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Post by monkumonku on Jan 10, 2017 13:56:28 GMT -5
Intentional for tube amp protection? No, I don't know why the voltage decrease is done. I also don't remember where I read it but it said that a voltage drop is common with power conditioners just because of the way they are made. |
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Post by benbvan on Jan 10, 2017 14:10:13 GMT -5
Thank you for the response.
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Post by dwaleke on Jan 10, 2017 14:33:54 GMT -5
In most cases you want your amplifier connected directly to the wall outlet.
No reason to put anything in between.
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Post by benbvan on Jan 10, 2017 14:38:12 GMT -5
I've read that, I don't understand why you WOULDN'T want a line conditioner inbetween, or some other form of protection.. why would Emo even sell a product they don't recommend for use with their amps?
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 10, 2017 14:46:14 GMT -5
Intentional for tube amp protection? No, I don't know why the voltage decrease is done. I also don't remember where I read it but it said that a voltage drop is common with power conditioners just because of the way they are made. Power conditioners do exactly what their name suggests, condition the power. They smooth out the peaks and troughs, inevitably that means taking the tops of the peaks, both positive and negative. Keeping in mind that we are talking AC (alternating current) so it swings from -110 to + 110 at 60 Hz (that's 60 times per second). Using a volt or so off the peaks to smooth the power seems likely. I'm sure keith can confirm but I'd be surprised if the Gen 3 SMPS had any issues with power until it drops noticeably below 110 volts. Unless I'm reading it wrong, that doesn't seem to be an issue in your case. Cheers Gary |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Jan 10, 2017 15:03:19 GMT -5
Agreed..... Any power filter is going to cause some slight voltage drop at high current draw.... and it's not a problem as long as the drop is less than a few volts. Line voltage in various areas of the USA alone ranges from around 110 VAC to 128 VAC - and all normal equipment is designed to work just fine over that range. The problems occur with some power conditioners that, because of poor construction or design, cause a LOT of voltage drop. (Some line filters use really thin wire in their filter inductors, and some fancy "power regenerators" actually run out of current capacity and experience "dropouts" if loaded too heavily.) And, no, the power supply in the XPA Gen3 isn't going to have any problem with the drop caused by a CMX. If you see below 110 VAC, when measured at the input to your equipment, then you should be concerned. Otherwise, don't worry about it. No, I don't know why the voltage decrease is done. I also don't remember where I read it but it said that a voltage drop is common with power conditioners just because of the way they are made. Power conditioners do exactly what their name suggests, condition the power. They smooth out the peaks and troughs, inevitably that means taking the tops of the peaks, both positive and negative. Keeping in mind that we are talking AC (alternating current) so it swings from -110 to + 110 at 60 Hz (that's 60 times per second). Using a volt or so off the peaks to smooth the power seems likely. I'm sure keith can confirm but I'd be surprised if the Gen 3 SMPS had any issues with power until it drops noticeably below 110 volts. Unless I'm reading it wrong, that doesn't seem to be an issue in your case. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 10, 2017 15:06:44 GMT -5
I've read that, I don't understand why you WOULDN'T want a line conditioner inbetween, or some other form of protection.. why would Emo even sell a product they don't recommend for use with their amps? Power conditioners have a power draw limit which depends on their rating. In simple terms they will prevent any power draw over that limit, which can restrict the peak dynamics in a power amplifier. If, for example, we have an action scene in a movie that uses the sub woofer extensively plus the other speakers it is possible for an average listening volume of 95 db to jump to 125 db. Since every 3 db of volume increase requires double the amplification power, then it is possible for the power conditioner to stop the power amp from getting enough power to reach 125 db. So we lose the effect that the movie director and sound mixer/engineer intended us to hear. The fact is Emotiva don't know what we are going to plug into their power conditioner, they provide a rating and it's reasonable for them to expect us to respect that rating. If I plug, say, 5000 watts of maximum power draw into a 3000 watt power conditioner then that's my fault not Emotiva's. I think I mentioned it in an earlier post, there are maximum power draw wattages on the back of Emotiva gear, simply add them up and compare that with the power conditioner rating. Cheers Gary |
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Post by benbvan on Jan 10, 2017 15:49:21 GMT -5
Excellent, thank you both. The lowest voltage I saw was 111. I intend to run a new AC line just for the XPA and a sub. The receiver and other equipment will stay on the old circuit.
