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Post by leonski on Apr 14, 2017 22:40:15 GMT -5
The issue isn't really about how Class D amplifiers work, how good or bad their specs are, or how much they cost - ultimately, it's about how they SOUND. Some "pro" amps got (mistakenly, in my opinion) rave reviews from the HT crowd - Specifically, the Crown XLS series amps. I owned just about every one of those models, and never found ONE that I thought sounded good. Now klinemj , whose ears I trust, says that his nCore amps are da shizz - and I believe him (even though I haven't heard them myself). So I consider that a "proof of concept," so to speak. If any Class D amps can sound really good, then there's nothing wrong with the technology, per se, only the implementations. Apparently, nCore implements the technology "right," and Crown doesn't. Now perhaps this is an inherently unfair comparison - after all, the nCores are aimed at an "audiophile" target audience that values sound quality über alles while the Crowns are designed for physical durability, fault tolerance, and reliability under hostile conditions. But as I said, if the nCores can sound good (and apparently, they do) then the Class D design is perfectly suitable for "high-end" performance. The question then becomes "How little can one spend on a Class D amplifier and still have top-quality sound that is beyond reproach?" Making a Class D amp that sounds good for an astounding price should be relatively easy. Doing the same for an Emotiva price, however, requires some very clever engineering and some "best value for the money" construction. I've not heard the Generation 3 X-series Emotiva amps, but I'd expect them to be exceptional values, based on previous Emotive equipment that I've owned. And, as always, I could be wrong... Boomzilla Don't forget that EMO is buying B&O ICE modules at some point, not 'reinventing' the wheel. At that point, almost no matter WHAT, you will be locked into those modules, virtues and warts. |
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Post by leonski on Apr 14, 2017 22:47:37 GMT -5
I have not heard both the nc400 and nc1200, but I recall reading about them before I built my Hypex. From what I read, people said their sound was very much the same, but the 1200's just had more power. I sure don't need that for my Maggies. I have not heard anything with the ICE modules. Mark I know Maggie owners who run a KW per speaker without blinking. My panels have 2x200 for EACH panel. Going to a true line level crossover / BiAmp situation will have the effect of nearly an additional 3db power. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 15, 2017 5:56:00 GMT -5
I have not heard both the nc400 and nc1200, but I recall reading about them before I built my Hypex. From what I read, people said their sound was very much the same, but the 1200's just had more power. I sure don't need that for my Maggies. I have not heard anything with the ICE modules. Mark I know Maggie owners who run a KW per speaker without blinking. My panels have 2x200 for EACH panel. Going to a true line level crossover / BiAmp situation will have the effect of nearly an additional 3db power. I have heard 3.7's with XPR-1's, and they liked the power, for sure. They can handle it if one wants loud. Mark |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 15, 2017 9:20:43 GMT -5
I do have to say that after reading up on Bruno Putzeys' Mola Mola Kaluga monoblocks based on his Hypex NC1200 designs that I'm "intrigued" ... but more than a little "astonished" by the $16k/pair price. That's a least a factor of 5-6 more than I could conceive spending. (sigh)
I'll definitely have be interested in hearing reviews on how the new XPA Gen3 Double-Wides stack up.
Casey
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 15, 2017 10:45:40 GMT -5
I do have to say that after reading up on Bruno Putzeys' Mola Mola Kaluga monoblocks based on his Hypex NC1200 designs that I'm "intrigued" ... but more than a little "astonished" by the $16k/pair price. That's a least a factor of 5-6 more than I could conceive spending. (sigh) I'll definitely have be interested in hearing reviews on how the new XPA Gen3 Double-Wides stack up. Casey It seems that in Hi end audio you can put anything inside a pretty aluminum enclosure and somehow that make it worth thousands and thousands of dollars. |
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Post by mfeust on Apr 15, 2017 11:13:33 GMT -5
I do have to say that after reading up on Bruno Putzeys' Mola Mola Kaluga monoblocks based on his Hypex NC1200 designs that I'm "intrigued" ... but more than a little "astonished" by the $16k/pair price. That's a least a factor of 5-6 more than I could conceive spending. (sigh) I'll definitely have be interested in hearing reviews on how the new XPA Gen3 Double-Wides stack up. Casey It seems that in Hi end audio you can put anything inside a pretty aluminum enclosure and somehow that make it worth thousands and thousands of dollars. Jeff Rowland made a career doing this. Mark |
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 15, 2017 11:18:13 GMT -5
It seems that in Hi end audio you can put anything inside a pretty aluminum enclosure and somehow that make it worth thousands and thousands of dollars. Jeff Rowland made a career doing this. Mark His work is eye catching at first but it can make your eyes very sore very quickly...  |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 15, 2017 13:14:46 GMT -5
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 15, 2017 13:40:00 GMT -5
Aren't the NC1200 modules exclusively for OEM applications? |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 15, 2017 13:53:45 GMT -5
Yep, the NC1200 is just for OEM designs. And I've heard that Hypex has placed a lower limit of $9,000/pair on any implementations using the NC1200.
