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Post by leonski on Apr 9, 2017 0:44:44 GMT -5
Is any heat sink compound supplied or do you install such compound between the case and the amp module?
I'm always concerned with 'D' amps and heat dissipation. Some 'D' amps I've spec'd out have severe time limits at max power due to either output zobel or simply not enough heat capacity.
XLR should not be a real problem. I think instructions are provided to convert to single ended?
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 9, 2017 2:28:11 GMT -5
The instructions don't call for Heat Sink Compound but I certainly thought about it as we were assembling them yesterday. I mentioned it to my friend Bill but we didn't have any with us at the time. He'll never run them heavy because of his apartment, but I'll mention it again. It would be pretty easy to open them up and apply Heat Sink Compound between the Amplifier Module and the Aluminum Case.
Casey
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Post by leonski on Apr 9, 2017 15:25:41 GMT -5
yes, The last PC I assembled was modified by me. I junked out the marginal heatsink and installed another with an aggressive fan.
I applied a small bit of Artic Silver and drug it out thin with a razor blade. When I clamped the heat sink down? A real nice but tiny
fillet of compound evenly around the edge. NICE.
I'd take a few minutes to LAP the amp module for flatness, maybe, using 400 or 600 (depending on finish of sink now) than check the case for flatness.
That kind of detail would pay for itself with my low-sensitivity panels. To get 'em loud requires a lot of power.
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Post by crummwoody on Apr 11, 2017 16:36:07 GMT -5
RE: Hypex NC400 mono kits.
I assembled two of them about a year ago. Best power amps I've has the privilege of listening to. Amazing grip on bass, just right midrange
and very smooth highs. Non fatiguing, loads of detail and soundstage. I had dozens of amps through here, and these are the top dog. I could go on, but...
A couple of cautions: Hypex recommends plugging direct into house main outlet, without any power conditioning. Therefore, I unplug the amps
from the outlet when there is any lightning in the area.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 11, 2017 17:35:56 GMT -5
Huh, I never saw that recommendation. Where'd you see that?
But I've seen lots of Amplifier makers say the same thing — including people from Emotiva — on the grounds that A. the amplifiers already have Power Regulation, and B. Power Conditioners can limit Peak Current to the detriment of the Amplifier hitting Peak Demand ...
Now I'm just trying to figure out how Solid State electronics can ever "break in" as so many people argue for. But I think that'll be a different Keith's Corner thread ...
Casey
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Post by copperpipe on Apr 11, 2017 17:59:56 GMT -5
Huh, I never saw that recommendation. Where'd you see that? But I've seen lots of Amplifier makers say the same thing on — including people from Emotiva — on the grounds that A. the amplifiers already have Power Regulation, and B. Power Conditioners can limit Peak Current to the detriment of the Amplifier hitting Peak Demand ... Now I'm just trying to figure out how Solid State electronics can ever "break in" as so many people argue for. But I think that'll be a different Keith's Corner thread ... Casey Solid state electronic's don't break in  There is not a single engineer who is making that claim, those claims come from "golden ears" only. Once a SS amp/pre is powered on and reaches it's normal temperature range, it's done. It will sound no different after a few hours of being powered on versus being power on > a week. Those claims remind me of a little old lady I once knew, and her slow computer; she would bang her mouse up and down a few times on the desk when the computer was taking too long and I asked her why she did that. Her answer was that the computer could tell she was frustrated and worked harder (or something to that effect). I didn't bother correcting her (there is no gyro or impact sensor in the mouse to register her banging away, and even if there was, adding new events for the computer to process would just slow it down even more), because in her mind it was helping. If you don't understand how something works, then you can fall victim to confirmation bias very quickly. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 11, 2017 18:49:10 GMT -5
Yes, I agree regarding "breaking in solid state electronics ". I'm just looking for one of those "Golden Ear" folks to offer even an implausible defense of this idea. Maybe I just need an amusing diversion since I'm not drinking anymore ...
Casey
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 11, 2017 19:09:45 GMT -5
So are these things already built? Looking at the kits it should take like no more than 5 minutes...  |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 11, 2017 21:17:50 GMT -5
A little longer than that ... :-)
I think that if you were doing them repeatedly you could get the assembly time down to something on the order of 15 minutes. But I would add a few minutes to apply Heat Sink Paste between the Amplifier Module and the case and to tin the end of the internal Speaker Cables with a bit of Solder.
Casey
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 11, 2017 22:18:47 GMT -5
So back to the main topic here (I've started a separate thread to discuss the idea of Solid State Electronics "break in"). One thing I've noticed in discussions of the Hypex NCore NC500 and NC1200 is the feature that they have the flexibility to have their "Input Buffers" swapped out. And then just this morning, Boomzilla offered a wonderful comment on the issues of hooking a DAC directly up to an Amplifier where he mentioned the DAC's "Output Buffer" and it's ability to drive the input of the Amplifier. When people talk about Input and Output Buffers, are they referring to the concepts in this Wikipedia page on Buffer amplifier? Casey |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 12, 2017 0:43:22 GMT -5
Yes, although we're now getting arcane enough that Mr. Levkof might want to chime in.
