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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 7, 2017 15:40:32 GMT -5
Yes, I could hear the differences too, but the question is "were they significant differences?" To you / Nick maybe. Not so much to me.
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Post by charlieeco on Feb 7, 2017 16:08:01 GMT -5
Why wouldn't I buy this? Let me count the ways... 1. It's black 2. The UDP-205 is coming soon that should have all the advantages of this item plus the ability to play 4K movies 3. There is no dedicated remote - the Oppo folks say that it's to be controlled via smartphone app, but they don't say whether the app will also run on tablets 4. If I need the smartphone app to run the device, then how will I simultaneously run my jRiver music server via its app? Do I need TWO smartphones? 5. It's black YMMV
some say !!! |
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hemster
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Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
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Post by hemster on Feb 7, 2017 16:11:55 GMT -5
OT post but I hope those of you in Louisiana are okay after 4 tornà does touched down this afternoon.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 7, 2017 16:21:15 GMT -5
Safe here, but I've not yet seen the news on how bad it was elsewhere...
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Feb 7, 2017 16:31:52 GMT -5
The Oppo 95, the Oppo 105, and the new Sonica DAC all share the same and type of DAC chip - ESS Sabre. While, in general, I would not suggest that other brands of DAC chips have brand-specific sound signatures, I would say that for Sabre DACs. I haven't heard the latest Sabre chip yet, but ALL products I've heard that were based on previous Sabre DAC chips DO share a specific sound signature. They tend to emphasize details slightly above what I would consider to be "uncolored and natural". (They sound like the treble is slightly boosted - even though measurements confirm that they are actually flat.) People who like them describe them as being "very detailed"; people who don't like them describe them as sounding "grainy" or "harsh". Obviously whether you like that sound or not will depend on personal preference, your musical tastes, and your associated equipment. I own the LH Labs and the Oppo 105. Each uses different versions of an ESS chip. Each sounds VERY different from each other, IMHO. Different enough that I never use analog out from my 105 to my system because I don't like it. I very much prefer the DC-1 over the 105's execution of an ESS Chip for the reasons you state in general about ESS Sabre DAC's. To the contrary, I have been using the LH Labs DAC for a while now, and I think it results in the clearest, most detailed, and non-grainy/non-harsh sound I have ever heard in my system. And, it has an ESS DAC chip in it. Sadly, my LH Labs has an issue right now and I am awaiting support for it, so I switched back to my DC-1. And, as much as I liked my DC-1, the deprivation of not hearing the LH Labs has resulted in me listening less than I was before. Also, the LH Labs has 4 different filters one can choose, and it is quite clear that the filter choice makes a difference. I like all 4 available filters better than my Oppo 105 or DC-1. They are each different in their sound, but all are quite good. Net, whether all ESS Chips are created equal or not, I will say - different implementations of them can sound very different. YMMV... Mark |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 7, 2017 16:40:29 GMT -5
The filters definitely make a difference - sometimes major. I believe the older Sabre DACs have a single filter built in - but can be used with external filters. (The new one has "8 preset and programmable filter types" built in.) Also, while some individual DAC chips have a distinctive sound, the external cicruitry associated with them also has a major effect on how they sound. (I've personally never heard the LH Labs DAC.) The Oppo 95, the Oppo 105, and the new Sonica DAC all share the same and type of DAC chip - ESS Sabre. While, in general, I would not suggest that other brands of DAC chips have brand-specific sound signatures, I would say that for Sabre DACs. I haven't heard the latest Sabre chip yet, but ALL products I've heard that were based on previous Sabre DAC chips DO share a specific sound signature. They tend to emphasize details slightly above what I would consider to be "uncolored and natural". (They sound like the treble is slightly boosted - even though measurements confirm that they are actually flat.) People who like them describe them as being "very detailed"; people who don't like them describe them as sounding "grainy" or "harsh". Obviously whether you like that sound or not will depend on personal preference, your musical