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Post by simpleman68 on Mar 9, 2017 16:17:28 GMT -5
But not what you're used to reading, I promise.  I've enjoyed a lot of great SS amps over the last 25 years but this last year have sampled a nice variety of tube amps in my rig as well. 1. I love what tubes do for high notes, particularly cymbals and snare shots. I don't love how hard most of them roll off and "mute" them in many other recordings. Live percussion is often quite bright and brash. 2. I love how clean a well built SS amp is in reproducing clean playback. I don't like that it almost sounds overly-sterile or unnatural. Live music, or even a good studio cut isn't always that clean and the tube amps do wonderfully here. 3. I use my Cary tube amp for many jazz, big band and vocal tunes and use the Parasound Halo for prog rock, folk, classic rock etc. I wonder if I'll just have to keep both amp options to keep the sound I'm looking for? I'm pretty happy with my rig and plan to have these speakers, source unit for many years. These Legacy speakers are crazy accurate, have a huge sound stage, reproduce incredible volume of bass without straining, and can perform well in a non-optimal room. Maybe their accuracy is what is making it so difficult as I can hear the positive and negative attributes in different recordings quite clearly. What do you other tube heads think who have tried both? Scott |
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 9, 2017 16:35:02 GMT -5
Some people find a compromise in using a combination of a tube pre amp and a solid state power amp. I do note that you are using XPR series amplifiers, perhaps if you can get your hands on an XPA series power amp, preferably a pair of XPA-1 mono blocks, then you might find some middle ground.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by simpleman68 on Mar 9, 2017 16:46:35 GMT -5
Some people find a compromise in using a combination of a tube pre amp and a solid state power amp. I do note that you are using XPR series amplifiers, perhaps if you can get your hands on an XPA series power amp, preferably a pair of XPA-1 mono blocks, then you might find some middle ground. Cheers Gary I'll have to try some other tube pre-amps. Used a late 90s Musical Fidelity and it didn't sound very good at all. The XPRs are for the theater. I don't like the way they sound paired with these speakers. Highs are grainy and mids sound over stated. I was using Parasound JC1 mono blocks for a few years but sold them and kept a Parasound A21 2 ch and it's an amazing SS amp for the $ and pairs very well with my speakers. Scott |
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Post by mack71 on Mar 9, 2017 17:36:37 GMT -5
Some people find a compromise in using a combination of a tube pre amp and a solid state power amp. I do note that you are using XPR series amplifiers, perhaps if you can get your hands on an XPA series power amp, preferably a pair of XPA-1 mono blocks, then you might find some middle ground. Cheers Gary I'll have to try some other tube pre-amps. Used a late 90s Musical Fidelity and it didn't sound very good at all. The XPRs are for the theater. I don't like the way they sound paired with these speakers. Highs are grainy and mids sound over stated. I was using Parasound JC1 mono blocks for a few years but sold them and kept a Parasound A21 2 ch and it's an amazing SS amp for the $ and pairs very well with my speakers. Scott Just so I did. I bought recently McIntosh C2500 (new for 60%). I connected with XPR-1 - it is wonderful. Previously, I had XSP-1 gene 1 and 2, Hegel p20, p30. Now is a great combo. Never before did not sound so good my Jamo 909R- great synergy. It does not have any grain high. Everything also depends on the rest of the system (dac, cables)and room acoustics. I would add that I have also XPA 1 gene 2. With McIntosh was not as good as the XPR-1 (worse bass, too much brightness) In a few days I will have a camera with a good microphone to try to record a video. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 9, 2017 17:37:34 GMT -5
I notice that you use descriptors like "bright and brash", "overly-sterile", "grainy highs" and "over stated mids". They are typically speaker symptoms, their placement as well as the speakers themselves, and also room acoustics issues. I don't know where you are at with your speaker placement or acoustic treatments but that's where I would start. Then I'd probably transfer my XMC-1 to that room/system and run a DIRAC process and see what the room actually sounds like with those speakers. If you have REW access then you could try that instead of moving the XMC-1. That will almost certainly tell you if there is a speaker issue and/or it is the room acoustics that are causing you to hear something that you are not happy with.
