emoear
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Post by emoear on Jan 7, 2017 12:38:17 GMT -5
I am custom building a media closet and want to make sure we have enough circuits for our equipment. Currently I have 2 x 20 amp circuits but wondering if we should add more and if so how many. Not sure which forum to post in but I'm assuming the amps will draw the most power.
Equipment:
3 x XPA1 Amp
2 x XPA4 Amp
2 x A700 Amp
1 x XMC1 Receiver
2 x MC700 Receiver
12 x 70w channel distributed audio
1 x 24 drive NAS
1 x blueiris server
1 x Plex/homeseer server
2 x 24 port Poe switch
1 x 48 portswitch
3 x 1500va UPS
6 x Sonos
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jan 7, 2017 13:18:33 GMT -5
I think the real question is "how much cooling do you need?"
Frankly, I am at a loss on your question though...2 seems a little light for all that. I have that much but spread out across the house across multiple circuits. I never considered putting it all onto just 2.
One question/comment back to you...you mention the 6 Sonos and list the 12*70w distributed audio. I assume the Sonos are all Sonos Connect's and the distributed audio is what you plan to use for amplification. Right? Ever considered a non-centralized whole home system? The Sonos makes it very viable.
FYI, I have 8 Sonos zones with in-wall wiring running from a central point to various locations. I put the wire in when I built the house. If I were to do it again, I would not have put the in-wall wiring in from a single central point. I would have, for most rooms, put in wire from where I would place a Sonos to where I wanted speakers in each area I wanted sound. For some things, I might have used a central Sonos unit or two that go to various places in the house. But, I would not locate them all in one place as it makes for very long speaker wire runs and therefore a lot of cost in cable + effort to install. And, for most places, I find the Sonos Amp product to be very good...plenty of power for most listening and not need for an external amp. About the only place I have Sonos Amps and would want a separate amp is for the power going to my deck by the pool...the Sonos Amp needs more power to fill an 18' x 50' deck and project over the pool at a reasonable volume.
Mark
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emoear
Seeker Of Truth
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Post by emoear on Jan 7, 2017 14:03:15 GMT -5
The Sonos do not have amps and due to various reasons having them in a single closet is necessary.
In terms of power draw is there any way to calculate the AMP requirements?
Finally, cooling, great point. I was planning on using 12000 BTU portable exhausting out the side of the house. Maybe I need to double it?
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Post by knucklehead on Jan 7, 2017 14:05:11 GMT -5
I run everything in my sig line on a single outlet from a 20a breaker with no problems. That single plug is a Panamax 5300 which all my gear is plugged into. The Panamax would trip if too much demand is put on it. I've never had it trip. If you're not sure how much power draw your gear pulls from a single circuit you can get something like a Kill A Watt to monitor how much power draw there is on a single plug. You might be surprised by how little your amps use even during high dynamic movie passages. I have a vintage Nikko integrated amp in my vinyl setup - it has watt meters which show how much wattage is being delivered to the speakers. It seldom gets much higher than 2-3 watts per side. It draws more than that at idle and more than 2-3 watts during play. My point is even during dynamic listening using all channels available the draw from all that gear is probably less than you might think. The only thing I'd be concerned with is having all amps powered up at the same time. Which is where a preamp processor with delayed on triggers are handy to prevent a sudden surge in power use when everything is powered up at the same time. The Panamax has 4 outlets with a 5 second delay on power up using it's 12v trigger on/off. I've found that feature alone is worth the price ($100 used off ebay) for older amps such as Acurus amps without a trigger on. Yeah - I'm lazy! |
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emoear
Seeker Of Truth
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Post by emoear on Jan 7, 2017 14:14:23 GMT -5
What equipment do you have on that circuit?