tastes, and your associated equipment. I own the LH Labs and the Oppo 105. Each uses different versions of an ESS chip. Each sounds VERY different from each other, IMHO. Different enough that I never use analog out from my 105 to my system because I don't like it. I very much prefer the DC-1 over the 105's execution of an ESS Chip for the reasons you state in general about ESS Sabre DAC's. To the contrary, I have been using the LH Labs DAC for a while now, and I think it results in the clearest, most detailed, and non-grainy/non-harsh sound I have ever heard in my system. And, it has an ESS DAC chip in it. Sadly, my LH Labs has an issue right now and I am awaiting support for it, so I switched back to my DC-1. And, as much as I liked my DC-1, the deprivation of not hearing the LH Labs has resulted in me listening less than I was before. Also, the LH Labs has 4 different filters one can choose, and it is quite clear that the filter choice makes a difference. I like all 4 available filters better than my Oppo 105 or DC-1. They are each different in their sound, but all are quite good. Net, whether all ESS Chips are created equal or not, I will say - different implementations of them can sound very different. YMMV... Mark |
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Post by mountain on Feb 7, 2017 16:42:26 GMT -5
In my system, house, and ears:
ESS Sabre is just alright with me
ESS Sabre is just alright, oh yea
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 7, 2017 16:44:32 GMT -5
Your experience would seem to suggest audible differences in the analog section. I might also suggest that the sound signature of the tube amps is slanting everything towards sounding smoother. (This is the sort of coloration that good tube amps are known for.) It is certainly not surprising that certain output buffers would sound very different into low and high impedance loads. The Oppo 95, the Oppo 105, and the new Sonica DAC all share the same BRAND and type of DAC chip - ESS Sabre. ( NOT the Oppo 93, Oppo 103, or Oppo 203 - which use more neutral DAC chips.) While, in general, I would not suggest that other brands of DAC chips have brand-specific sound signatures, I would say that for Sabre DACs. I haven't heard the latest Sabre chip yet, but ALL products I've heard that were based on previous Sabre DAC chips DO share a specific sound signature. They tend to emphasize details slightly above what I would consider to be "uncolored and natural". (They sound like the treble is slightly boosted - even though measurements confirm that they are actually flat.) People who like them describe them as being "very detailed"; people who don't like them describe them as sounding "grainy" or "harsh". Obviously whether you like that sound or not will depend on personal preference, your musical tastes, and your associated equipment. Mr. L has expressed his opinion succinctly. I, for one, partially, but only partially, disagree. The DAC in my Oppo BDP-105 has, indeed, sounded "grainy or harsh" but ONLY when being used as a variable-volume preamp-DAC combo. And even then, any harshness evident with lower-input-impedance power amplifiers goes away completely when driving high-input-impedance tube amps. Which brings up the question, is it the Sabre DAC or the Oppo's output buffer amps that create the (slight) harshness? The impedance that the device must play into seems to have more audible effect than the DAC itself: Typical solid state power amplifier input impedance = between 5,000 and 10,000 ohms Typical preamplifier input impedance = 47,000 ohms Typical tube power amplifier input impedance = 300,000 ohms When my Oppo is used at full volume and plugged into a line-level preamplifier, I find NO harshness whatsoever. That's my opinion... I agree that most every DAC on the market measures as flat as a pancake (everything from $14 Behringers to multi-thousand-dollar flagships). Yet they DO sound differently. Why? Mr. L has given cogent explanations in previous threads, so I won't repeat them, but there ARE logical explanations - this isn't audio voodoo. I've listened to some of the best DACs and compared them directly to the Emotiva Stealth DC-1 and to the DAC in the Emotiva PT-100. To my ears, there was no more difference that if I'd swapped speaker cables - In other words, not enough to spend any significant money on, if even that. So my future philosophy on DACs is "don't worry, be happy!" The differences available at any price don't seem (to my ears) to be worth bothering with. The only possible exception may be in DACs that use specific encoding-decoding algorithms to compensate for the digital damage done in the A-D and D-A conversions of the original analog signal. To date, only the MQA system claims to offer these theoretical advantages. That said, I've never heard MQA, but would like to. I'll reserve judgement until I do. So for my ears, the Sabre DACs are no better (and no worse) than any other DAC. If you hear differences, then choose the DAC that sounds most accurate to your own ears. To mine, DAC differences are so vanishingly small that I don't consider them worth worrying about. Boomzilla |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Feb 7, 2017 17:10:15 GMT -5
