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Post by Jacob A on Feb 19, 2017 3:51:53 GMT -5
I've noticed the death of High End audio processors has been in the reliance of chip sets that meet their demands. B&K went out of business and at one time they were a massive player in the high end market. NAD survived via MDC (something the CMC 1 is copying).
However while Emotive and NAD appear to be the only high end companies left trying to bring solutions to our ears without repeatedly asking us to fork over new processor money, it's another company that intrigues me:
Trinnov.
I've heard the Altitude hooked up in multiple different Atmos, DTS-D, and Auro3D arrangements (Auro3D btw is hands down better sadly I only saw Pixels with it). It's a $20K solution. It's currently the best sounding processor I've ever heard for home use.
The Altitude doesn't rely on chipsets. Instead it's a giant Linux PC that decodes the codecs instead of relying on a chipset.
It's been proven to work, so I wonder if Emotiva could consider that route. It again allows upgrades to be software based still have modular updates for HDMI, etc. With all the companies that have been slammed waiting for another company to get them a chipset this just seams like a logical answer.
Thoughts?
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Post by Jim on Feb 19, 2017 6:24:14 GMT -5
I've heard a lot of good things about the Trinnov Altitude and the flexibility that comes from "the ground up" design.
Unfortunately, I suspect that quite a bit of the $20k cost is due to R&D.
The development costs for a niche product like that (that can't reuse modular cards with their existing software subsystems) must be huge.
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Post by cwt on Feb 19, 2017 11:08:52 GMT -5
The Altitude doesn't rely on chipsets. Instead it's a giant Linux PC that decodes the codecs instead of relying on a chipset. It's been proven to work, so I wonder if Emotiva could consider that route. It again allows upgrades to be software based still have modular updates for HDMI, etc. With all the companies that have been slammed waiting for another company to get them a chipset this just seams like a logical answer. Thoughts? Just to emphasise the costs of that route ; the new altitude 16 has apparently foregone everything but software upgrades to get the price down ; this following is very preliminary though  www.avforums.com/threads/trinnov-altitude-16.2081904/#post-24729566Needless to say the RMC1 is modular at least as Jim said . |
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 19, 2017 12:27:31 GMT -5
Obsolescence, not "chipsets" was the catalyst for the decline in the field.
20 grand?? No one kicked that one in the ass better than Emotiva with the reality of the XMC1.
By the way, the competitors are coming back now that HDMI is well established (unfortunately) and the fomat field is stable at the moment.
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Post by Jacob A on Feb 20, 2017 2:27:23 GMT -5
The Altitude doesn't rely on chipsets. Instead it's a giant Linux PC that decodes the codecs instead of relying on a chipset. It's been proven to work, so I wonder if Emotiva could consider that route. It again allows upgrades to be software based still have modular updates for HDMI, etc. With all the companies that have been slammed waiting for another company to get them a chipset this just seams like a logical answer. Thoughts? Just to emphasise the costs of that route ; the new altitude 16 has apparently foregone everything but software upgrades to get the price down ; this following is very preliminary though www.avforums.com/threads/trinnov-altitude-16.2081904/#post-24729566Needless to say the RMC1 is modular at least as Jim said . I saw the unit at ISE. The Altitude16 lacks the modular nature of the 32, and is down to an almost agreeable price point. Still it's built in France and it can be built for less in the USA. I'm more impressed with the lack of chipsets. My question remains could Emotiva go down the same road, and possibly offer something in the $3k range? You have to remember Trinnov prices are high and they sell hundreds of the unit, not thousands like Emotiva would. I just wonder if Emotiva thought about it. |
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Post by Jacob A on Feb 20, 2017 2:38:44 GMT -5
Obsolescence, not "chipsets" was the catalyst for the decline in the field. 20 grand?? No one kicked that one in the ass better than Emotiva with the reality of the XMC1. By the way, the competitors are coming back now that HDMI is well established (unfortunately) and the fomat field is stable at the moment. If the chipsets had been available they wouldn't have been obsolete! The XMC1 isn't even in the same ball park or even state as the Altitude32, the XMC1 is a great unit but it's not handling 32 channels, and even 2 channel the SQ isn't close. However $20k vs $1.5k all I have to say is it's not supposed to. The competition is still not back, and HDMI has nothing to do with it. It's chipsets for Atmos that aren't available yet. You really think the Emersa line, the lack of an Outlaw processor, etc. haven't been delayed due to chip sets? Seeing as how Emotiva has felt the repercussions (and Sage before that) of relying on others, I wanted to hear their opinion on this particular route. |
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 20, 2017 9:27:59 GMT -5
Obsolescence, not "chipsets" was the catalyst for the decline in the field. 20 grand?? No one kicked that one in the ass better than Emotiva with the reality of the XMC1. By the way, the competitors are coming back now that HDMI is well established (unfortunately) and the fomat field is stable at the moment. "the XMC1 is a great unit but it's not handling 32 channels, and even 2 channel the SQ isn't close. However $20k vs $1.5k all I have to say is it's not supposed to." I have not heard about the independent A/B tests that confirm how poor the sound quality of the XMC-1 is in two channel, compared to the Altitude. Can you confirm this or direct us to those page results? But you are saying it has to be twenty thousand dollars in order to sound better, am I hearing you correctly?? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 20, 2017 10:23:13 GMT -5
Well, if you really want 32 channels, perhaps you should just consider the Dolby Atmos Cinema Decoder (since you're getting up into that price range). However, I'd also be curious about who is claiming that either one sounds better than the XMC-1. "the XMC1 is a great unit but it's not handling 32 channels, and even 2 channel the SQ isn't close. However $20k vs $1.5k all I have to say is it's not supposed to." I have not heard about the independent A/B tests that confirm how poor the sound quality of the XMC-1 is in two channel, compared to the Altitude. Can you confirm this or direct us to those page results? But you are saying it has to be twenty thousand dollars in order to sound better, am I hearing you correctly?? |
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Post by leonski on Feb 22, 2017 23:11:39 GMT -5
I'm NOT HT literate, but it sure seems like a lot of cash for that Trinnov. For 20 large? I could get a World Class stereo for that kind of coin.
