|
|
Post by solidstate on Oct 16, 2016 20:54:40 GMT -5
Hey man if this FR plot is any indication of what the Airmotiv T1 tower is going to sound like you'd think people would be lining up at $700 bucks a pair!  It's FR seems smoothed or something to me when I look at the B1's FR considering it's using the same tweet/midwoofer.  You can see the AMT tweeter's signature characteristics in both plots but the midwoofer looks almost like a different driver in an FR comparison! |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Oct 16, 2016 20:56:27 GMT -5
I wonder if it's because the tweet/mid section is sealed in the T1 vs. being ported in the B1? Perhaps it's the xover taming that midwoofer or prob... BOTH
WOW is that ever an impressive FR only seen in very expensive speakers using top notch drivers and a crossover worked by a pro designer.
That midrange FR looks like Accuton or ScanSpeak Revelator performance man!
I guess I now know what my next mains are going to be!
At these prices there is no way I could best the T1 even with a top notch DIY kit.
|
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Oct 16, 2016 21:21:17 GMT -5
Here is the Airmotiv C1 Center's FR.  You can see the similarities between the B1 and C1 in terms of FR from 2000Hz down. Amazing what sealing and taming via 3 way xover does for that 5 1/4" midwoofer in the T1 Tower! That driver begs for a SEALED MTM LCR type design. Obviously bass reflex ported makes the midbass a little ragged but hey compared to anything in it's price bracket it's still very very impressive. Anyone know the driver's fs? |
|
|
|
Post by craigl59 on Oct 16, 2016 21:42:29 GMT -5
Here is the Airmotiv C1 Center's FR. You can see the similarities between the B1 and C1 in terms of FR from 2000Hz down. Amazing what sealing and taming via 3 way xover does for that 5 1/4" midwoofer in the T1 Tower! That driver begs for a SEALED MTM LCR type design. Obviously bass reflex ported makes the midbass a little ragged but hey compared to anything in it's price bracket it's still very very impressive. Anyone know the driver's fs? Don't know the f/s but did EQ my T1s in two living rooms with REW and apQualizr (as a plugin in JRiver) and they are impressive alone from about 200hz to 17khz. In these two rooms there was a slight dropoff after 17k and a more severe dip at 23k. These two rooms had (as you might expect) rather more unevenness from 40-200. The figures you quote are, I assume, from Emotiva's anechoic chamber measurements. Interestingly, have found that they are quite good in the 30-50hz region if you boost it on a slope of 10db to 0 db for this range. The second room used the entire set of T1s, C1, and E1s. They were EQ'd through REW and the overall response was nicely flat from 20 to 23k. Wrote a review in the older section of the Speaker pages (= T1 Review) and it might have some information for you. Your knowledge of speaker design is far greater than mine and I come from the musical and studio worlds. The T1s are extremely accurate. They replaced MMGs in their final place and are a significant improvement. I found them especially crisp and clear and am hoping that Emotiva produces the 10 inch set as hinted earlier. |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Oct 16, 2016 22:05:15 GMT -5
Oh wow OK I'm now sold on the T1.
I'll place an order when they become available.
And hey I'm just a DIY hack not an EE or speaker designer but thanks for the vote of confidence.
The fact someone that works in the "biz" such as yourself is impressed and is using them is enough for me to bite.
|
|
|
|
Post by craigl59 on Oct 16, 2016 22:16:40 GMT -5
Oh wow OK I'm now sold on the T1. I'll place an order when they become available. And hey I'm just a DIY hack not an EE or speaker designer but thanks for the vote of confidence. The fact someone that works in the "biz" such as yourself is impressed and is using them is enough for me to bite. Wish I had your DIY knowledge... Have had a lifetime of audiophile yearnings and have been purchasing Emotiva gear for 4 years. It competes nicely with my studio equipment, some of which costs ten times as much. Am using the Stealth 8 in a well-tuned studio and it sounds stunningly accurate. But the room and the treatment are so important and sometimes people confuse room problems with their equipment. That's why I always try and measure as much as possible. Think you will enjoy the T1s. Would have bought a second set for my other home but they were out of stock by the time I decided. Call them up tomorrow, btw, they might have some sets coming in soon (ordered an XMC-1 last Thursday and got a hint).
|
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Oct 16, 2016 23:30:25 GMT -5
Oh wow OK I'm now sold on the T1. I'll place an order when they become available. And hey I'm just a DIY hack not an EE or speaker designer but thanks for the vote of confidence. The fact someone that works in the "biz" such as yourself is impressed and is using them is enough for me to bite. Wish I had your DIY knowledge... Have had a lifetime of audiophile yearnings and have been purchasing Emotiva gear for 4 years. It competes nicely with my studio equipment, some of which costs ten times as much. Am using the Stealth 8 in a well-tuned studio and it sounds stunningly accurate. But the room and the treatment are so important and sometimes people confuse room problems with their equipment. That's why I always try and measure as much as possible. Think you will enjoy the T1s. Would have bought a second set for my other home but they were out of stock by the time I decided. Call them up tomorrow, btw, they might have some sets coming in soon (ordered an XMC-1 last Thursday and got a hint).