(I've personally never heard the LH Labs DAC.) You should.  It is pretty special, IMHO. Mark |
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Post by badronald on Feb 7, 2017 17:16:55 GMT -5
"I'm not digging the fact that it has a switching PS in the box" - Really? It has a huge torroidal transformer, that spells linear to me! Take a closer look. I design printed circuit boards for a living, so you could say I'm an expert on this sort of thing. There is a switching PS that powers the "front end". Then the torroidal "ALSO" taps off the incoming AC and feed the "back end" analog. |
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Post by badronald on Feb 7, 2017 17:18:33 GMT -5
I'm not digging the fact that it has a switching PS in the box. I got mine last week, and have burned it in for about 100 hrs. So far my first impressions are not good. My $600 Audio GD nfb-1.32 blows it away in transparency, soundstage and smoothness. I really want to like this dac with its streaming capabilities, but so far, not liking what I'm hearing and may send it back next week. Are you using a dedicated preamp or the volume control from the oppo? Dedicated preamp |
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Post by brutiarti on Feb 7, 2017 18:36:41 GMT -5
Out of the box, the sonica sounds really good. Definitly better 3d presentation than the 105. The 105 is louder so the sonica can be perceived less dynamic. First impression of the sonica in one word would be more coherent than the 105
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 7, 2017 20:04:34 GMT -5
"I'm not digging the fact that it has a switching PS in the box" - Really? It has a huge torroidal transformer, that spells linear to me! Take a closer look. I design printed circuit boards for a living, so you could say I'm an expert on this sort of thing. There is a switching PS that powers the "front end". Then the torroidal "ALSO" taps off the incoming AC and feed the "back end" analog. There's a small PWM dimmer circuit for the display. If that bothers you, it can be turned off. The significant power supplies (5 in total to support the Sabre DAC) all come off of torroidal taps and they are all linear in nature. |
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Post by badronald on Feb 7, 2017 23:45:19 GMT -5
Take a closer look. I design printed circuit boards for a living, so you could say I'm an expert on this sort of thing. There is a switching PS that powers the "front end". Then the torroidal "ALSO" taps off the incoming AC and feed the "back end" analog. There's a small PWM dimmer circuit for the display. If that bothers you, it can be turned off. The significant power supplies (5 in total to support the Sabre DAC) all come off of torroidal taps and they are all linear in nature. There is a switching PS on the lower left of the picture that powers the front end. It's the area with the white fence around it. I never said that it powers the dac chip. My original point i was trying to get across is a switching supply just being inside the box will generate noise and most audiopliles including me would not prefer any switching supply inside audio equipment. You can have the cleanest linear supply in the world feeding the dac and analog output circuits, but what good will it be if the switcher is inducing noise into other circuits. I'm not saying that is the case with the sonica, but I would prefer no switcher inside, especially since I'm not total happy with the sound of this Dac. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 8, 2017 8:14:51 GMT -5
There's a small PWM dimmer circuit for the display. If that bothers you, it can be turned off. The significant power supplies (5 in total to support the Sabre DAC) all come off of torroidal taps and they are all linear in nature. There is a switching PS on the lower left of the picture that powers the front end. It's the area with the white fence around it. I never said that it powers the dac chip. My original point i was trying to get across is a switching supply just being inside the box will generate noise and most audiopliles including me would not prefer any switching supply inside audio equipment. You can have the cleanest linear supply in the world feeding the dac and analog output circuits, but what good will it be if the switcher is inducing noise into other circuits. I'm not saying that is the case with the sonica, but I would prefer no switcher inside, especially since I'm not total happy with the sound of this Dac. So basically, even though this is a low voltage pwm circuit and thus low energy, you want a component with no display at all. Good luck with that especially with such a complex device as a steamer product! You do realize that the display can be turned off while you are listening to the DAC and all information needed is on the IOS device? |
