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Post by Axis on Dec 19, 2016 17:42:36 GMT -5
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Post by Axis on Dec 19, 2016 17:55:19 GMT -5
The Lake People G109-P gets good reviews and has lots of power but price just above $500. The Emotiva A-100 headphone out, looks to beat it and just about everyone else in power but the Lake People and Violectric use balanced amps in the better designs. The G109-P is a balanced amp but no balanced out ? I have not used a balanced headphone amp yet but when I find something that looks like it will mate with the DC-1 balanced out I plan on hearing for myself if balanced headphone is anything more than just more output from said amp. violectric-usa.com/headphone-amplifiers?product_id=105   Max. output level: > 18.8 Veff in 600 ohms = 590 mW > 13.8 Veff in 100 ohms = 1900 mW > 10.7 Veff in 50 ohms = 2300 mW > 7.8 Veff in 50 ohms = 1900 mW > 3.7 Veff in 16 ohms = 410 mW |
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Post by Axis on Dec 19, 2016 18:35:53 GMT -5
If they made it in black. schiit.com/products/jotunheim  Balanced Headphone Output: Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 7500mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 5000mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 3000mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 900mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 600 ohms: 500mW RMS per channel Single-Ended Headphone Output: Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 2500mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 1500mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 800mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 350mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 600 ohms: 175mW RMS per channel |
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Post by kewlmunky on Dec 20, 2016 8:42:23 GMT -5
On the Lake People G109-P, are the outputs two separate 1/4" single ended, or are they a pair of balanced 1/4" outputs? They don't specify. My Sony MDR-Z7 had a balanced cable that was terminated with a pair of 1/4" TRS plugs. It's an odd and rare balanced connection, but it's out there.
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Post by vcautokid on Dec 20, 2016 12:42:49 GMT -5
These are great times for headphone amps. Everyone can be happy. From $25.00 up, you can do very well. From Fiio to many others. Depending on what you drive. Schiit, Audio GD, the DC-1 and many many more. I love my Magni 2 Uber for the record.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 20, 2016 13:01:36 GMT -5
These are great times for headphone amps. Everyone can be happy. From $25.00 up, you can do very well. From Fiio to many others. Depending on what you drive. Schiit, Audio GD, the DC-1 and many many more. I love my Magni 2 Uber for the record. True! We didn't use to have so many choices! |
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Post by Axis on Dec 20, 2016 21:18:27 GMT -5
This looks cool but it breaks the $500 mark. A portable DAC/Headphone amp can be a very handy thing. If you have not thought about it, you can take your audio system with you now and with the proper headphones can make you like the sound even better than the one that is stuck in house. Listening to U2 as you wonder the world is very cool and not over rated. You can strap this to your telephone.  www.rha-audio.com/us/products/dacamp-l1  |
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Post by Axis on Dec 20, 2016 21:28:06 GMT -5
On the Lake People G109-P, are the outputs two separate 1/4" single ended, or are they a pair of balanced 1/4" outputs? They don't specify. My Sony MDR-Z7 had a balanced cable that was terminated with a pair of 1/4" TRS plugs. It's an odd and rare balanced connection, but it's out there. I will look into this but everything I have read so far has me thinking they are both single ended 1/4 stereo outputs. |
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Post by vcautokid on Dec 21, 2016 2:27:09 GMT -5
I sold RHA for a little bit, and they are a quality company with nice sounding products. Has won the Japan Audiophile award numerous times.
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Post by Axis on Dec 21, 2016 2:31:00 GMT -5
I sold RHA for a little bit, and they are a quality company with nice sounding products. Has won the Japan Audiophile award numerous times. Absolutely, I have known about RHA In Ears for a long while and they always get great reviews. |
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 21, 2016 9:23:51 GMT -5
If they made it in black. schiit.com/products/jotunheimBalanced Headphone Output: Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 7500mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 5000mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 3000mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 900mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 600 ohms: 500mW RMS per channel Single-Ended Headphone Output: Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 2500mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 1500mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 800mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 350mW RMS per channel Maximum Power, 600 ohms: 175mW RMS per channel The silver looks awesome! Super classy. Way better than ho-hum boring black. Hey, you started it.   |
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Post by millst on Dec 21, 2016 11:25:12 GMT -5
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Post by garbulky on Dec 21, 2016 12:01:43 GMT -5
I like that guy. He got in there. Did his own measurements and he had evidence to what he was saying. Schiit redesigned the Asgard so that the issue wouldn't happen again. His efforts at providing a make your own headphone amp and DAC were admirable! |
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Post by millst on Dec 21, 2016 12:13:50 GMT -5
Yes, they fixed it, but [from what I recall] not after shooting the messenger and making some comments that called in to question whether they even knew what they were doing when it came to audio design...
