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Post by mgbpuff on Apr 12, 2017 15:28:55 GMT -5
On solid state electronics break in - I think the reason for a burn in of components before shipment is to raise the overall quality by catching incipient early failures. Once past a given power run, the MTF (mean time to failure) of the passing units is significantly extended.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 12, 2017 17:23:35 GMT -5
Yes, I totally agree with catching "Infant Mortality" issues within the Manufacturer's Quality Assurance Process. Turn the equipment on and run it through a moderate full sweep of usage.
All it takes is a single defective component or solder joint to make hash of a perfectly good design. It's a trade off of course on the Manufacturer's side because this costs them money (time/people/resources) but saves them a lot in terms of Customer Satisfaction and costs for returning/exchanging defective equipment which makes it out of the factory.
So "moderate" is often something that gets debated ...
Casey
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Post by leonski on Apr 12, 2017 22:34:00 GMT -5
On solid state electronics break in - I think the reason for a burn in of components before shipment is to raise the overall quality by catching incipient early failures. Once past a given power run, the MTF (mean time to failure) of the passing units is significantly extended. Works for Bryston. And you pay for it, while getting a huge warranty, at least on the amplifiers. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Apr 13, 2017 6:42:13 GMT -5
The time can be reduced by using temperature controlled rooms (we used to call ours 'the oven') where ambient temperatures are raised to spec limits. It adds cost, of course, but nothing like what Bryston charges. There you are paying for the warranty, period (plus maybe the overcharge that defines the elitism of brand).
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 13, 2017 8:18:20 GMT -5
it was amazing to hear the amount of power coming out of those tiny amplifier modules. We played through a selection of various bass-heavy tracks, piano, horn, rock, voice, etc. Very tight bass, good sound stage, clear definition, etc. Switching back to the MPS-1 we were both amazed to realize that there was a difference. Any difference. We've both been thinking that there really shouldn't be much if any difference between two well-executed solid state amplifiers. But there was some. We only did the switch over once with an hour between listening sessions[1], so getting a clear description is hard. That said, we both thought that the NC400 had a "punchier bass" and more "detailed/analytic sound". ... But I can say that the Hypex NC400 Monoblock Kits are real, fun, and very good. I don't think anyone would be unhappy picking up a pair. Heck, you could get 7 and stack them up for a multichannel system since they dissipate so little heat!  Glad the build went well...it is very easy, indeed. And, you are right - for something so tiny in terms of the working parts, they really punch well with solid bass. I actually considered building a 5 channel version to replace my XPA-5, but I didn't figure it would really be worth the expense for surrounds. For center - it is tempting. If I were starting from scratch and didn't have an XPA-5, I'd strongly consider it. I am interested to see what the Emersa Class D's offer...assuming they continue their plans for Emersa. Mark |
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Post by Lonnie on Apr 13, 2017 9:18:20 GMT -5
Huh, I never saw that recommendation. Where'd you see that? But I've seen lots of Amplifier makers say the same thing — including people from Emotiva — on the grounds that A. the amplifiers already have Power Regulation, and B. Power Conditioners can limit Peak Current to the detriment of the Amplifier hitting Peak Demand ... Now I'm just trying to figure out how Solid State electronics can ever "break in" as so many people argue for. But I think that'll be a different Keith's Corner thread ... Casey I highly recommend that the amplifiers themselves be plugged directly into the wall. There are a number of reasons for this, but you stated the tow most important. Electronics in general do not need a break in period, like the older Tube gear did. If it comes from us, we burn them in here, which is a 24 hour heat soak. This is done to ensure that everything meets passes a full spectrum of test before and after the soak. If it stands up to a 24 soak, then we have a very high degree of confidence that 1) it will work as it should when you get it and 2) it will last for a long time. But do the electronics change after a heat soak? No. If they are working correctly, all test will be identical all the way through. If they do vary, then we know to take a closer look at the unit. Lonnie |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 13, 2017 9:31:54 GMT -5
