moment, any higher frequency sampling that the DSD file might bring to the party). And in fact, there MIGHT be something to the idea that a milder slope improves sound - the Schiit Gungnir multi-bit sure is beginning to sound nice... Will the Cary's DSD conversion with mild-slope-filter be as good? I'm about to find out... |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 14, 2016 10:30:07 GMT -5
This is correct. HDMI only output - that's the case for most SACD players. Schiit did do a DSD player but it is discontinued and they've hiinted they weren't too pleased with it too  |
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Post by geebo on Oct 14, 2016 10:33:13 GMT -5
This is correct. HDMI only output - that's the case for most SACD players. Schiit did do a DSD player but it is discontinued and they've hiinted they weren't too pleased with it too That was the Loki. It could accept DSD Over PCM so you had to have a player that could output DoP. The Loki would only output analog. |
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Post by jmilton on Oct 14, 2016 10:39:33 GMT -5
McGowan's COPPER e-zine has a lot of info on DSD. As you may know, he likes it a lot. Here is a brief except of his impressions...
"Richard Murison, co-founder of Bit Perfect, writes, in the first issue of Copper, that the world listens to DSD. Quite a few of you have read that statement and asked me to explain what he means. After all, aren’t CDs PCM based? And aren’t the most popular high resolution formats, like 192/24 PCM based? Indeed, they are, so what’s all this talk of DSD? Here’s Richard’s statement from page 16 of Copper.
The second thing you’re going to hear a lot about is DSD, which may both surprise and disappoint you. After all, isn’t DSD that odd-ball audio format promoted enthusiastically by super-serious audiophiles? It requires enormous file sizes and special hardware and software to play it back. It is seriously fringe stuff. So why do you need to be concerned with it? Well, the fact is that the principles which underpin DSD are hard at work in almost every digital audio device you own, from the cheapest DAC chipsets built into your mobile phone, to the most expensive stand-alone audio DACs. Even the ADCs which convert the recording studio’s microphone feeds to digital audio numbers do so based on the principles that underly DSD. So, at some point, if you want to understand Digital Audio, you’re going to have to understand DSD.
I certainly have no intention of stealing any of Richard’s thunder, and he’ll explain his thoughts in depth through his upcoming articles, but I figured a brief explanation of what he’s referring to when he says “the principles which underpin DSD are hard at work in almost every digital audio device you own” is a valuable preamble to his column.
All modern DACs and ADCs (Analog to Digital Converter, the opposite of a DAC) are Sigma Delta based converters. PCM, all 32 bits of it, is first converted to a format that’s close to 1-bit DSD and all subsequent processing inside your DAC, from the lowest cost Audioquest Dragonfly to the over $100,000 whacko daco, is no longer a many-bit PCM process. And this has been true for many, many years.
Fact is, when 24 bit DACs started appearing in the marketplace, chip designers were forced to move from straightforward PCM ladder-DACs to DSD-like Sigma Delta converters. Why? Because resolving 24 to 32 bit accuracy is next to impossible with part tolerances that have to be accurate beyond the abilities of manufacturers to produce.
So, the next time someone tells you they only listen to PCM and haven’t really played around with DSD, you can smile knowing they know not what they speak of." -McGowan
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Post by drtrey3 on Oct 14, 2016 13:18:29 GMT -5
I like the sound of my SACDs. I also like the sound of my DVD-audios and my Blu-Ray audio discs and files. I understand that DSD is a *bleep* to record with due to difficulty editing, which is central to most modern pop music. I can even get on board with it sounding a little more analog. But the lack of Sony consumer support makes it a bear to work with at times.