Bruno Putzeys has started Mola-Mola to create end-user products of his own based on his designs. The Mola-Mola Kaluga monoblock is based on the Hypex NC1200 Amplifier Module that he designed.
Casey
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Post by leonski on Apr 15, 2017 16:35:28 GMT -5
Quick way to devalue yourself is to price yourself too cheaply.
It's easy to have an occassional sale, but to go UP in price? Your customer 'base' would be up-in-arms.
Can an amp maker / module guy GET 9 grand a pair for what is essentially a module installation? Remains to be seen and IF and what KIND of value can be
added by these folks. Ditching the Switching PS and going to a full-on Linear may be an option. Upgrading some parts to 'better' might be a unique selling point.
I don't think that pretty casework alone will carry the day.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 15, 2017 20:14:17 GMT -5
I think that it's more of a Supply-Demand situation. They have a lock on a technology that a lot of people are interested in so they feel they can raise the price pretty arbitrarily. But the problem is that deciding to buy an amplifier is a discretionary decision: if the price gets too high, people will just forego the product. (This is as compared to the pricing inflexibility of a life-saving drug.)
The problem for the Consumer and the Producer of the product is determining the Price Point of Indifference. And for the Producer, the real calculus should be: how do I then make the most profit overall. For instance, if you priced an amplifier at $1M your potential profit would be very high, but probably unrealized because very few (if any) real sales would emerge, no matter how rare the product.
And working against them is also the knowledge that the Consumers have that the Cost Of Goods in parts is pretty darned low for these amplifiers compared to the asking price.
Casey
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Post by leonski on Apr 15, 2017 23:27:01 GMT -5
I think that it's more of a Supply-Demand situation. They have a lock on a technology that a lot of people are interested in so they feel they can raise the price pretty arbitrarily. But the problem is that deciding to buy an amplifier is a discretionary decision: if the price gets too high, people will just forego the product. (This is as compared to the pricing inflexibility of a life-saving drug.) The problem for the Consumer and the Producer of the product is determining the Price Point of Indifference. And for the Producer, the real calculus should be: how do I then make the most profit overall. For instance, if you priced an amplifier at $1M your potential profit would be very high, but probably unrealized because very few (if any) real sales would emerge, no matter how rare the product. And working against them is also the knowledge that the Consumers have that the Cost Of Goods in parts is pretty darned low for these amplifiers compared to the asking price. Casey I get it and tend to agree. Hi-End (the real hi-end, not mifi) is very competitive with every sale fought for. The seller of 9 grand amps must compete against some pretty rarified equipment. I won't mention any names, but it is clear that 'game on' is 'bout right. At that level, 2 amps which are sonically indistinguishable will have as a tiebreaker, simple Appearance. Iconic Mc Blue Meters or the Pass single meter with beautiful billet aluminum fronts piece are reall showpieces. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 15, 2017 23:37:52 GMT -5
Well, I guess the Good News™ is that there is plenty of very good sounding equipment for very reasonable prices as well — witness our forum's sponsor. And for the NCore stuff, the ~$750/monoblock NC400 "kit" is fairly reasonable for what you get.
Casey
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Post by leonski on Apr 16, 2017 11:28:57 GMT -5
Yeah. While I have targeted a slightly different level of gear, and manufacturer, I have NO heartburn with EMO. I've heard a couple setups, even with REAL expensvie (7K$ pair) and some 20.0 Maggies.
The NC400 would appear to strike a REALLY responsive cord.
My 'dream'?