Well my friend Bill is very happy with the NC400s I gave him after we built them. He replaced a PS Audio Sprout with them and is now running his Teac NT-503 DAC directly into the NC400s. He claims it's such a night-and-day comparison that he wondered if the Sprout was broken[1]. I'll go up this weekend and listen to his system but since I'm not super familiar with the sound of his old system, it'll mostly just be an excuse to hang out with a friend. I did a bit of research on the Hypex NC1200 Amplifier Modules but there are no "affordable" implementations. The cheapest I found was $9k/pair. Casey [1] I did a bit of research based on Boomzilla's comments on Input/Output Impedance and this is what I found: Teac NT-503 Output Impedance: 188Ω PS Audio Input Impedance: 10kΩ Hypex NC400 Input Impedance: 104kΩ ("DM"), 1.5MΩ ("CM") So the factor of 10 (minimally since I don't understand what "DM" and "CM" refer to) could be part of the improvement. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 13, 2017 11:26:37 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments Lonnie. I do have to admit that I have my amplifier, etc. plugged into a Power Conditioner (a Furman Elite 15PFi), but it's mostly being used as an [expensive] Power Strip because I need more plugs than I have behind the equipment (have 2, need 6). I do have the MPS-1 plugged into one of the "High Current" outlets, so hopefully that'll be good enough. Casey |
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Post by leonski on Apr 13, 2017 12:58:50 GMT -5
On solid state electronics break in - I think the reason for a burn in of components before shipment is to raise the overall quality by catching incipient early failures. Once past a given power run, the MTF (mean time to failure) of the passing units is significantly extended. During TESTING of a New Device before it is even shipped to a customer or 'released' to manufacturing, the first 'prototype' devices are sent to reliability. There? They are sent thru the 1000 hour burn in cycle, in a controlled enviroment while being electriclly stressed. This basically simulates a lifetime of usage and CAN find problems with a device before it gets into end-user hands. Usually a couple lots are run for consistency. They must be CLEAN runs with no problems, equipment failures or other than photo rework. From these lots, a wafer may be pulled at certain steps for F.A. (failure analysis) to analyze and have a GOOD look at for problems, real or potential. Whole systems may be similarly tested, but I'm not familiar with that part of semiconductor manufacture. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 13, 2017 13:02:23 GMT -5
Of course the hardest part of the life of most electronics is being turned on and the second hardest is being turned off. Once everything's stabilized, electronics are mostly "happy" ... As a result, one of the most important testing regimes is simply turning the product on and off ...
Casey
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Post by leonski on Apr 13, 2017 13:24:50 GMT -5
Lifetime testing is VERY important to a manufacturer of the DEVICE, not necessarily whatever people DO with it. That may be out of the manufacturers control.
And yes, stuff that's ON will work for a LONG time before problems. Surges? can be bad. Whole house surge protection, while not part of the original discussion, may not be a bad idea, especially for
those who live in lightning prone areas. Like Florida.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 13, 2017 14:14:02 GMT -5
So again, back to our original topic: new Class D, etc. Amplifier Technology.
So far we have Bang and Olufsen's ICE Power modules, Hypex/Bruno Putzeys' NCore/UcD modules, D-Sonic's use of the Pascal module on their high-powered amplifiers, and then a lot of hand-rolled efforts by various companies. And a lot of these are gaining appreciation from the high-end audio community after wandering around in the desert talking to burning bushes for several years ...
On the NC400 versus NC1200, has anyone compared these? And compared them to Emotiva's current offerings? Just curious.
Casey
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Post by leonski on Apr 14, 2017 0:40:38 GMT -5
Heard the NC1200 at a show but not for long enough or under known enough conditions to form an opinion.