And I wish I had your music background bro! My family has always had a number of musicians/artists each generation but I was never given a chance as a kid to do music. I've always wanted to work in production but lacking the education in music theory and not being a musician is a huge hindrance despite whatever technical skills I've pieced together. |
|
|
|
Post by creimes on Oct 17, 2016 12:35:04 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by creimes on Oct 17, 2016 13:07:21 GMT -5
Oh and yes if I didn't already own the Chane's I would be very interested in the T1's for sure  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 13:52:34 GMT -5
Gentlemen,
I am in the process of updating the graphs for the Airmotiv speakers. Because we do not have an anechoic chamber, I have to use various techniques to obtain a quasi-anechoic response by eliminating reflected energy from the measurement. I found it was possible to improve my measurement methodology to eliminate the floor bounce effects from the original measurement of the T1 speaker by elevating it on a stand and gating the measurement, then using a ground plane measurement below 500 Hz, to give an accurate picture of the speaker's response free of floor bounce effects. The same update is coming soon for the B1, C1, and E1 speaker, and in all cases the improvement is similar in nature.
The blue trace of the original graph shows the type of low frequency extension that is achievable in a typical room, because the room boundary effects often extend the available bass from a speaker to a lower frequency, and the EQ corrections available in Dirac, Audyssey, RoomPerfect/TacT or other room correction algorithms make that bass even more usable and enjoyable by flattening it out.
In the new quasi-anechoic measurements, the T1 is shown to be quite flat indeed. The midwoofer in the B1 is not the same driver as the T1 midrange (stiffer suspension, aluminum VC former with CCAW winding used in the T1 mid, vs Kapton former and copper coil used in B1/C1 midwoofer) but its measured FR also benefits from more distance from the speaker to the first boundary (the floor) per the new measurement methodology, and improvements are coming in the graphs of each speaker model.
Keep in mind that when you place a very 'flat' speaker in a room, the real frequency response that you hear is affected by reflections from walls, floor, and ceiling, and the response you might measure will be closer to the original 'blue' graphs, unless you take the speakers outside and gate the measurement accordingly, to yield a proper quasi-anechoic response.
Best Regards,
Rory
|
|
|
|
Post by craigl59 on Oct 17, 2016 14:14:56 GMT -5
Gentlemen, I am in the process of updating the graphs for the Airmotiv speakers. Because we do not have an anechoic chamber, I have to use various techniques to obtain a quasi-anechoic response. I found it was possible to improve my measurement methodology to eliminate the floor bounce effects from the original measurement of the T1 speaker by elevating it on a stand and gating the measurement, then using a ground plane measurement below 500 Hz, to give an accurate picture of the speaker's response free of floor bounce effects. The same update is coming soon for the B1, C1, and E1 speaker, and in all cases the improvement is similar in nature. The blue trace of the original graph shows the type of low frequency extension that is achievable in a typical room, because the room boundary effects often extend the available bass from a speaker to a lower frequency, and the EQ corrections available in Dirac, Audyssey, RoomPerfect/TacT or other room correction algorithms make that bass even more usable and enjoyable by flattening it out. In the new quasi-anechoic measurements, the T1 is shown to be quite flat indeed. The midwoofer in the B1 is not the same driver as the T1 midrange (stiffer suspension, aluminum VC former with CCAW winding used in the T1 mid, vs Kapton former and copper coil used in B1/C1 midwoofer) but its measured FR also benefits from more distance from the speaker to the first boundary (the floor) per the new measurement methodology, and improvements are coming in the graphs of each speaker model. Keep in mind that when you place a very 'flat' speaker in a room, the real frequency response that you hear is affected by reflections from walls, floor, and ceiling, and the response you might measure will be closer to the original 'blue' graphs, unless you take the speakers outside and gate the measurement accordingly, to yield a proper quasi-anechoic response. Best Regards, Rory RoryB:
Thanks for this helpful update. Understand some of the first paragraph above but wonder if your testing room is, otherwise, highly treated. When I treated a sound studio where the Stealth 8s reside, I noticed that the midrange and treble smoothed out by themselves but, more significantly, the waterfall timing became nicely regular. Craig
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 14:48:01 GMT -5
