sethboy
Minor Hero
I can hear music. This is a good thing!
Posts: 38 
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Post by sethboy on Dec 6, 2016 23:50:17 GMT -5
After looking at some power conditioners / surge protectors and what not, I'm not very satisfied with what's out there for the little guy in the middle. I might also add, I don't particularly find the websites of either Panamax OR Furman to be user-friendly - like, show me simply what's the difference between your models? Checkbox "Filters" are a great thing on a shopping website in general - kudos to companies that use them, and particularly to companies that use them to provide actual important options to keep or eliminate. Anyway, let's rant.....
I don't need a power supply that will continue to power a full stadium if the voltage drops by even 1 volt, I don't need something space age that digitally monitors the power company and knows a surge is coming the day before it happens. I don't need something so complicated that most electrical engineers would scratch their head in confusion. I don't need something so sensitive that the lady down the street plugging in her curling iron will send it into fits of voltage-regulation-orgy-ness. I don't need coaxial or phone or fax line protection (Seriously, does
anyone even USE a fax machine anymore?? Heck, many people don't even
have home phones any more!!) It doesn't have to provide triple-filtered pure sine wave dual phased and regenerated from a coiled discrete magnetic solid-state super-conducting thing-a-ma-jig that removes sound waves up to something only hummingbirds with perfect hearing can hear in a sound-proof chamber.
I also don't just want a flimsy power strip, the kind they sell in nearly every type of market that carries anything more electronic than a pack of AA batteries. I don't want something that is so cheap they drew the circuit diagram inside with a Sharpie marker but didn't actually put anything inside except a paper clip and a wad of chewing gum. I don't want something that a blue-shirt 20 year old semi-employed semi-stoned gamer proffers like *ahem*Monster*ahem*because it's a really cool brand they told him to sell. And of course, I don't want to plug directly into the wall, because I KNOW our house has crappy electric service. (In some of these townhouses, it's both logical and acceptable that the same circuit covers the (downstairs) kitchen fridge, the outlet where the microwave goes, the upstairs hall ceiling fan, and the outlet in the main bathroom also upstairs and one outlet in the living room downstairs as well). Go figure.
I guess I kind of lost the point of this. Hence I simply retitled it a "rant'.
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Post by knucklehead on Dec 7, 2016 0:46:55 GMT -5
I bought a used Panamax M5300-EX from ebay for $99 shipped a couple of years ago. I didn't get it to filter out radical electrons. I bought it because some of the amps I've bought over the years do not have a 12v trigger solution for powering them up and down. Some times I would forget to power off all the amps I have. The 5300 has a single 12v trigger input that switches 6 outlets on/off. I fire up the Denon and it fires up my Acurus amp as well as all the other gear on the switched side of the Panamax. It also is used to shut off standby power for the Oppo and the Fire Stick TV thingamabob. It doesn't hurt that it has 10 plugins - six are switched on/off with the trigger with 2 outlets on a delayed on/off of about 4-5 seconds. That's where the Acurus amp is plugged in.
Before the Acurus amp I had two Crown Pro amps plugged into those delayed circuits. All of my AV gear goes through the Panamax. IIRC it can handle 20 amps of current. It's never been exceeded or it would have shut everything off. It also has a handy gauge that shows the line in voltage. Right now it's at 120v. I've seen my line voltage vary from 119-121v. Pretty steady but then I'm only 60 miles from the energy source - one of the 12 dams (includes Canadian side - three dams) on the Columbia River.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 7, 2016 7:14:16 GMT -5
Hi sethboyThe first question you may want to ask is "why do I need a power conditioner?" Any more, utility companies mostly do a much better job than they used to of keeping a steady, fairly clean voltage coming your way. Further, the power supplies of current audio equipment have been improved over the years to be more tolerant of noise and voltage variations on the line. So will you really hear any difference at all from power conditioners? As I understand it, there are but two or three basic concepts in power line conditioning: Surge suppression Noise filtering Voltage adjustment The first is easily accomplished with inexpensive plug-in devices that contain metal-oxide varistors (MOVs). If the voltage exceeds a certain level, the MOV shorts the excess voltage to ground. This is a good thing, but there are potential shortcomings. The MOVs are usually sacrificial. When they activate, they no longer work again. Often the surge suppressor has a light to tell the user that the MOVs are gone. Also, the MOVs may not short fast enough to protect the equipment. And finally, the "ground" that the MOVs are trying to short to may also have significant voltage (such as after a lightning strike). Nevertheless, MOVs are cheap and better than nothing. Another way of suppressing surges is with a "whole house protector." These are, from what I've read, better, but cost more. The second function, noise filtering, is to protect the power supply from high-frequency (HF) noise and other types of noise on the AC line. Usually a set of capacitors are intended to form a Resistance-Capacitance filter that shunts HF noise to ground. The better ones also have some inline filtering that keeps noise from reaching the transformers of the audio device. Again, audio devices today normally have their own noise filtering, but caps are cheap, so why not. The third function, voltage adjustment, is usually expensive - and also usually unnecessary. I once had a ballast transformer with a sliding slug for a core. As the voltage went up / down, the core moved to keep the output voltage steady. Today's fancy voltage adjusters totally "recreate" the 60 Hz sine wave before it's sent to the audio gear. These devices are typically VERY expensive. But before you go down any of these roads, ask the first question again - why do I need a power conditioner? Lightning, AC noise, and voltage variation are potential problems, true, but EVERY power device I've ever tried was completely inaudible in my system. YMMV Boom PS - for the EE crew on the Lounge, please feel free to correct any mistakes in the paragraphs above. I don't claim to be any power expert. Thanks. |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 7, 2016 7:47:42 GMT -5
"A pointless rant"
You got it right there save the rest of it.