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Post by pawsman on Apr 14, 2017 6:36:11 GMT -5
So again, back to our original topic: new Class D, etc. Amplifier Technology. So far we have Bang and Olufsen's ICE Power modules, Hypex/Bruno Putzeys' NCore/UcD modules, D-Sonic's use of the Pascal module on their high-powered amplifiers, and then a lot of hand-rolled efforts by various companies. And a lot of these are gaining appreciation from the high-end audio community after wandering around in the desert talking to burning bushes for several years ... Casey You could add the Crown Drive-core Amps to the list (which has a thread floating around here somewhere). These Class D Amplifiers were developed by Crown Engineers in conjunction with Texas Instruments; they use the TI chips. I've got the XLS 2500 (440/775/1200 wpc into 8/4/2 ohms). At the closeout price of $299, it's the best buy I've ever made in my long years in High-End Audio. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 14, 2017 7:27:07 GMT -5
I have not heard both the nc400 and nc1200, but I recall reading about them before I built my Hypex. From what I read, people said their sound was very much the same, but the 1200's just had more power. I sure don't need that for my Maggies.
I have not heard anything with the ICE modules.
Mark
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Post by vneal on Apr 14, 2017 7:30:52 GMT -5
D SONIC
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 14, 2017 10:31:42 GMT -5
Which D-Sonic? The lower powered units which use the ICE Power module or the higher power (500W/Channel) Pascal-based Amplifier?
Casey
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Post by leonski on Apr 14, 2017 12:57:10 GMT -5
The list keeps getting longer! Here's another more $$$ entry which has exclusive technology. They even use a large linear PS, not the switchers more common on 'D' amps. www.spectronaudio.com |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 14, 2017 13:11:41 GMT -5
The issue isn't really about how Class D amplifiers work, how good or bad their specs are, or how much they cost - ultimately, it's about how they SOUND. Some "pro" amps got (mistakenly, in my opinion) rave reviews from the HT crowd - Specifically, the Crown XLS series amps. I owned just about every one of those models, and never found ONE that I thought sounded good. Now klinemj, whose ears I trust, says that his nCore amps are da shizz - and I believe him (even though I haven't heard them myself). So I consider that a "proof of concept," so to speak. If any Class D amps can sound really good, then there's nothing wrong with the technology, per se, only the implementations. Apparently, nCore implements the technology "right," and Crown doesn't. Now perhaps this is an inherently unfair comparison - after all, the nCores are aimed at an "audiophile" target audience that values sound quality über alles while the Crowns are designed for physical durability, fault tolerance, and reliability under hostile conditions. But as I said, if the nCores can sound good (and apparently, they do) then the Class D design is perfectly suitable for "high-end" performance. The question then becomes "How little can one spend on a Class D amplifier and still have top-quality sound that is beyond reproach?" Making a Class D amp that sounds good for an astounding price should be relatively easy. Doing the same for an Emotiva price, however, requires some very clever engineering and some "best value for the money" construction. I've not heard the Generation 3 X-series Emotiva amps, but I'd expect them to be exceptional values, based on previous Emotive equipment that I've owned. And, as always, I could be wrong... Boomzilla |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 14, 2017 14:11:32 GMT -5
Boomzilla , the Hypex NC400 Monoblock Kits were ~$700 each x 2 + ~$43 for PayPal/Credit Card overhead + ~$43 shipping + ~$61 Customs Brokerage which comes out to ~$1,547. Not pocket change (unless you're rich), but cheap enough to be worth an experiment. Also, they're incredibly easy to assemble and it's fun to be able to say (with some caveats): "I made that" ... :-) leonski , The use of a Linear Power Supply versus a "more traditional" Switch Mode Power Supply for Class D Amplifiers is an interesting point. I've seen a couple of comments regarding various OEMs manufacturers using Hypex's NC1200 Amplifier Modules who substitute Linear Power Supplies instead of Hypex's SMPS1200 Switch Mode Power Supply. In some of these comments there's a contention that the substituted Linear Power Supplies have to be significantly over-built in order to handle the needs of the NC1200. In particular, there's this note from Nord on why they're using SMPS instead of Linear: What's your take on this? Casey
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