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Post by copperpipe on Dec 31, 2016 8:55:31 GMT -5
By themselves, power cords will not make a difference in sound quality. Having a 14GA cord is better and does provide for better insulation. When combined with a high quality power conditioner, then you should get a smoother sound, albeit may not be worth it for the cost (e.g $3500). I upgraded my power cords to 12GA from Home Depot for many years before I switched over to a power conditioner combination. As for the Bas-X line, it is their least expensive entry level unit so you can't expect much in the parts dept. They put all that effort into making a high quality amp, but they skimp on a $2.00 power cord? You think if it improves the sound they wouldn't grab that "low hanging fruit" and throw in a power cord which does the job? |
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Post by Jim on Dec 31, 2016 9:01:02 GMT -5
But don't think that because this is an economy unit, it sounds that way - it doesn't. How does an economy unit.... "sound"? Does it sound... economical? While we are at it... does expensive sound...."expensive"? It sounds like a million bucks! |
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andy12
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Post by andy12 on Dec 31, 2016 17:36:43 GMT -5
Not meaning to start a big debate ,however I'm a firm believer in upgrading power cords. To my ears they've made a significant difference in s.q. Enough to justify what I've spent. I've noticed the most difference on my Xpa2s followed by less but still significant difference with my XSP1s and both of my DC-1s. I have encountered having not as good a sound than the factory cables. Trial and error . Not that the factory cables sound bad at all,just to my ears and several friends the right upgraded cables made a noticeable improvement in three systems. The PT-100 uses the two prong cable which I replaced with a Audioquest - NRG-X2 with nice results well worth the 53 bucks spent. Happy New Year To All !
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LCSeminole
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Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Dec 31, 2016 17:52:28 GMT -5
Not meaning to start a big debate ,however I'm a firm believer in upgrading power cords. To my ears they've made a significant difference in s.q. Enough to justify what I've spent. I've noticed the most difference on my Xpa2s followed by less but still significant difference with my XSP1s and both of my DC-1s. I have encountered having not as good a sound than the factory cables. Trial and error . Not that the factory cables sound bad at all,just to my ears and several friends the right upgraded cables made a noticeable improvement in three systems. The PT-100 uses the two prong cable which I replaced with a Audioquest - NRG-X2 with nice results well worth the 53 bucks spent. Happy New Year To All ! I'd be curious to know that since you've definitely heard a difference for the better with "upgraded power cords", have you ever heard a difference where the so called "upgraded power cord" makes the component sound worse? I can honestly say I've never read about a negative impact on sound from an "upgraded power cord". Where there is improvement from power cords, there is bound to be a negative impact as well, wouldn't you think? Again I'm just curious since I've not read anything about any negative impacts on sound. |
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andy12
Seeker Of Truth
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Post by andy12 on Dec 31, 2016 18:06:24 GMT -5
I have had a case where a Pangea Audio AC 14SE MKII Signature Power Cable on a DC-1 sounded not as good as the factory cable on one system ,yet sounded better than the factory cable on my other DC-1 in another system. I sent the first one back and retained the factory cable. My belief is that cables are system dependent.
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andy12
Seeker Of Truth
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Post by andy12 on Dec 31, 2016 18:26:55 GMT -5
Another good example is I use a M2 Tech HiFace Two Hi-End S/SPDIF Output Interface with RCA connector from my pc to the Dc-1. Instead of using the pc usb 5v to power the Interface ,I was using an adapter to block the usb power and use battery power which is much cleaner.I got tired of charging batteries and decided on a linear power supply . Initially I wasn't too impressed and was almost ready to send it back. I decided to try a Pangea AC-14 I borrowed from one of my subs. The sound had improved so much that I ordered the same power supply for my other system along with the 29 dollar AC-14. Swapping out the AC-14 with a 75 dollar "Signal Cable" power cord made no difference and was probably inferior to the 29 dollar AC-14, which goes to show power cords are device and system dependent.
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 2, 2017 10:31:41 GMT -5
No such thing as upgrading by changing the wire and plug.
If one gets a warm and fuzzy feeling by changing to a different looking wire then that's nice.
It can help to bolster the imagination of the end user however!