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Post by leonski on Jan 10, 2017 16:43:36 GMT -5
No, I don't know why the voltage decrease is done. I also don't remember where I read it but it said that a voltage drop is common with power conditioners just because of the way they are made. Power conditioners do exactly what their name suggests, condition the power. They smooth out the peaks and troughs, inevitably that means taking the tops of the peaks, both positive and negative. Keeping in mind that we are talking AC (alternating current) so it swings from -110 to + 110 at 60 Hz (that's 60 times per second). Using a volt or so off the peaks to smooth the power seems likely. I'm sure keith can confirm but I'd be surprised if the Gen 3 SMPS had any issues with power until it drops noticeably below 110 volts. Unless I'm reading it wrong, that doesn't seem to be an issue in your case. Cheers Gary What? a power conditioner is meant to remove NOISE from the line. Not 'smooth out peaks and troughs'. Whatever that means. Noise can be anything from the hash from a plasma TV or even some lesser-shielded 'D' amps to the noise from the Refrigerator starting. My take on Power Amps and Power Conditioners is that they current limit or restrict power to the amp during peaks. With the exception of my CARVER CUBE, (M400t) the 3 or 4 amps I've tried even on the High Current outlets of my Panamax had the life sucked out of 'em. These were both Linear and SMPS products. The Cube? Some kind of tracking PS. The Cube would also dim the house lights in time to the music when redlined into my MG-1 panels. OTHER power conditioner users report the same result with a few exceptions. One gentleman here on the forums reports his BELKIN has no such problems. The interior photographs show a Well-Made piece with plenty of high-gauge wire to the outlets in 6 separate feeds. Nice and was too expensive to sell. Too bad, since it appears to be a very good piece but people are hung-up on the 200$ level from Monster, mostly. Even the small amount of resistance of a 40 watt Fluorescent Tube is sufficient to cause a couple 'tenths' of a volt drop. It went from 119.5/6 to 119.7/8 when off. This is off a power strip with 6 feet of #14 to the wall plug. Cheap outlet strip with minimal protection (MOV) and NO 'conditioning'. Maybe I'll drag the Kill-A-Watt over to the stereo and take a few measurements. And Yes, in the last case I'll agree 100% with Gary. I don't see any problems with the G3 PS until the power line gets sagged pretty low. Certainly below 110 would be an alarm point for me, but than again, I start shutting stuff off at my house Below about 115, due to a history with California Power Delivery. This ONLY happens in the Summer when every Air Conditioner in the state is going full blast and its 4pm and still blazing hot. I would be curious to know the relationship between a regulated PS, like the G3 and DYNAMIC power. Also, the relationship in a conventional, Linear PS between stored capacitance and Transformer size. It would seem you could use a SMALLER transformer and higher stored capacitance to give peak power and maybe suffer longer recharge times. As long as the stored voltage was the same across different designs. If it made no difference in the amps ability to drive some of the wackier loads ('Stats, in particular) than I wouldn't care, but if it DID make a difference, it might be worth a few $$ for a more robust amp. |
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Post by benbvan on Jan 10, 2017 17:40:35 GMT -5
Just doing the math, when checking all equipment on the line (receiver, amp, sub, cable box, PlayStation, an led lamp) I had voltage dip to 110.3 AMD pulling some 1200 watts at some points playing heavy with a Dolby True HD soundtrack from Blu-ray (David Gilmore remember that night), I assume with the 2.5 volt drop off using CMX that I had around 107.7-108 volts being supplied at that moment. New circuit is a must.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 10, 2017 17:41:36 GMT -5