-tm
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,255
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Post by KeithL on Dec 21, 2016 12:58:16 GMT -5
A few words about balanced headphones and balanced headphone amps.
1) Basically ALL speaker drivers are balanced (I'm not aware of any exceptions, although a few might exist).
2) The benefit of BALANCED AMPLIFIERS is that, because they use two symmetrical amplifier channels, the distortions generated by each tend to cancel out.
HOWEVER, whether this benefit is realized depends on a lot of factors - including how good the individual amplifier channels are to begin with.
There's no magic involved. ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, a balanced amplifier may be slightly better, or it may not.
However, since you're talking about twice as many parts, and getting them all to work together, all else is rarely equal.
As a complete aside, in battery operated devices like the Pono, a balanced output may allow you to generate more output signal voltage with simpler circuitry...
which may yield a real benefit. However, this is ONLY true for battery operated equipment.
And, when you start talking about using balanced cables and balanced amplifiers to power balanced headphones, the results become somewhat more ambiguous.
To put it bluntly, there's nothing to suggest that an otherwise equal design is going to sound better "just because it's balanced".
If the design has very low distortion to begin with, then you don't gain much by making a balanced version, and you still double the parts count and the complexity.
(And, to turn that around: If you want to avoid doubling the cost, then you're going to have to use cheaper parts, or cut corners somewhere else.)
And the extra complexity may actually result in a higher noise floor, or other "complications".
In short, to repeat something I've often said in other contexts.....
You should judge each product on its own merits.
Don't assume that a balanced amplifier, or headphone, or headphone cable, is going to be better - unless it really is.
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Post by Axis on Dec 21, 2016 13:41:55 GMT -5
Most of the headphone amps out there with a reasonable price are not balanced and for 300 ohm loads are under 300 milliwatts. You want a solid state headphone amp that has some good power with at least 1 watt for 300 ohm loads, you have to go balanced. The A-100 solves that but is a little big. A $200 headphone amp that is a little smaller would be better and no one will mind that it is not balanced. A few words about balanced headphones and balanced headphone amps.
1) Basically ALL speaker drivers are balanced (I'm not aware of any exceptions, although a few might exist).
2) The benefit of BALANCED AMPLIFIERS is that, because they use two symmetrical amplifier channels, the distortions generated by each tend to cancel out.
HOWEVER, whether this benefit is realized depends on a lot of factors - including how good the individual amplifier channels are to begin with.
There's no magic involved. ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, a balanced amplifier may be slightly better, or it may not.
However, since you're talking about twice as many parts, and getting them all to work together, all else is rarely equal.
As a complete aside, in battery operated devices like the Pono, a balanced output may allow you to generate more output signal voltage with simpler circuitry...
which may yield a real benefit. However, this is ONLY true for battery operated equipment.
And, when you start talking about using balanced cables and balanced amplifiers to power balanced headphones, the results become somewhat more ambiguous.
To put it bluntly, there's nothing to suggest that an otherwise equal design is going to sound better "just because it's balanced".
If the design has very low distortion to begin with, then you don't gain much by making a balanced version, and you still double the parts count and the complexity.
(And, to turn that around: If you want to avoid doubling the cost, then you're going to have to use cheaper parts, or cut corners somewhere else.)
And the extra complexity may actually result in a higher noise floor, or other "complications".
In short, to repeat something I've often said in other contexts.....
You should judge each product on its own merits.
Don't assume that a balanced amplifier, or headphone, or headphone cable, is going to be better - unless it really is.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,255
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Post by KeithL on Dec 21, 2016 14:20:29 GMT -5
The basic problem is that the requirements for high impedance headphones are in fact rather different than the requirements for low impedance ones. In other words, it's actually pretty trivial to design a low cost headphone amp that will deliver plenty of power into a pair of 30 Ohm phones. It would also be pretty easy to design an amp to deliver a reasonable amount of power into 300 Ohm or 600 Ohm phones. The catch is that it's quite a bit more complicated to design a simple low cost amp that can do both well. So, since the majority of headphones are low impedance, the majority of amps are designed mainly to work well with them. And the majority of amps that work well with both are more complicated and expensive designs with fewer overall limitations. (If you rate the A-100 strictly as a headphone amp, it's a super-duper monster heavy duty headphone amp.) It would really be pretty simple to design a low cost headphone amp that worked well with JUST high impedance headphones - as a separate model. Presumably you don't see more of them simply because nobody thinks the market is large enough. (And, yes, all else being equal, a balanced design is somewhat more likely to be able to deliver the higher voltages required.) Most of the headphone amps out there with a reasonable price are not balanced and for 300 ohm loads are under 300 milliwatts. You want a solid state headphone amp that has some good power with at least 1 watt for 300 ohm loads, you have to go balanced. The A-100 solves that but is a little big. A $200 headphone amp that is a little smaller would be better and no one will mind that it is not balanced. A few words about balanced headphones and balanced headphone amps.