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Post by garbulky on Jan 2, 2017 11:34:25 GMT -5
I took delivery of a new Bas-X A500 a couple of weeks ago (from Canadian distributor), and finally last night had the opportunity to unbox it and get the unit into my cabinet/rack. 3 things I immediately noted about this unit: 1) The power on/standby glowing button on the front is much smaller than the same button on my XPA-100's (silly little detail) 2) The binding posts look much "cheaper" than the posts on my XPA-100's (cheapy looking red and black plastic) 3) The power cable shipped with the unit is far less "beefy" than the power cord of the XPA-100's The third item is the focus of my question. The cord with the A500 feels kind of thin and (for lack of a better term) cheap, as compared to the XPA-100's, and it is only 2-prong. Now, I am sure that Big Dan and crew know what they are doing and that the cord with the unit satisfies the basic power draw requirements. But, I'm curious if others who have taken delivery of a Bas-X unit have considered, or actually gone ahead with, upgrading the power cord to an X-series cord. Or is my thinking just snake oil? That's because the Bas-x is not the replacement line as the XPA-100's. I mean in a way it is. But not really. The XPA-100 line was discontinued. The bas-x line is the replacement for the UPA-200, UPA-500 line. Back then there were two lines. The entry level line the old U series like the UPA-1, UPA-2, UPA-5. And the X-series line - more beefy = the XPA-1, XPA-2, XPA-5. The U-series was somewhat close to the x-series line but apparently it's sales were not that great. The U-series used amp blades from the XPA-5 one per channel. They also used hefty heat sinks. Pretty impressive. Though "entry level" they were pretty fantastic units in their own right. Then later on Emotiva chagned its lines. The X-series stays somewhat the same with a few differences - the most coming in the form of the XPA-1 gen 2. The u-series however was replaced by a different amp - the new u-series. These were called the UPA-200, UPA-500, UPA-700. When you compare the two you could see that these amps had a lot less (physically) than the old u-series. The amp blade per channel was gone and so were the hefty heat sinks. In its place all channels were performed by a single blade and a fan and a smaller heat sink took the place of the large heat sink. In terms of being entry level - these were more "entry level" than its older u-series siblings (imo). Emotiva however didn't completely lose it. They bought the old u-series back. They were just renamed in to the X-series - the X-x00 name. The UPA-1 became the XPA-100. The UPA-2 became the XPA-200. They even gave it some minor upgrades like XLR outputs, better capacitance, lower gain (lower noise). A nice move making an already great amplifier a bit better. However it did come with a much higher price than it had before. Finally Emotiva replaced the new u-series (UPA-200, UPA-500) with the Bas-x line which if you look at the internals looks close to identical to it. However Emotiva says there have been improvements made whatever those are. So all that to say... this is the reason your XPA-100 looks nicer than the Bas-x. It's because it came from the older u-series which was more beefy in build and was not related as much to the newer u-series. |
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Post by repeetavx on Jan 2, 2017 12:42:33 GMT -5
Emotiva however didn't completely lose it. They bought the old u-series back. They were just renamed in to the X-series - the X-x00 name. The UPA-1 became the XPA-100. The UPA-2 became the XPA-200. They even gave it some minor upgrades like XLR outputs, better capacitance, lower gain (lower noise). A nice move making an already great amplifier a bit better. However it did come with a much higher price than it had before. Um, yes maybe, but... I own both the UPA-1 and the XPA-100. The XPA-100 controls bass frequencies much better than the UPA-1. |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 2, 2017 12:50:13 GMT -5
Emotiva however didn't completely lose it. They bought the old u-series back. They were just renamed in to the X-series - the X-x00 name. The UPA-1 became the XPA-100. The UPA-2 became the XPA-200. They even gave it some minor upgrades like XLR outputs, better capacitance, lower gain (lower noise). A nice move making an already great amplifier a bit better. However it did come with a much higher price than it had before. Um, yes maybe, but... I own both the UPA-1 and the XPA-100. The XPA-100 controls bass frequencies much better than the UPA-1. I've heard that from another person who has the XPA-200 and the UPA-2. I guess they did make it a bit better. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 2, 2017 15:02:52 GMT -5
DIY power cables are a wonderful cottage industry. My choice would be 14ga BELDEN wire. #19394 is 14ga and is the 'core' of multiple DIY efforts. EMO amps could probably ALL benefit from an upgrade in power cord. GAUGE of wire especially for the highest power amps should be increased to 12ga at least. The OTHER way to go, and premade, would be the PANGEA cord. www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGAC14&opt=2089This is the AudioAdvisor link. The 2 meter cord will go 50$ which you'll find tough to beat any way you slice it. |
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Post by Jim on Jan 2, 2017 15:08:55 GMT -5
DIY power cables are a wonderful cottage industry. My choice would be 14ga BELDEN wire. #19394 is 14ga and is the 'core' of multiple DIY efforts. EMO amps could probably ALL benefit from an upgrade in power cord. GAUGE of wire especially for the highest power amps should be increased to 12ga at least. The OTHER way to go, and premade, would be the PANGEA cord. www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGAC14&opt=2089This is the AudioAdvisor link. The 2 meter cord will go 50$ which you'll find tough to beat any way you slice it. How would they benefit exactly? The length is so short.... it's not going to be meaningful when it comes to voltage drop.. |
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Post by copperpipe on Jan 2, 2017 15:24:42 GMT -5
DIY power cables are a wonderful cottage industry. My choice would be 14ga BELDEN wire. #19394 is 14ga and is the 'core' of multiple DIY efforts. EMO amps could probably ALL benefit from an upgrade in power cord. GAUGE of wire especially for the highest power amps should be increased to 12ga at least. The OTHER way to go, and premade, would be the PANGEA cord. www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGAC14&opt=2089This is the AudioAdvisor link. The 2 meter cord will go 50$ which you'll find tough to beat any way you slice it. How would they benefit exactly? The length is so short.... it's not going to be meaningful when it comes to voltage drop.. Shhh... let them prop up the audio industry, keeps prices down for the rest of us  (miles upon miles of power cables out in the country/city, another 50 feet in the wall, couple more feet in the amp itself, none of that matters ... but that 2 - 3 feet of cable between amp and wall is crucially important if you want smooth sound.) |
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Post by RichGuy on Jan 2, 2017 16:33:26 GMT -5
I make my own power cords I usually use Belden wire and I use Marinco connectors, all good high quality stuff.