Trey
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Post by yves on Oct 14, 2016 13:21:29 GMT -5
wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD#DSD_Over_DLNAyabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=107215I think the story here ends with the Oppo. Build your own HTPC that will be able to use asynchronous USB 2.0 to play DSD files on your separate DAC that supports native DSD playback, i.e. by letting the HTPC access your music server or NAS directly via your home network (ethernet connection), as doing this will, in addition to the lack of native DSD connectivity via DLNA, solve so many other problems related directly to using an Oppo Blu-ray player for music playback. What other problems? It has an archaic UI for browsing through a music library, it doesn't support all known filetypes/formats without adding some kind of transcoding/conversion to the chain, and gapless playback support still isn't always perfect. foobar2000, which is completely FREE, does a MUCH better job in every way. |
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Post by yves on Oct 14, 2016 13:43:10 GMT -5
Thanks - Interesting... So here's my next question - Assuming I can send DSD over DLNA (and JRiver says I can), will the Oppo receive the stream via Ethernet DLNA & output the same on its USB output without converting the signal? In other words, I don't need the Oppo to convert the incoming signal bits at all - just transfer the stream (bits-intact) to a different output. If I can get the DSD stream out of the Oppo's USB port, then the Cary will accept the incoming USB-DSD stream - automatically up-convert it to 8x its original frequency, and then convert to analog without PCM's brick-wall filters. Despite claims to the contrary, a less steep low-pass filter should (theoretically) have less ringing. If fact, if I read Schiit's literature correctly, that's basically what they're doing with their "multi-bit" DACs - Converting the incoming PCM to a higher frequency bit-by-bit stream & then using milder filters. Of course, I may have completely misunderstood their explanations... Mr. Keith Levkoff, might I request your insight on this thread? Thanks - Boomzilla PS: I do see that the Sonore Sonicorbiter can convert incoming Ethernet DLNA to USB (and for all flavors of DSD - DoP, DSD, & "native DSD" (?) From what I gather (from the 2nd link I gave you) the answer is no, the Oppo can't send the DSD stream to its USB output unaltered, which is precisely what I meant when I said the story ends with the Oppo. As for "multibit" and "converting the incoming PCM to a higher frequency bit-by-bit stream & then using milder filters", practically every modern DAC, including Sigma Delta DAC, is multibit, and does exactly what you describe. |
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Post by yves on Oct 14, 2016 13:54:31 GMT -5
let the Cary convert to DSD Conversion from PCM to DSD is a lossy process. I have used both Korg AudioGate 4 and Weiss Saracon 1.61.27 for this purpose, the degradation that occurs is fairly noticeable. |
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Post by geebo on Oct 14, 2016 13:54:31 GMT -5
It has an archaic UI for browsing through a music library, it doesn't support all known filetypes/formats without adding some kind of transcoding/conversion to the chain, and gapless playback support still isn't always perfect. foobar2000, which is completely FREE, does a MUCH better job in every way. No problems with gapless here. Have you gotten the latest firmware installed? The UI isn't the best but it's not bad if you lay things out on the hard drive in a logical manner. Which filetypes are transcoded/converted? |
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Post by yves on Oct 14, 2016 14:11:11 GMT -5
McGowan's COPPER e-zine has a lot of info on DSD. As you may know, he likes it a lot. Here is a brief except of his impressions... "Richard Murison, co-founder of Bit Perfect, writes, in the first issue of Copper, that the world listens to DSD. Quite a few of you have read that statement and asked me to explain what he means. After all, aren’t CDs PCM based? And aren’t the most popular high resolution formats, like 192/24 PCM based? Indeed, they are, so what’s all this talk of DSD? Here’s Richard’s statement from page 16 of Copper. The second thing you’re going to hear a lot about is DSD, which may both surprise and disappoint you. After all, isn’t DSD that odd-ball audio format promoted enthusiastically by super-serious audiophiles? It requires enormous file sizes and special hardware and software to play it back. It is seriously fringe stuff. So why do you need to be concerned with it? Well, the fact is that the principles which underpin DSD are hard at work in almost every digital audio device you own, from the cheapest DAC chipsets built into your mobile phone, to the most expensive stand-alone audio DACs. Even the ADCs which convert the recording studio’s microphone feeds to digital audio numbers do so based on the principles that underly DSD. So, at some