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Post by leonski on Jan 8, 2017 0:02:50 GMT -5
The Sonos do not have amps and due to various reasons having them in a single closet is necessary. In terms of power draw is there any way to calculate the AMP requirements? Finally, cooling, great point. I was planning on using 12000 BTU portable exhausting out the side of the house. Maybe I need to double it? Maybe a louvered door to the closet and an exhaust fan IN THE CEILING of the closet. That way? Cooler air enters and goes UP and out. Make sure the vent/fan has self-closing flaps so air doesn't come back in the heat of summer. Some kind of thermometer would sure be nice, at least until you figure it is not necessary. DON"T stack hot stuff on each other. Amps are NOT the most important measure of draw. You want to know the VA which is ALWAYS higher than watts. This takes into account how 'reactive' the load is and how far out of phase voltage and current peaks are. I don't know how much draw you will have, but 2x20 seems a little thin. Another pair of either 15 or 20 amp circuits for all the low current stuff. Amps can be segregated to the 20 amp circuits by themselves. A good, multi-outlet power conditioner for all the low power stuff has got to be a step in the right direction. And NO, not a 200$ monster ANYTHING. Some poster here on emolounge has a Belkin which looks robustly made and has multiple independent outlets. All circuits should be off the SAME SIDE of the box which will help prevent ground loop issues. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jan 8, 2017 1:11:13 GMT -5
The Sonos do not have amps and due to various reasons having them in a single closet is necessary. In terms of power draw is there any way to calculate the AMP requirements? Finally, cooling, great point. I was planning on using 12000 BTU portable exhausting out the side of the house. Maybe I need to double it? So, you already have the Sonos units? Just asking because they sell versions with and without amps. Mark |
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Post by leonski on Jan 8, 2017 12:52:07 GMT -5
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jan 8, 2017 13:41:58 GMT -5
Run two 20 amp circuits and you'll be fine.
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Post by Axis on Jan 8, 2017 13:46:53 GMT -5
Run two 20 amp circuits and you'll be fine. Advice from a professional for free.  Thanks for being here David. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 8, 2017 14:14:56 GMT -5
Run two 20 amp circuits and you'll be fine. Rather than more amps what about more volts? Emotiva gear runs perfectly on 220/240 volts here in Oz and on a standard 15 amp circuit that gives us up to 3600 watts. I have a few friends in the US who have updated to 220/240 volts, but what's involved I don't know, possibly worth investigating. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Axis on Jan 8, 2017 15:08:07 GMT -5
Run two 20 amp circuits and you'll be fine. Rather than more amps what about more volts? Emotiva gear runs perfectly on 220/240 volts here in Oz and on a standard 15 amp circuit that gives us up to 3600 watts. I have a few friends in the US who have updated to 220/240 volts, but what's involved I don't know, possibly worth investigating. Cheers Gary Is the OP in OZ ? Often wondered what gear does with more volts. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 8, 2017 19:32:29 GMT -5
Rather than more amps what about more volts? Emotiva gear runs perfectly on 220/240 volts here in Oz and on a standard 15 amp circuit that gives us up to 3600 watts. I have a few friends in the US who have updated to 220/240 volts, but what's involved I don't know, possibly worth investigating. Is the OP in OZ ? Often wondered what gear does with more volts. With most Emotiva owners based in the US I assumed that the OP was based there. If he was based in say Europe or Australia then he wouldn't be asking about 2 X 20 amp circuits as with 220/240 volts he wouldn't need that many amps. Electronics gear is commonly rated for watts, which is volts X amps. That's watts consumed, since most electronics isn't 100% efficient that means less watts output in the case of, say, power amplifiers. More volts means less amps are required to achieve the same watts. For example an XPA-5 Gen1 would need around 1200 watts to produce its 200 X 5 output. At 110 volts that means around 11 amps are required. Whilst at 240 volts 5 amps is sufficient. My house is equiped with 5 X 240 volt 15 amp circuits with individual power outlets rated at 10 amps plus water heater and cooking circuits rated at 15 amps. I also have 2 X 20 amp circuits with individual power outlets rated at 20 amps, they are used for the air conditioning. I run my MIG welder from one of the 20 amp outlets. All of my Emotiva gear is OK to run on 110 or 220/240 volts, the gear equiped with SMPS automatically adjusts for the voltage supply, whilst the gear with linear power supplies generally have a switch that needs to be set for the appropriate voltage. Cheers Gary |
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Post by leonski on Jan 8, 2017 21:27:27 GMT -5
NO GEAR except a resistor is pure WATTS. ALL gear has what is called a power factor. This is ALWAYS higher than watts and represents the True Load.
It is expressed as VA
My So-Called 40 watt Fluorescent is 33 watts and 43 VA at turnon. 33/43 = 0.77 which is the power factor. As the tube warms, it gets better and
will top-out just over 0.8 PF.
Power company HATES power factor and if you use enough electricity (like a larger Factory) you may be charged a premium on your bill
PFC circuits exist which are Power Factor Correction to bring the apparent load more in line with pure resistive. Home owners don't need that stuff, mostly.
Your METER measures watts, so in effect a low PF installation is getting 'free power'.
Gary, I'm afraid I don't understand. You have OUTLETS rated at 10 amps on a 15 amp circuit. Is that OK?
Also, I have NEVER seen 110 at my house in SoCal. Right NOW, it is 119. In the US you have a continuous service DERATE of maybe 20%. So my 1800 watt circuit
of 120v x 15 amps is really somewhat LESS should I run it with max rated low. 1440 would be a good, continuous number.