Reasons for DIY upgraded power cords.
1. Just plain better quality
2. Nicer looks
3. The exact length I want without the extra mess of excess cable.
4. Quality connectors which always fit well for a snug good connection.
5. Shielding. This is where an improvement in sound quality can come from.
So what does shielding do? Standard power cords have no shielding only insulation. What shielding does is protects against interference or unwanted noise both from entering through the cable or from the cable itself from causing noise to other nearby cables and/or system components that the power cord is in the vicinity of in those last few feet where the power cord is in your system. This not only helps prevent the possible occasional loud interference electrical noises but also any very slight noise which is nearly undetectable but reduces the performance of your system. The less unwanted system noise or the blacker the noise floor is, the better your system will sound with more clarity and a cleaner sound.
It's nothing magic, you don't need massive gauge, expensive tricks or other bull****, just quality and better engineering.
BTW. the miles of power lines to your home are completely different they are massive very high voltage and can be very noisy, also the power wires inside your walls are far enough from your system so no shielding is necessary or beneficial for them.
Using a good power conditioner to help filter out any noise picked up on the way to your system and then using good shielded power cords where they are near your system can help to lower the unwanted noise that effects the sound quality of your system, nothing magic.
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Post by Jim on Jan 2, 2017 17:53:19 GMT -5
Lol. Transmission lines don't have shielding.... nevermind insulation!
Heck, even distribution lines aren't insulated typically....unless buried.
Normally I think there is limited gain in shielding power cords...
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Post by leonski on Jan 2, 2017 18:06:07 GMT -5
Fundamentals rule. Passing a large burst of current with minimal voltage drop is critical to power amp operation. After a long session at high levels, ANY warmth at either
end of the power cord is cause for suspicion.
The big EMO mono blocs issued with 16 ga or 14 ga is insufficient for max current transfers.
Likewise, the new generation amps are also 'under corded' from the factory and an easy, inexpensive upgrade can be had either DIY or thru the purchase of
something like the Pangea. Pangea ALSO makes a 9 ga power cord, suitable for the largest mono blocs from Pass, EMO, Macintosh and others.
My Parasound A23 comes with 16ga which is undersize, IMO. The 14ga Belden would make me feel better.
In your house, for example, a 100 amp SUB panel probably requires #4 copper. That's 0.2"+ or over 5mm.
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Post by RichGuy on Jan 2, 2017 18:40:11 GMT -5
Lol. Transmission lines don't have shielding.... nevermind insulation! Heck, even distribution lines aren't insulated typically....unless buried. Normally I think there is limited gain in shielding power cords... Exactly just as I said they are completely different and don't apply, power lines are extremely noisy and fortunately they are a great distance from your system, your systems power cables on the other hand are right there in the middle of it. This is why those last few feet it helps to have shielded wire and you don't have to worry about what the power company uses or what in your walls they don't matter, but the cables right in the middle of your system do matter. A good power conditioner will help filter any problems picked up by the power companies lines, your wiring inside your wall is far enough away they won't need the shielding and the power cleaned up by a power conditioner is helped to both remain clean and not cause interference to your system because of shielding for them. Shielding is something that is used all throughout your system to help from unwanted noise and better components usually are better shielded to help keep unwanted noise out. Emotiva uses some internal shielding for protection as well. What shielding is, is protection from unwanted electrical noise entering into your system and this can happen from several different sources inside of and outside of the case of your components. Better shielding equals less unwanted noise in your systems sound. No one is saying everyone needs to buy shielded power cords, but they are an option for anyone who's looking for ways which can help to get the very best from their system. |
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Post by Jim on Jan 2, 2017 19:00:26 GMT -5
A good power supply won't benefit much from a conditioner and slightly larger power supply.
I think that line conditioners are highly overrated. But if you feel better in spending your money on it, go for it.
I bet you couldn't tell the difference in a DBT though. Our favorite topic!
If you measure your internal wiring for noise... the real question is why is it so noisy? CFLs are terrible. I don't believe that you should need to condition your power.
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Post by leonski on Jan 2, 2017 19:19:56 GMT -5
My ANECDOTAL evidence is that power conditioners WORK well.
When I connnected my Panamax for the first time, I had to 'pop' my ears. The space between the notes became 'blacker'.
And nothing was wrong beforehand. But the difference?
I couldn't quantify it but it was jaw dropping. I had to readjust my speaker positioning to take advantage of the new, better sound.
My (THAN) CRT TV? Virtually ALL the little 'flecks' of snow DisAppeared. Blacks became blacker and colors better, and slight more saturated.
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Post by Jim on Jan 2, 2017 19:21:37 GMT -5
Interesting.
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