One other comment on heat sinking - Are the transistor modules and the case made of identical materials? If not, you're going to be prone to galvanic corrosion, which has the potential to prevent ANY heat-sinking.
Also, Lyngdorf uses a variant of Class-D but they claim "not exactly..." Any ideas on that?
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Post by crummwoody on Apr 12, 2017 6:56:45 GMT -5
Recommendation of not using power conditioners came from a review, and was confirmed by email communication
with HYPEX. And yes, current limiting was the rationale.
Assembly would take less and less time as one became accustomed to process. I took a lot of time to put them
together, making certain (again and again) that I did it correctly. Like the old saying-- measure twice, cut once.
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 12, 2017 7:30:24 GMT -5
Lyngdorf (using a variant of Class D PWM technology) also claims that no power conditioner is necessary, although they don't mention why.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 12, 2017 11:47:39 GMT -5
Yes, although we're now getting arcane enough that Mr. Levkof might want to chime in. I love it when Keith or Lonnie comment: I always learn so much. One other comment on heat sinking - Are the transistor modules and the case made of identical materials? If not, you're going to be prone to galvanic corrosion, which has the potential to prevent ANY heat-sinking.[/quote] In the case of the Hypex NC400 Monoblock kit, both the Amplifier Module base plate and the case are made of aluminum. So I think we're safe there. But even with two flat surfaces and four screws holding the base plate to the case, I doubt if we're getting "perfect" contact between the two. And that's what Heat Sink Paste is for. And yes, I am thinking of buying a pair of these for myself now that we've "built" (ne "assembled") a pair for my friend. But I still want to see what the new XPA Gen3 Double-Wide modules bring to the table before committing any more money. I'd never even heard of them. (Not surprising since I've only recently gotten back into following the audio world.) Weird that the Lyngdorf Amplifier takes digital Inputs. It almost sounds like the recent Classé Amplifiers which convert their Analog Inputs into digital and use that to directly control the Pulse Width Modulation of the Amplifier. Casey |
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Post by leonski on Apr 12, 2017 14:20:34 GMT -5
Solid State devices DO break in and AGE. The process of reaching designed performance is Very Brief. That's why SS devices undergo LIFETIME testing of say, 1000 hour burn-in prior to the device being released to production.
Long term aging of SS devices is generally confined to what is called 'ElectroMigration'. The electrical interconnnects of the device can be call upon to carry lots of curret or even for low current devices, a fairly high current DENSITY. The metal SAGS in the direction of current flow. It 'Migrates'. When such conductors go over a 'step', or change in height on the device the metal gets thin as a result of the means used to deposit the metal on the device. Those thinner spots have even Higher current density and will be the first place to 'fuse'.
That's gonna take a LONG time.
The other source of potential break in for ALL amplifiers and speakers is Capacitor Forming. This is also a known Phenom and as in SS devices, doesn't take all that long, maybe a few hours at most. I had that happen with my NIB (New In Box) Magnepans where when being first listened to I thought they were defective. Image jumped back and forth a lot. There were even a few 'cutouts' where I thought I'd damaged something. But it went away and has NEVER recurred. Integrated Circuits have capacitors on chip and are subject to the same limits and rules. But they are all so small / lower voltage, usually, that I don't see that being an issue.
As for Power conditioners and amps? I gave that up a long time ago for reason. I thought most amps simply sounded LifeLess thru such devices. Peak Current? Could Be.
The only exception? My CARVER CUBE which you'd think would have current limiting in spades. After all, the amp hardly stores any energy and basically turned the power line on/off in time to the music.
I could DIM the house lights with that bad boy. OH! The amp had a 15 amp FUSE, which for a 200x2 amp, is quite a lot.
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Post by leonski on Apr 12, 2017 14:23:52 GMT -5
Could someone post a GOOD and CLOSE photo of the mounting surface of the NCore Module?
I want to see what the surface finish looks like as-issued.
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 12, 2017 15:09:20 GMT -5
So where are the pics?
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 12, 2017 15:16:14 GMT -5
leonski, I started a thread dedicated to the issues of Solid State Electronics "break in" here. pedrocols, I got some unboxing pictures but I failed to take any assembly pictures. I can certainly post the unboxing pictures if you're interested. I also have a couple of pictures of the Amplifiers in place at my friend Bill's house if you like. Let me know if you'd like me to post those. (Sorry leonski, I didn't get any close up pictures of the bottom of the Amplifier Module.) Casey
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 12, 2017 15:23:00 GMT -5
If there is no pics it didn't happen...😎
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 12, 2017 15:23:43 GMT -5
Okay, I'll figure out how to add photos tonight when I get home.
Casey
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There is not a single engineer who is making that claim, those claims come from "golden ears" only. Once a SS amp/pre is powered on and reaches it's normal temperature range, it's done. It will sound no different after a few hours of being powered on versus being power on > a week.