If it's that noticeable and consistent (through multiple swaps) then I seriously doubt that randomly picking power amplifiers based on other people's opinions will result in anything other than frustration.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by jlafrenz on Mar 9, 2017 19:05:39 GMT -5
I fought this battle in the 2 channel system that I used to have setup. I really liked the sound of tubes, but felt there was a bit of punch missing. This was partially due to the lower wattage amp I was using at only 10W. Stepping up to a beefier amp helped this. I also had the living room system that is all solid state (except for the DAC) so that allowed me to be able to enjoy both.
I am guessing the Cary amps you have are no slouches so additional power may not be the answer here. Have you tried different tubes? One benefit of tubes is that you can tailor the system to your liking. Different tubes definitely have different flavors.
Perhaps a hybrid like a Vincent unit with a tube pre and solid state amp will give you the mix you desire. You could also use a tube DAC or phono stage paired with solid state equipment. This is what I did in my living room and took the edge off while maintaining the rest of what you describe liking in SS gear.
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Post by simpleman68 on Mar 9, 2017 20:24:48 GMT -5
I notice that you use descriptors like "bright and brash", "overly-sterile", "grainy highs" and "over stated mids". They are typically speaker symptoms, their placement as well as the speakers themselves, and also room acoustics issues. I don't know where you are at with your speaker placement or acoustic treatments but that's where I would start. Then I'd probably transfer my XMC-1 to that room/system and run a DIRAC process and see what the room actually sounds like with those speakers. If you have REW access then you could try that instead of moving the XMC-1. That will almost certainly tell you if there is a speaker issue and/or it is the room acoustics that are causing you to hear something that you are not happy with. If it's that noticeable and consistent (through multiple swaps) then I seriously doubt that randomly picking power amplifiers based on other people's opinions will result in anything other than frustration. Cheers Gary Great points and I'm dying to play around with REW. Have the calibrated mic and have been learning to work with the DSP that comes with the Legacy Whispers. (Xilica XD 4080) I think this is part of the problem as each amp change requires some DSP programming that I'm ill equipped to do. When I tweak DSP settings, the changes are substantial. Just a change to the output gain setting can cause the stage to flatten or even sound muddy. Room certainly has its acoustic faults but wife already let me put enormous speakers in the room and I'm trying to not push my luck. Room is 18' X 20' with 20' ceiling, hardwood floors (covered 75% by very thick silk/wool rug) and large couch that is a micro-fibre and pretty good at absorbing the highs. No bass traps although I'm quite happy with how clean and tight the bass is with all bass settings flat on the DSP. Whispers are very forgiving of rooms having speakers with no cabinet and a 90 degree off axis null of 0 dB. I'd love to play around with some room treatments, particularly on the wall behind the speakers. I used bright and brash to describe what live percussion sounds like at an outside venue not my speakers. The XPR amps had gobs of power but I don't like the pairing with these speakers. I love how they sound with my Polk RTi A9s in the theater though. Had a couple guys over to do an amp shootout and all agreed the highs were harsh/grainy until we swapped to the JC1s or any of the tube amps; which all sounded wonderful on the highs. (with exception of the excessive roll off of the tubes) Surprisingly, the little Dynaco ST70 was the best I've heard of the group on the highs. A very nice blend with the Whispers IMO. I'd never pick equipment based on somebody else's ears. Learned that years ago when I had a shop installing mobile audio. Alternately, it's hard to find any high end dealers around here without going to NYC or Philly and most of them have enormous upcharges to cover the overhead. I'm a cheap bastige and buy most of my gear used. lol Scott Closest I have on hand of the room.  |
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Post by simpleman68 on Mar 9, 2017 20:30:21 GMT -5
I fought this battle in the 2 channel system that I used to have setup. I really liked the sound of tubes, but felt there was a bit of punch missing. This was partially due to the lower wattage amp I was using at only 10W. Stepping up to a beefier amp helped this. I also had the living room system that is all solid state (except for the DAC) so that allowed me to be able to enjoy both. I am guessing the Cary amps you have are no slouches so additional power may not be the answer here. Have you tried different tubes? One benefit of tubes is that you can tailor the system to your liking. Different tubes definitely have different flavors. Perhaps a hybrid like a Vincent unit with a tube pre and solid state amp will give you the mix you desire. You could also use a tube DAC or phono stage paired with solid state equipment. This is what I did in my living room and took the edge off while maintaining the rest of what you describe liking in SS gear. Makes good sense but the outlier for me is this dang DSP that controls, among other things, level matching between the Legacy amps and the customer supplied amp. Each speaker has 2 - 500W ICE amps and the x-over is 350 Hz. The gain on the Dynaco is 32 dB which is too much for the Legacy factory preset. It's a learning curve that I'll either wind up enjoying the ability to tweak it or I'll wind up selling off and buying a speaker rig that doesn't utilize one. Or, option C which is to get the new wavelet processor from Legacy that does auto room correction by dialing into the mfr site with the details from your calibrated mic, like Dirac works. Very tempting but it's another $5k out of pocket. Scott |
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Post by audiobill on Mar 9, 2017 21:26:13 GMT -5
I've always heard the the highest accolades given to ss amps as "almost tubelike".