1) Basically ALL speaker drivers are balanced (I'm not aware of any exceptions, although a few might exist).
2) The benefit of BALANCED AMPLIFIERS is that, because they use two symmetrical amplifier channels, the distortions generated by each tend to cancel out.
HOWEVER, whether this benefit is realized depends on a lot of factors - including how good the individual amplifier channels are to begin with.
There's no magic involved. ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, a balanced amplifier may be slightly better, or it may not.
However, since you're talking about twice as many parts, and getting them all to work together, all else is rarely equal.
As a complete aside, in battery operated devices like the Pono, a balanced output may allow you to generate more output signal voltage with simpler circuitry...
which may yield a real benefit. However, this is ONLY true for battery operated equipment.
And, when you start talking about using balanced cables and balanced amplifiers to power balanced headphones, the results become somewhat more ambiguous.
To put it bluntly, there's nothing to suggest that an otherwise equal design is going to sound better "just because it's balanced".
If the design has very low distortion to begin with, then you don't gain much by making a balanced version, and you still double the parts count and the complexity.
(And, to turn that around: If you want to avoid doubling the cost, then you're going to have to use cheaper parts, or cut corners somewhere else.)
And the extra complexity may actually result in a higher noise floor, or other "complications".
In short, to repeat something I've often said in other contexts.....
You should judge each product on its own merits.
Don't assume that a balanced amplifier, or headphone, or headphone cable, is going to be better - unless it really is.
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Post by Axis on Dec 21, 2016 14:38:48 GMT -5
The Schiit Jotunheim can do every headphone out there and does this for 300 ohms. Single-Ended Headphone Output 300 ohms: 350mW RMS per channel Balanced Headphone Output 300 ohms: 900mW RMS per channel What am I missing ? Is there a market out there ? Yes, Me ! And I like Gear that is black. The basic problem is that the requirements for high impedance headphones are in fact rather different than the requirements for low impedance ones. In other words, it's actually pretty trivial to design a low cost headphone amp that will deliver plenty of power into a pair of 30 Ohm phones. It would also be pretty easy to design an amp to deliver a reasonable amount of power into 300 Ohm or 600 Ohm phones. The catch is that it's quite a bit more complicated to design a simple low cost amp that can do both well. So, since the majority of headphones are low impedance, the majority of amps are designed mainly to work well with them. And the majority of amps that work well with both are more complicated and expensive designs with fewer overall limitations. (If you rate the A-100 strictly as a headphone amp, it's a super-duper monster heavy duty headphone amp.) It would really be pretty simple to design a low cost headphone amp that worked well with JUST high impedance headphones - as a separate model. Presumably you don't see more of them simply because nobody thinks the market is large enough. (And, yes, all else being equal, a balanced design is somewhat more likely to be able to deliver the higher voltages required.) Most of the headphone amps out there with a reasonable price are not balanced and for 300 ohm loads are under 300 milliwatts. You want a solid state headphone amp that has some good power with at least 1 watt for 300 ohm loads, you have to go balanced. The A-100 solves that but is a little big. A $200 headphone amp that is a little smaller would be better and no one will mind that it is not balanced. |
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Post by qdtjni on Dec 21, 2016 15:14:49 GMT -5
The Schiit Jotunheim can do every headphone out there and does this for 300 ohms. Single-Ended Headphone Output 300 ohms: 350mW RMS per channel Balanced Headphone Output 300 ohms: 900mW RMS per channel What am I missing ? Is there a market out there ? Yes, Me ! And I like Gear that is black. While listening to Rolling Stones, jus Paint it black!  Jokes aside, I have the Jotunheim and just tried it with a new set of HD 600s (Thanks Jdubs!). It works great, it also works fantastic with Shure 535 IEMs, as well as with HD 700, Grado RS2 & HE-560. I've yet to try with LCD-2 and HE-350. I'm really happy with it and will get one more. |
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Post by Axis on Dec 21, 2016 15:24:48 GMT -5
If they made it in black. The silver looks awesome! Super classy. Way better than ho-hum boring black. Hey, you started it. Touché ! Bonzo |
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