During the worst case time of summer, I start shutting stuff off at about 115 or less, due to possible brownout.
The example XPA-5 is no more than 60% efficient from PLUG TO SPEAKER, probably somewhat less. The rest is HEAT.
At least for B&O, the only ones I have full specs for, the amp output with the SMPS is HIGHER at 220vac than at 110, even though the PS will 'self adjust' for any voltage
from maybe 90 to 240. Just another reason, IMO for me to skip stuff w/SMPS and 'D' amps in particular.
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Post by leonski on Jan 8, 2017 21:33:41 GMT -5
Run two 20 amp circuits and you'll be fine. I must respectfully DisAgree. The NAS storage ALONE should be on some kind up UPS to allow a stable shutdown in worst case scenario. The XPA-1? A 1200VA power transformer which will be QUITE the turn-on kick. OP has 3 of 'em. Other gear? The low current stuff is best served off a dedicated circuit with power conditioner / surge protection. Maybe even a whole-house surge protection scheme. I'm hoping the house has at least a 100 amp service. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 9, 2017 0:02:34 GMT -5
NO GEAR except a resistor is pure WATTS. ALL gear has what is called a power factor. This is ALWAYS higher than watts and represents the True Load. It is expressed as VA My So-Called 40 watt Fluorescent is 33 watts and 43 VA at turnon. 33/43 = 0.77 which is the power factor. As the tube warms, it gets better and will top-out just over 0.8 PF. Power company HATES power factor and if you use enough electricity (like a larger Factory) you may be charged a premium on your bill PFC circuits exist which are Power Factor Correction to bring the apparent load more in line with pure resistive. Home owners don't need that stuff, mostly. Your METER measures watts, so in effect a low PF installation is getting 'free power'. I was trying to keep it simple for the OP, the labelling on the rear of his XPA-1's shows watts, not VA. So it's easy for him to look at his equipment and add up the watts. Not so with VA. For completeness we do have an option of intelligent metering which allows for power factors, mostly only used in applications with solar power. They also have to measure the return to the network when more power is being generated from the solar panels than is being used, we get a credit for that equal to around 30% of the cost of electricity supplied by the power company. This is of course starting to cause issues with network loadings, a subject for another day. In Australia our general domestic power circuits are rated at 15 amps, for the whole circuit which may have up to 10 power outlets each. We have 3 levels of domestic power outlets, 10 amps, 15 amps and 20 amps. The 20 amp devices power cords have a different earth plug (wider and deeper) such that they won't fit into a 10 amp power outlet. Conversely a 10 amp or 15 amp power cord will fit a 20 amp outlet. In summary we have an overall circuit rating that is separate from the individual outlet rating, obviously we are not allowed to have a higher rated outlet than the circuit will accomodate i.e.; no 20 amp outlets on a 15 amp circuit. I live in an area with underground power and I'm quite close to the high tension power line supply and have local transformers. I did pick this area to live with underground cables in mind, it makes a huge difference to the reliability and stability of supply. It's a pretty rock sold 240 volts any time I have measured it. I do feel for you guys with only 110 volts to play with. We could debate efficiency all day, from memory Emotiva quote a maximum of 1500 watts on the XPA-1 power supply for 5 X 200 watts output, so that's 67% efficient. But I don't believe that I could sit in my room with an XPA-5 at full power, the result I'm sure would be temporary deafness. I haven't seen any quoted power differences for Emotiva gear, but at 240 volts and 15 amps I'm comfortable that my demands are being met. Cheers Gary |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jan 9, 2017 9:24:14 GMT -5
Run two 20 amp circuits and you'll be fine. I must respectfully DisAgree. What are you disagreeing with? All I am talking about is the circuit size, I said nothing about UPS nor any other peripheral and add-on equipment the user might choose to use. So I'm confused. |
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Post by mv on Jan 9, 2017 10:04:33 GMT -5
Buy a Kill-a-Watt and test it for yourself. It's a $20-30 investment that will always allow you to know the amp draw of your components.
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Post by leonski on Jan 9, 2017 22:03:21 GMT -5
I must respectfully DisAgree. What are you disagreeing with? All I am talking about is the circuit size, I said nothing about UPS nor any other peripheral and add-on equipment the user might choose to use. So I'm confused. I'm saying to get more than 2x20 amp dedicated circuits. The 3 XPA-1 amps alone have 3.6kva of transformer. The turn-on surge will be considerable, depending on any slow-start circuitry. ALL the low power stuff and the UPS for the 'server' should be on a dedicated line. A 3rd 20A should 'bout do it. Amps can divide up on the 2@20 circuits. |
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