point, if you want to understand Digital Audio, you’re going to have to understand DSD. I certainly have no intention of stealing any of Richard’s thunder, and he’ll explain his thoughts in depth through his upcoming articles, but I figured a brief explanation of what he’s referring to when he says “the principles which underpin DSD are hard at work in almost every digital audio device you own” is a valuable preamble to his column. All modern DACs and ADCs (Analog to Digital Converter, the opposite of a DAC) are Sigma Delta based converters. PCM, all 32 bits of it, is first converted to a format that’s close to 1-bit DSD and all subsequent processing inside your DAC, from the lowest cost Audioquest Dragonfly to the over $100,000 whacko daco, is no longer a many-bit PCM process. And this has been true for many, many years. Fact is, when 24 bit DACs started appearing in the marketplace, chip designers were forced to move from straightforward PCM ladder-DACs to DSD-like Sigma Delta converters. Why? Because resolving 24 to 32 bit accuracy is next to impossible with part tolerances that have to be accurate beyond the abilities of manufacturers to produce. So, the next time someone tells you they only listen to PCM and haven’t really played around with DSD, you can smile knowing they know not what they speak of." -McGowan None of the digital audio devices I own (and I own about a dozen or so) are using the main principle that underpins DSD, which is the fact that it [DSD] uses a 1-bit quantizer (as opposed to using a multibit, or multi-level one). Like I said up thread, almost no modern DAC still uses a 1-bit quantizer due to a major fundamental flaw inherent of 1-bit quantizers; this is the reason why the vast majority of modern Sigma Delta DACs are, as a matter of VERY extremely true fact, multi-level (i.e., "multibit"). |
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Post by goodfellas27 on Oct 14, 2016 14:30:56 GMT -5
You could send pure DSD files from a NAS using DLNA on the Oppo 105. We do it all the time!
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Post by yves on Oct 14, 2016 14:47:12 GMT -5
It has an archaic UI for browsing through a music library, it doesn't support all known filetypes/formats without adding some kind of transcoding/conversion to the chain, and gapless playback support still isn't always perfect. foobar2000, which is completely FREE, does a MUCH better job in every way. No problems with gapless here. Have you gotten the latest firmware installed? The UI isn't the best but it's not bad if you lay things out on the hard drive in a logical manner. Which filetypes are transcoded/converted? To get the gist of what I am talking about, just gloss over the last page in the discussion thread linked below. www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/1466929-oppo-bdp-103-105-cue-files-gapless-playback-support-8.html |
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Post by yves on Oct 14, 2016 14:56:36 GMT -5
You could send pure DSD files from a NAS using DLNA on the Oppo 105. We do it all the time! Yes. The question wasn't if Oppo can receive DSD data via DLNA streaming and play it natively, but rather, can Oppo transfer said data, without altering the bits of said data that is, into a separate DAC/receiver/prepro/device; the answer is "no way" because Oppo ain't a NAS or HTPC. |
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Post by geebo on Oct 14, 2016 15:06:25 GMT -5
On my connected hard drive gapless has been working perfectly. Haven't tried it with .dsf files though. They are a very small part of what is on my hard drive and none of the DSD albums I have were mastered that way. I only use gapless if the original recording was gapless. |
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Post by yves on Oct 14, 2016 15:47:47 GMT -5
On my connected hard drive gapless has been working perfectly. Haven't tried it with .dsf files though. They are a very small part of what is on my hard drive and none of the DSD albums I have were mastered that way. I only use gapless if the original recording was gapless. AFAIK the problems with gaplessness start happening with DLNA. An external USB harddrive is not exactly the same thing as a whole music server or NAS, but anyway... I am using an affordable laptop in conjunction with a pair of cheap, powered USB 3.0 hubs to be able to play from my large collection of external harddrives almost every type of media file known to mankind, and doing so without running into (IMO kind of ridiculous) playback quality restrictions or limited support. |
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Post by Bonzo on Oct 14, 2016 16:06:13 GMT -5
This is correct. HDMI only output - that's the case for most SACD players. Schiit did do a DSD player but it is discontinued and they've hiinted they weren't too pleased with it too Not that it matters at all to this discussion, but light years ago (you know, like 10 years ago  ), some companies had proprietary methods of doing this. For example, my Denon Universal player passes SACD DSD via Denon Link 3, both 2 channel and surround. The catch is you need a Denon Receiver or Pre-amp/Processor with the same Denon Link 3 to decode it. Denon Link is basically a Cat 5 cable. If memory serves, I don't think it was ever capable of doing DVD-Audio, but I could be wrong. |