(And your money 💰)
High end audio equipment (each one in the "chain") have their own independent power supplies that more than adequately handle the current for their respective applications.
Anything else added to the mix is a waste of time and money.
Bill
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Post by vneal on Dec 7, 2016 8:30:55 GMT -5
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Post by chaosrv on Dec 7, 2016 9:34:24 GMT -5
Buy an Emotiva CMX-2 and/or 6 depending on your needs. In addition to the number of outlets they have different feature sets.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 7, 2016 9:41:00 GMT -5
I have an Emotiva CMX-6, but I have a variety of "splitter-pigtails" on it to accommodate all my equipment. I think that vneal's 13-outlet Furman is actually a great idea! |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 7, 2016 9:50:48 GMT -5
I have a CMX-2 given to me as a gift 🎁.
Only 2 outlets so it's in the closet for a year now.
Currently (no pun intended) I'm using a Monster protect AV 600 that probably cost around 30 bucks ( don't recall exactly) 6 outlets with typical surge protection.
My amps. (Powered sub. And main 5 channel Sunfire are plugged directly into the wall outlets, each on separate 15 amp. Breakers.
Bill
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Post by Loop 7 on Dec 7, 2016 10:55:52 GMT -5
I use a CMX-2 from the wall and then a good surge suppressor.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 7, 2016 11:17:17 GMT -5
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Post by Loop 7 on Dec 7, 2016 11:36:26 GMT -5
Power regeneration is intriguing but I don't possess the engineering knowledge to label it valid or snake oil.
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Post by Priapulus on Dec 7, 2016 12:00:17 GMT -5
1) You don't need a powerline conditioner/noise filter. All competently designed electronics have the necessary filtration, as part of its power supply.
2) An inexpensive, good surge protector, like a $35 Panamax, is useful to protect your equipment against damaging powerline spikes. Ask any tv/radio/electronics repair shop and they will tell you that much of their work is surge-damaged equipment. They are always busiest after a thunderstorm. Very cheap insurance for $35...
3) If you have a CATV/Sat coax, it must also ground at the surge protector; to avoid surges, ground loops and hum.
4) A surge protector is not a lightning arrestor; if you have a direct lightning hit, you need fire insurance!
5) It's true that a lot of electronics has built-in surge protection. But I'd rather blow-out the MOV's in a $35 Panamax, than blow them out in my XMC-1...
Sincerely
/b
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,273
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Post by KeithL on Dec 7, 2016 12:39:27 GMT -5
It's not exactly valid and it's not exactly snake oil. A well designed power regenerator will do what it says it does - deliver very clean low distortion sine wave power. However, most well designed AUDIO equipment is designed to run off ordinary line power, and simply won't benefit from being fed anything better. (And, a poorly designed power regenerator, or one that can't deliver enough power, may actually compromise performance - possibly significantly.) Think of it like buying $10 a gallon aviation gas for your car. A few cars out there really need it - like racing cars - but yours almost certainly doesn't. It isn't likely to make your car run any better. It's POSSIBLE that it actually will make your car run worse. And it costs an awful lot. Power regeneration intriguing but I don't possess the engineering knowledge to label it valid or snake oil. |
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Post by goozoo on Dec 7, 2016 15:01:58 GMT -5
I was in the same camp as everyone else for a long time with regard to power conditioners and high end power cables for that matter. I had an opportunity to try out a Transparent Audio Power Isolator 8 with their MM2 power cable and noticed a definite improvement in the overall sound quality on my system; especially in music. At $4000 MSRP, I didn't think it was worth the money for the marginal improvement that it provided. That being said, quality power conditioners (like a Furman, or Panamax) do offer a cleaner power to your units while at the same time providing surge suppression and a lot of additional outlets. Given the fact that most people invest thousands in their audio gear, $500 for a used Furman is not a bad insurance policy versus a power strip which is sure to fail when pushed. You will not hear a difference in sound quality until you step up into something like a Transparent Audio or Shunyata; but then you are paying quite a bit for marginal improvement. If you do opt for Furman, they make a 15 and 20 amp model. Just remember, it's more for prevention than sound quality when considering your options in this price range.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 7, 2016 15:58:51 GMT -5
Hi goozoo - If you say the you heard a difference using the Transparent Audio Power Isolator, I'll not argue with you - I haven't heard it. But when you say that a name-brand, high-quality power strip (like the Tripp-Lite that I referenced) "is sure to fail," I'm instantly skeptical. I have used Monster and Furman power conditioners myself and, as I said, I heard no difference. I've also used a variety of ballast transformers that similarly made no audible difference. I also question the economy of buying a used power conditioner. Are the capacitors burnt - are the MOV's fried? You don't know. The additional money it takes to buy a new (and guaranteed) power conditioner (IF you think you need one), is worth the peace of mind, IMHO. I've also used a wide variety of shielded "audiophile-grade" power cords. My conclusion? I can't hear ANY difference at all. Not to say that it's impossible, mind you, only that no veils dropped in my system. As to "prevention," my homeowner's insurance covers my belongings (including damage to my audio system). My deductible is less than the price of a Transparent Audio Power Isolator (and roughly the same as the price of a Furman). Do I really need to worry about it? Boom |
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Post by goozoo on Dec 7, 2016 16:34:36 GMT -5
Hello Boom-
I was not referring to any particular brand as sure to fail, just that a quality power conditioner will work better at preventing damage than a cheap one. I use Tripp-Lite myself at the office and it has worked out great. I was referring to a used Furman simply for cost reasons, although you can't beat new. As insurance policy goes, I guess I have had to deal too much with actually trying to claim things over the years (business and otherwise) that it was just too much of a headache. I agree with you as well on the "audiophile" power cords by themselves...nothing really there. When combined with a high end conditioner, maybe a bit softer sounding timbre. I think the OP is wise to consider power conditioning in addition to surge protection for his needs, but finding something middle of the road will likely serve him well...that was really the whole point of the post.