Power conditioners do exactly what their name suggests, condition the power. They smooth out the peaks and troughs, inevitably that means taking the tops of the peaks, both positive and negative. Keeping in mind that we are talking AC (alternating current) so it swings from -110 to + 110 at 60 Hz (that's 60 times per second). Using a volt or so off the peaks to smooth the power seems likely. I'm sure keith can confirm but I'd be surprised if the Gen 3 SMPS had any issues with power until it drops noticeably below 110 volts. Unless I'm reading it wrong, that doesn't seem to be an issue in your case. What? a power conditioner is meant to remove NOISE from the line. Not 'smooth out peaks and troughs'. Whatever that means. Noise can be anything from the hash from a plasma TV or even some lesser-shielded 'D' amps to the noise from the Refrigerator starting. The power conditioners that I have used in pro environments have all had voltage smoothing/limiting to limit surges and spikes, as well as extreme voltage (e.g. lightning) isolation. In that environment noise filtering is commonly also present in the same box, but I have used separate power conditioners and noise filters many times e.g. Eaton and Furman make products for both purposes. In regards to the noise filtering, maybe it's just the quality of the power in Australia and/or that it's at ~240 volts, but I have never experienced any noise keeping in via the power supply, other than 50 hz hum which is commonly an earth conflict amongst the components. My experience has been that EMF/EMI/RFI noise most commonly finds its way in via interconnects and speakers cables. Using the fridge example, the ice maker in my case, changing from the 5 metre run of RCA interconnects to XLR eliminated that noise. Cheers Gary |
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Post by leonski on Jan 10, 2017 17:55:54 GMT -5
MOVs will 'remove spikes' at or above the setpoint voltage of the device. They Do wear out, and so become somewhat less effective after a few sub-critical blasts.
Limiting voltage on a PC is not a good idea, IMO. My device will shut off the whole thing ABOVE about 135v and BELOW about 95v.
The current limiting seemed to work against using MOST power amps.
My ORIGINAL install of my Panamax was like buying a new stereo. Blacker between notes. NO more noise ('snow') on the TV. When removing the input to the TV, the screen went BLACK.
I had to readjust the speakers which again improved the sound.
Good on 'ya getting rid of the Ice Maker noise. My Plasma TV which does NOT appear to effect the TV can mess-up AM Radio out to 8 or 9 Meters. And from 50khz to 30mhz.
Turning the TV OFF does NOT seem to make my stereo sound any better.
We had a MAJOR power fail in SoCal in about 2011. At that time RFI dropped to ZERO. I stayed up until 0200 with my SW radio and could hear LOTS of cool stuff previously below the noise floor.
I'm not familiar with EATON, except if it is the same company that makes IMPLANTERS for semiconductor fabrication, but do like the FURMAN stuff. I think they are now owned by or own Panamax?
When the lights came on again, about 0400 (12 hours or so after initial fail) the noise went 'back to normal'.
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Post by leonski on Jan 10, 2017 17:57:02 GMT -5
Not that I think about it, the 'smoothing' you speak to may be inherent in the fact that INDUCTORS and CAPACITORS are part of ANY power conditioner.
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Post by benbvan on Jan 10, 2017 18:09:47 GMT -5
To quote Gary about the voltage limitations of a conditioner, because I can't seem to quote on mobile... I can't find any specs on the cmX2 regarding pass thru voltage allowance. The specs page states 250% above Max amperage for short time frames are allowed.
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Post by leonski on Jan 10, 2017 19:26:26 GMT -5
An EASY way to get some kind of grip on the CMX2 would be to connect and measure a TOASTER first from the wall than thru the CMX-2.
This will give some idea of how much internal resistance you are looking at. Should be NO voltage drop without a load, or VERY little, like a couple 'tenths' of a volt.
I think ohms law could be applied using voltage drop and output curren to give a rough idea how much internal resistance you are dealing with? I'd have to TEST THIS to
see what kind of result I got..
I don't know how to test PEAK or INSTANT current demand, though. The Kill-A-Watt is probably not fast enough and doesn't have a 'peak hold' function. For that kind
of measure you might need a scope and a meter with 'peak hold' function with quick response.
I don't know that voltage will be 'the problem' but rather how FAST it will pass large bursts of current to an amp. And of course, any voltage drop while so doing.
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