2 modules in ONE case. 2x PS, for true 'dual mono'
A SINGLE input (Balanced) going to a MiniDSP crossover. Probably the 2x8.
3 outputs, one to the back panel for a SUB and the other pair of balanced to the amps.
One amp for LF, the other for HF. Sub out to L or R sub, respectively.
If I had or THOUGHT I had real mega-bucks for equipment? I'd START with adding a proper space to my house, custom designed for the stereo I can't afford!
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Post by garbulky on Apr 19, 2017 14:27:24 GMT -5
Well my friend Bill and I sat down to assemble the two Hypex NCore NC400 Monoblock Kits I bought. I had my Soldering Iron and Silver Solder out, Wire Strippers, Crimpers, etc., etc., as all laid out in the rather enthusiastic build out video they linked off their web page. All not needed. Everything in already terminated,pre-stripped, etc. Basically it's just a relatively simple assembly process (though there were a couple of left over screws common in both the kits). So that leaves the NC400 Monoblock amplifiers themselves. (I'll try to add a picture here later after I get coffee ... priorities!) The vast majority of their weight is in the very nice case that comes with the kit. I had been afraid that what we were going to end up with is a pair of very cheap looking black boxes. But the cases are very nice with a milled aluminum front panel with a nice logo, etc. The speaker and XLR connections were nice as well. When assembled the preassembled Amplifier and Switched Mode Power Supply modules looked diminutive in the case but that left lots of room for the simple internal wiring harness. All very cool. We hooked the amplifiers up to my DMC-1 to feed them stereo Left/Right signals and, because I was a bit nervous about hooking up brand new self-assembled electronics to my very expensive Legacy Focus SE Speakers, we instead hooked them up to a pair of cheap sacrificial speakers. No problems, so we moved on to the Legacies. The NC400 have a slightly lower gain than the MPS-1 so I had to turn the volume up a bit to achieve the same SPL. But once that was done, it was amazing to hear the amount of power coming out of those tiny amplifier modules. We played through a selection of various bass-heavy tracks, piano, horn, rock, voice, etc. Very tight bass, good sound stage, clear definition, etc. Switching back to the MPS-1 we were both amazed to realize that there was a difference. Any difference. We've both been thinking that there really shouldn't be much if any difference between two well-executed solid state amplifiers. But there was some. We only did the switch over once with an hour between listening sessions[1], so getting a clear description is hard. That said, we both thought that the NC400 had a "punchier bass" and more "detailed/analytic sound". Again, you shouldn't read much into this with regard to detailed notes because we were only able to do the comparison once with an hour layover[1], but we were both pretty clear that there was a difference. I wish I had a setup where I could much more rapidly switch back and forth in order to perform more detailed comparisons. Sound memory is notoriously error prone. But I can say that the Hypex NC400 Monoblock Kits are real, fun, and very good. I don't think anyone would be unhappy picking up a pair. Heck, you could get 7 and stack them up for a multichannel system since they dissipate so little heat!  Two caveats with these amplifiers: 1. They only have XLR Inputs. 2. They don't have a 12V Trigger input. (But they also only dissipate ~5W at idle so you can just leave them on.) Casey [1] Switching back to the MPS-1 was a pain because it's not been happy powering up since I accidentally briefly shorted a pair of output posts several months ago. It took more than an hour to get it powered back up. (sigh) As a result, we didn't have a clean back-to-back comparison and I didn't feel like doing the switch again. Congrats! You've just found out that electronics can sound different! Sorry about your wallet because you have an expensive journey ahead! |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 19, 2017 15:50:10 GMT -5
Well, hopefully not too expensive ... While I really love good audio, there is a line over which I won't step. For instance, even if the Mola-Mola Kaluga Monoblock Amplifiers were provably the best in the world, crushing all others before them, I still wouldn't buy them. $16.5K/pair is just too much money to spend on Audio Amplifiers. They'd need to cross the $5K/pair threshold before I even started to look at them and, realistically, $3K/pair. Thus, I am afraid that my stinginess will hamper my Audiophile Credentials (but [mostly] save my wallet).
Casey
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 19, 2017 18:23:40 GMT -5
Still no pictures. Lame, lame, lame....
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Post by Casey Leedom on May 16, 2017 14:23:42 GMT -5
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 16, 2017 20:33:45 GMT -5
I think Bruno is a rare genius. great article Mark |
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