Cheers...
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klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,096
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Post by klinemj on Dec 7, 2016 17:46:06 GMT -5
sethboyLots of good thinking shared above. Here is my build...put together the system you really, really want. Spend your $ on that. Once you have that - if you think that the incoming power is suspect AND that this is a source of an issue with the sound, THEN worry about a power conditioner. Frankly, you have chosen some good starting gear, and you are looking for some more things like a DAC. Once you have all the basic parts you need and decide you have "the world's best gear" and are looking for the last 0.5% you can ask of your system, then worrying about incoming power might be the icing on the cake. Otherwise...don't bother...spend the extra $ on a little better gear (as I recall, you were looking into DAC's...find a better DAC...) before you spend much on power stuff. If you are in an area of heavy lightning issues, by all means - protect your gear. But, for the other reasons Boom notes...save your $. Mark
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Post by westom on Dec 8, 2016 21:31:24 GMT -5
I was not referring to any particular brand as sure to fail, just that a quality power conditioner will work better at preventing damage than a cheap one. I use Tripp-Lite myself at the office and it has worked out great. If true, then spec numbers for that Tripplite claim were also posted. Good luck finding any spec numbers that says that. Sometimes, a device advertised as protection can even compromise more robust protection that already exists in all appliances. Products from Tripplite, Panamax, Furman, et al are not recommended using specification. Those manufactures make many conditioners / protectors that can even self destruct on a transient too tiny to harm anything else; too tiny to cause any appliances damage. Where's the Beef? First indication of a junk science recommendation is no numbers. Numerous anomalies are discussed as if same. What is this harmonic, reverse polarity, or RFI that is destructive? Where is magic 'cleanliness' created by balanced power? Why do electronics routine convert any 'clean' power into something much more 'dirty' before superior internal filters, regulators, and galvanic isolate 'cleans' that intentionally made dirtiest' electricity? IOW it does not matter how much a line conditioner 'cleans' power. Since 'cleaning' is undone. Then a superior, existing cleaner does more better. What spec numbers define 'dirty'? What spec numbers say how much 'cleaning' is done? Which anomalies, defined by numbers, are problematic? So many subjective claim, then endorsed by others, suggest a fundamental problem. Long before anything can be cured, first the problem / anomaly must be defined. Honest solutions are listed separately for each anomaly. We know this once numbers are included. Any magic performed by a line conditioner is typically inferior to what is already inside electronics. Where is a spec number that defines an advantage / protection provided by that Tripplite? No numbers implies conclusions only based in emotions and speculation. |
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sethboy
Minor Hero
I can hear music. This is a good thing!
Posts: 38
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Post by sethboy on Dec 9, 2016 6:57:09 GMT -5
Wow! THANKS everyone for their valuable input. I didn't mean to cause yet another flare-up of this first that but I suppose that always happens on any topic on any message board. I have a pure sine wave UPS battery backup for my main computer since it's very finicky but of course I don't really need battery backup on Polo Gear in the same way. I will probably fill in the power gear somewhere in the middle nothing usually Overkill but not the cheap $5 power strip that either of course
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Post by westom on Dec 9, 2016 10:16:14 GMT -5
I have a pure sine wave UPS battery backup for my main computer since it's very finicky Mine is also a 120 volt pure sine wave UPS. In battery backup mode, it outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike up to 270 volts. No problem due to protection that is routinely found inside all electronics. But problematic for motorized appliances. From high school math, square waves and spikes are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves. They did not lie. Described subjectively is a pure sine wave output - the sum or many sine waves. Another example of why it is not what was only assumed when specifications (ie %THD) are missing. |
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