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Post by badronald on Feb 8, 2017 9:11:46 GMT -5
There is a switching PS on the lower left of the picture that powers the front end. It's the area with the white fence around it. I never said that it powers the dac chip. My original point i was trying to get across is a switching supply just being inside the box will generate noise and most audiopliles including me would not prefer any switching supply inside audio equipment. You can have the cleanest linear supply in the world feeding the dac and analog output circuits, but what good will it be if the switcher is inducing noise into other circuits. I'm not saying that is the case with the sonica, but I would prefer no switcher inside, especially since I'm not total happy with the sound of this Dac. So basically, even though this is a low voltage pwm circuit and thus low energy, you want a component with no display at all. Good luck with that especially with such a complex device as a steamer product! You do realize that the display can be turned off while you are listening to the DAC and all information needed is on the IOS device? Apparently you are the expert. The voltage is not what worries me or the display. I can give to rats about the display, all I care about is the sound. What worries me is the switching noise, not the voltage. I will be purchasing a Audio GD NFB-7 and this will be going back to Oppo. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 8, 2017 9:32:16 GMT -5
I really doubt that how it sounds (if you don't like it) has much to do with switching noise. ALL power supplies are subject to noise. Switching supplies CAN make noise at the frequency they switch at, or related frequencies. Linear power supplies CAN pass noise at the 60 Hz line frequency or multiples of it. And any regulator whatsoever DOES produce some minor amount of noise (random noise - just like the low level hiss in a power amp). However, with any power supply, if it's properly designed, the noise should be inaudible. (And a modern switching supply should operate at above-audible frequencies; so, even if it did make noise, only your dog, or perhaps a bat, will hear it.) I would also remind everyone that a streamer is basically a computer. This means that there's all sorts of digital processing going on inside it in order for it to work. (So, even if you disable the display, MOST of the digital circuitry inside must still be running or it wouldn't work.) So basically, even though this is a low voltage pwm circuit and thus low energy, you want a component with no display at all. Good luck with that especially with such a complex device as a steamer product! You do realize that the display can be turned off while you are listening to the DAC and all information needed is on the IOS device? Apparently you are the expert. The voltage is not what worries me or the display. I can give to rats about the display, all I care about is the sound. What worries me is the switching noise, not the voltage. I will be purchasing a Audio GD NFB-7 and this will be going back to Oppo. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 8, 2017 9:47:06 GMT -5
So basically, even though this is a low voltage pwm circuit and thus low energy, you want a component with no display at all. Good luck with that especially with such a complex device as a steamer product! You do realize that the display can be turned off while you are listening to the DAC and all information needed is on the IOS device? Apparently you are the expert. The voltage is not what worries me or the display. I can give to rats about the display, all I care about is the sound. What worries me is the switching noise, not the voltage. I will be purchasing a Audio GD NFB-7 and this will be going back to Oppo. So why did you buy a streamer/DAC when you just want a DAC? |
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Post by vcautokid on Feb 8, 2017 9:49:16 GMT -5
Yep well said Keith. Allot of Digital Soup being mixed in there. So the more you can isolate it, the better. As for Switch Mode Power Supplies, I thought, and yeah that's dangerous, that most of the noise should be outside of the audible bandpass. No?? Like I said I am dangerous when the Thought Switch gets flipped.  |
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Post by brutiarti on Feb 8, 2017 9:56:35 GMT -5
I will be purchasing a Audio GD NFB-7 and this will be going back to Oppo. I doubt that another sabre dac will bring you anything new to the table. I will try something different. |
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