Gentlemen, I am in the process of updating the graphs for the Airmotiv speakers. Because we do not have an anechoic chamber, I have to use various techniques to obtain a quasi-anechoic response. I found it was possible to improve my measurement methodology to eliminate the floor bounce effects from the original measurement of the T1 speaker by elevating it on a stand and gating the measurement, then using a ground plane measurement below 500 Hz, to give an accurate picture of the speaker's response free of floor bounce effects. The same update is coming soon for the B1, C1, and E1 speaker, and in all cases the improvement is similar in nature. The blue trace of the original graph shows the type of low frequency extension that is achievable in a typical room, because the room boundary effects often extend the available bass from a speaker to a lower frequency, and the EQ corrections available in Dirac, Audyssey, RoomPerfect/TacT or other room correction algorithms make that bass even more usable and enjoyable by flattening it out. In the new quasi-anechoic measurements, the T1 is shown to be quite flat indeed. The midwoofer in the B1 is not the same driver as the T1 midrange (stiffer suspension, aluminum VC former with CCAW winding used in the T1 mid, vs Kapton former and copper coil used in B1/C1 midwoofer) but its measured FR also benefits from more distance from the speaker to the first boundary (the floor) per the new measurement methodology, and improvements are coming in the graphs of each speaker model. Keep in mind that when you place a very 'flat' speaker in a room, the real frequency response that you hear is affected by reflections from walls, floor, and ceiling, and the response you might measure will be closer to the original 'blue' graphs, unless you take the speakers outside and gate the measurement accordingly, to yield a proper quasi-anechoic response. Best Regards, Rory RoryB:
Thanks for this helpful update. Understand some of the first paragraph above but wonder if your testing room is, otherwise, highly treated. When I treated a sound studio where the Stealth 8s reside, I noticed that the midrange and treble smoothed out by themselves but, more significantly, the waterfall timing became nicely regular. Craig
My measurement space for measuring on-axis data is highly treated, with the exception of the floor which is commercial, shallow-pile carpet. But because the measurement is gated, reflected energy is not a factor in the measurement - it behaves exactly like an anechoic environment, above the cutoff frequency defined by the gate length. Hence the term "quasi-anechoic" - the room is not truly anechoic, but the measurement methodology excludes reflected energy outside the flight-time window of the direct sound. This is set visually, by looking at the impulse response and setting the endpoint for the gate to be just before the first reflection returns to the microphone (visible as a second peak or bump separated by about 4-5 ms from the initial impulse and its decay). The main difference between the original measurements and the improved ones is that the floor bounce is also being gated, and ground plane measurement data is being used up to a higher frequency to reduce ripple further, because the ground plane data itself is quite free of ripple. When I take ground plane measurements, the speaker and microphone are both placed on foam pads, more than 30-40 feet away from any structure (in the center of our back parking lot between the engineering/production building and machine shop building). This provides accurate data to 16 Hz. Based on this process, we can provide measurement data that is indistinguishable from a true anechoic measurement between 16 Hz and 40,000 Hz. The same methods I am describing here are used by every loudspeaker manufacturer that does not own an anechoic chamber or have ready access to one (typically these are smaller makers, like we are). And even the NRC anechoic chamber has a LF cutoff of 80 Hz, below which it does not give accurate data, and so a correction curve is applied to measurements made there. |
|
|
|
Post by craigl59 on Oct 17, 2016 15:35:02 GMT -5
RoryB:
Thanks for this helpful update. Understand some of the first paragraph above but wonder if your testing room is, otherwise, highly treated. When I treated a sound studio where the Stealth 8s reside, I noticed that the midrange and treble smoothed out by themselves but, more significantly, the waterfall timing became nicely regular. Craig
My measurement space for measuring on-axis data is highly treated, with the exception of the floor which is commercial, shallow-pile carpet. But because the measurement is gated, reflected energy is not a factor in the measurement - it behaves exactly like an anechoic environment, above the cutoff frequency defined by the gate length. Hence the term "quasi-anechoic" - the room is not truly anechoic, but the measurement methodology excludes reflected energy outside the flight-time window of the direct sound. This is set visually, by looking at the impulse response and setting the endpoint for the gate to be just before the first reflection returns to the microphone (visible as a second peak or bump separated by about 4-5 ms from the initial impulse and its decay). The main difference between the original measurements and the improved ones is that the floor bounce is also being gated, and ground plane measurement data is being used up to a higher frequency to reduce ripple further, because the ground plane data itself is quite free of ripple. When I take ground plane