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Post by geebo on Oct 14, 2016 16:15:28 GMT -5
On my connected hard drive gapless has been working perfectly. Haven't tried it with .dsf files though. They are a very small part of what is on my hard drive and none of the DSD albums I have were mastered that way. I only use gapless if the original recording was gapless. AFAIK the problems with gaplessness start happening with DLNA. An external USB harddrive is not exactly the same thing as a whole music server or NAS, but anyway... I am using an affordable laptop in conjunction with a pair of cheap, powered USB 3.0 hubs to be able to play from my large collection of external harddrives almost every type of media file known to mankind, and doing so without running into (IMO kind of ridiculous) playback quality restrictions or limited support. I have an 8TB unit connected to the Oppo and also use a WD NAS to stream using a laptop and jRiver with the Oppo as a renderer. No gapless issues with Flacs which is the way all my files are stored with the exception of a few DSD albums and about 50 BD concerts which are on the attached external drive. Having all that available with with the touch of a button is very convenient and something anyone can operate. Don't know of any playback quality restrictions with the attached drive. Everything sounds and looks the same as if the disc were in the drive. |
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Post by yves on Oct 14, 2016 17:01:29 GMT -5
AFAIK the problems with gaplessness start happening with DLNA. An external USB harddrive is not exactly the same thing as a whole music server or NAS, but anyway... I am using an affordable laptop in conjunction with a pair of cheap, powered USB 3.0 hubs to be able to play from my large collection of external harddrives almost every type of media file known to mankind, and doing so without running into (IMO kind of ridiculous) playback quality restrictions or limited support. I have an 8TB unit connected to the Oppo and also use a WD NAS to stream using a laptop and jRiver with the Oppo as a renderer. No gapless issues with Flacs which is the way all my files are stored with the exception of a few DSD albums and about 50 BD concerts which are on the attached external drive. Having all that available with with the touch of a button is very convenient and something anyone can operate. Don't know of any playback quality restrictions with the attached drive. Everything sounds and looks the same as if the disc were in the drive. Are you saying that those people in that AVSF thread I linked were essentially being clueless, or that the issues have all been fixed in recent (~1 year old or newer) firmware updates? |
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Post by geebo on Oct 14, 2016 17:03:48 GMT -5
I have an 8TB unit connected to the Oppo and also use a WD NAS to stream using a laptop and jRiver with the Oppo as a renderer. No gapless issues with Flacs which is the way all my files are stored with the exception of a few DSD albums and about 50 BD concerts which are on the attached external drive. Having all that available with with the touch of a button is very convenient and something anyone can operate. Don't know of any playback quality restrictions with the attached drive. Everything sounds and looks the same as if the disc were in the drive. Are you saying that those people in that AVSF thread I linked were essentially being clueless, or that the issues have all been fixed in recent (~1 year old or newer) firmware updates? Don't know. All I can relay is my experience. Maybe if I read that thread earlier then gapless wouldn't be working for me.  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 14, 2016 17:18:56 GMT -5
Regardless of method, the Cary has a fantastically convenient feature - One can select up-sampling frequency, DSD conversion / oversampling, etc. from the remote while the music is playing. Want to see how one sounds against the other? Swap 'em on the fly! What matters isn't necessarily what technology is being used, but what comes out the speakers. So far, I like the high frequency DSD the best (being unconverted from the TOSLINK 44.1 PCM stream). But I haven't given them all a fair shake yet - and there's more than a dozen options to choose from.
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), some companies had proprietary methods of doing this. For example, my Denon Universal player passes SACD DSD via Denon Link 3, both 2 channel and surround. The catch is you need a Denon Receiver or Pre-amp/Processor with the same Denon Link 3 to decode it. Denon Link is basically a Cat 5 cable. If memory serves, I don't think it was ever capable of doing DVD-Audio, but I could be wrong.