A pair of 3.7i Maggies and a pair of Class 'A' Pass Labs monoblocks.
And the space between that and 'doable' is huge.
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Post by cwt on Feb 23, 2017 5:48:47 GMT -5
I saw the unit at ISE. The Altitude16 lacks the modular nature of the 32, and is down to an almost agreeable price point. Still it's built in France and it can be built for less in the USA. I'm more impressed with the lack of chipsets. My question remains could Emotiva go down the same road, and possibly offer something in the $3k range? You have to remember Trinnov prices are high and they sell hundreds of the unit, not thousands like Emotiva would. I just wonder if Emotiva thought about it. The altitudes have very extensive setup protocols built into the price too for pro installers [ could that go too and would it cheapen the brand name?] and if software only upgrades still means whats mentioned on the alt 32 website ; " Software-oriented updates are provided over internet, no DSP upgrade required." that would be a plus .On the other hand no hardware upgrades isn't good though with hdmi changing regularly.. Any new codecs downloaded in these price regions tend to be not so cheap as well. Emo's downloads have been a relative bargain Something also tells me the alt 16 will not have fully differential circuitry input to output like the RMC1 [since were speculating on something probably a year away ] |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 10:22:22 GMT -5
Well, if you really want 32 channels, perhaps you should just consider the Dolby Atmos Cinema Decoder (since you're getting up into that price range). However, I'd also be curious about who is claiming that either one sounds better than the XMC-1. The XMC-1 sounds superb, fantastic, wonderful, but there are those people out there who will still deny that to the ends of the earth to justify their purchase of a (MUCH) more expensive component, or because they can't reconcile the high performance of the XMC-1 with their low expectations for the price point - there just HAS to be something not quite right about it for that money, right? Or, because in their minds the XMC-1 doesn't cost nearly enough to earn it entry into the pantheon of "high-end" products. So that is something that we'll always be fighting against, but for informed customers looking to make the best use of their money we are still the only choice that makes sense. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 23, 2017 11:33:51 GMT -5
Hi end companies like Trinnov exist for a handful of customers who are so wealthy they can ignore cost as a criteria. Their market is extremely limited and thus the price is elevated even further. Their most important roll is as adventurous pioneers whose technology may be one day be cost engineered and made available to the masses. It is futile to compare an Emotiva product with those from such limited production companies, who really aren't companies in the normal competitive definition, in fact the well heeled owners of such companies may not even view profit as its end game.
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 23, 2017 13:08:23 GMT -5
Hi end companies like Trinnov exist for a handful of customers who are so wealthy they can ignore cost as a criteria. Their market is extremely limited and thus the price is elevated even further. Their most important roll is as adventurous pioneers whose technology may be one day be cost engineered and made available to the masses. It is futile to compare an Emotiva product with those from such limited production companies, who really aren't companies in the normal competitive definition, in fact the well heeled owners of such companies may not even view profit as its end game. They should call them CLUBS instead of companies Bill |
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Post by leonski on Feb 23, 2017 14:43:17 GMT -5
mgbpuff ? There is a NAME for companies that don't make a profit. It's called 'out of business'. I have no idea of the attrition rate of hi-fi oriented companies. Or the average amount of time they ARE in business. I suspect something like for every company surviving to its Fifth Birthday, you've got a dozen in the gutter. The other 'exit strategy is the Sale to something like 'The Harman Luxury Audio Group' which is an umbrella organization for many companies whose names we'd all recognize. www.harmanluxuryaudio.comEven Mcintosh has been sold / acquired a couple times in the last decade or so. And mercifully not messed with too much. |
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Post by Jim on Feb 23, 2017 15:45:34 GMT -5
mgbpuff ? There is a NAME for companies that don't make a profit. It's called 'out of business'. I have no idea of the attrition rate of hi-fi oriented companies. Or the average amount of time they ARE in business. I suspect something like for every company surviving to its Fifth Birthday, you've got a dozen in the gutter. The other 'exit strategy is the Sale to something like 'The Harman Luxury Audio Group' which is an umbrella organization for many companies whose names we'd all recognize. www.harmanluxuryaudio.comEven Mcintosh has been sold / acquired a couple times in the last decade or so. And mercifully not messed with too much. And yet Trinnov still exists. Even with numbers like ~500 Altitude 32s sold. Sure they make a profit... but I agree with mgbpuffs other comments... |
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Post by leonski on Feb 23, 2017 20:01:50 GMT -5
Part of the price of a Ferrari Product like the Trinnov is the few they actually make.
I don't know how this business model works long-term, but EMO succeeds in a very competitive space by :: Value, volume, Service.
The Trinnov website says 'Since 2003' which is pretty good. But I also see they are into many parts of audio including 'pro level'.
I'd be curious how many and for how Long they make The Altitude model and the penetration into pro VS home markets.
Depending on cash reserves and depth of pocket, I'll stand by the idea that a company must make money to 'stay in business'.
Otherwise it's a Charity. Even 'non-profits' must have what amounts to a positive cash flow though rules make other dictates.
Just ask the NFL about THAT.
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