measurements, the speaker and microphone are both placed on foam pads, more than 30-40 feet away from any structure (in the center of our back parking lot between the engineering/production building and machine shop building). This provides accurate data to 16 Hz. Based on this process, we can provide measurement data that is indistinguishable from a true anechoic measurement between 16 Hz and 40,000 Hz. The same methods I am describing here are used by every loudspeaker manufacturer that does not own an anechoic chamber or have ready access to one (typically these are smaller makers, like we are). And even the NRC anechoic chamber has a LF cutoff of 80 Hz, below which it does not give accurate data, and so a correction curve is applied to measurements made there. Thanks again and all is clear. |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Oct 17, 2016 17:05:18 GMT -5
Gentlemen, I am in the process of updating the graphs for the Airmotiv speakers. Because we do not have an anechoic chamber, I have to use various techniques to obtain a quasi-anechoic response by eliminating reflected energy from the measurement. I found it was possible to improve my measurement methodology to eliminate the floor bounce effects from the original measurement of the T1 speaker by elevating it on a stand and gating the measurement, then using a ground plane measurement below 500 Hz, to give an accurate picture of the speaker's response free of floor bounce effects. The same update is coming soon for the B1, C1, and E1 speaker, and in all cases the improvement is similar in nature. The blue trace of the original graph shows the type of low frequency extension that is achievable in a typical room, because the room boundary effects often extend the available bass from a speaker to a lower frequency, and the EQ corrections available in Dirac, Audyssey, RoomPerfect/TacT or other room correction algorithms make that bass even more usable and enjoyable by flattening it out. In the new quasi-anechoic measurements, the T1 is shown to be quite flat indeed. The midwoofer in the B1 is not the same driver as the T1 midrange (stiffer suspension, aluminum VC former with CCAW winding used in the T1 mid, vs Kapton former and copper coil used in B1/C1 midwoofer) but its measured FR also benefits from more distance from the speaker to the first boundary (the floor) per the new measurement methodology, and improvements are coming in the graphs of each speaker model. Keep in mind that when you place a very 'flat' speaker in a room, the real frequency response that you hear is affected by reflections from walls, floor, and ceiling, and the response you might measure will be closer to the original 'blue' graphs, unless you take the speakers outside and gate the measurement accordingly, to yield a proper quasi-anechoic response. Best Regards, Rory Thanks for posting this info Rory as it helps explain the difference in mid between the T1 and the rest of the product line. PS talk about taking loudspeaker measurements outdoors... some have gone as far as using a 100' tower hoisting subwoofers up the tower for measurements!  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2016 21:46:15 GMT -5
FYI - the Airmotiv T1 speakers are back in stock. Enjoy!
About a quarter of the units this production run were pre-sold by customers reserving theirs, so those orders have already shipped, and we have about as many pairs remaining as we had in the introductory run, so don't wait around if you'd like a pair. Looks like there will need to be bigger production runs, given the interest we've had so far.
|
|
novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,222 
|
Post by novisnick on Oct 29, 2016 21:53:46 GMT -5
FYI - the Airmotiv T1 speakers are back in stock. Enjoy! About a quarter of the units this production run were pre-sold by customers reserving theirs, so those orders have already shipped, and we have about as many pairs remaining as we had in the introductory run, so don't wait around if you'd like a pair. Looks like there will need to be bigger production runs, given the interest we've had so far. This is truely great news!! and begs the question,,,,,,,,T-10?  ? ??  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2016 23:50:37 GMT -5
FYI - the Airmotiv T1 speakers are back in stock. Enjoy! About a quarter of the units this production run were pre-sold by customers reserving theirs, so those orders have already shipped, and we have about as many pairs remaining as we had in the introductory run, so don't wait around if you'd like a pair. Looks like there will need to be bigger production runs, given the interest we've had so far. This is truely great news!! and begs the question,,,,,,,,T-10? ? ?? Never say never. But I wouldn't hold your breath either, unless you can hold it for at least 6-9 months. And T-10 will probably not be the name. |
|
novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,222
|
Post by novisnick on Oct 30, 2016 0:04:21 GMT -5
This is truely great news!! and begs the question,,,,,,,,T-10? ? ?? Never say never. But I wouldn't hold your breath either, unless you can hold it for at least 6-9 months. And T-10 will probably not be the name. Thank you very much for a candid answer, it is most appreciated! And refreshing may I add! |
|