I also don't ever recall hearing the other way around. Imagine, "This tube amp sounds almost as good as (solid state, class D, class H, whatever)".
Accept no compromises or substitutes.
An electron can float through a vacuum, musically like a jet through air, or grind through silicon like a foot soldier on Normandy Beach.
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Post by vcautokid on Mar 9, 2017 23:10:36 GMT -5
Oh yeah. I get it. This is exactly the same thread as before, only different. Well happy tube rolling to you. Oh I heard the Vincent brand mentioned. No relation by the way. It is Chinese actually distributed by Sintron, and Thorens. Yep you know, the turntable company. Originally a Shengya, it is restyled, and some minor internal differences, but the parentage is there.  |
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Post by vneal on Mar 10, 2017 1:00:03 GMT -5
For two channel I do think there is an answer. By using a great powerful solid state amp paired with a high end tube pre amp I think you get the best of both worlds
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Post by simpleman68 on Mar 10, 2017 7:17:10 GMT -5
For two channel I do think their is an answer. By using a great powerful solid state amp paired with a high end tube pre amp I think you get the best of both worlds I'll be trying that with a better pre, soon. Next up is a shootout between Big Dan's old Carvers (305M) and the Cary. It helps that these Whispers are 95 dB efficient and do well with amps rated with less power. Scott |
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 10, 2017 7:26:50 GMT -5
Maybe, maybe not vneal - Some tube preamps (and I specifically refer to the Conrad Johnson ET3 that I had) don't seem to do their best into solid state power amps. I believe that it's an impedance-matching thing. Most solid state power amps have input impedances of 5 to 15 K ohms. But most tubed power amps have input impedances approaching 300 K ohms. Keeping a preamp that is voiced for one power amp impedance sounding the same into a very different power amp input impedance is a trick that most manufacturers can't do. My experience is that most solid state preamps, when played into high-impedance tube amps, sound flat, dynamically. This isn't always the case, but most often seems to be. When a tube preamp (intended for use with high-input-impedance tube power amps) is played with a solid state power amp (of low input impedance), it sometimes sounds more vivid dynamically. This isn't necessarily a good thing. The CJ preamp (played into any SS power amp) sounded bass-heavy and bright (or, as my audio amigo garbulky called it - "It's a rock-and-roll preamp!"). How differently might that preamp have sounded if played with a tubed power amp? I don't know. So SOME tube preamps play well with solid-state amps just as SOME SS preamps play well with tube amps - but the match is NEVER a sure one. You've just got to try & then decide if you like the match. Boom PS: One solid state preamp that seems to do pretty well with tube power amps is Emotiva's PT-100. It does lose some dynamics with my tube power amps, but not as much as most other solid-state preamps. Why? I don't know. But that's what I hear. |
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Post by Priapulus on Mar 10, 2017 8:50:52 GMT -5
Any of the subtle tonal differences in a tube amplifier could be easily replicated by inexpensive digital sound processing.
But we don't do that (unless you count using s tube preamp to tube-colour your system). Why? Probably for the same reason I like vinyl.
I don't like the scratchiness, clicks, pops, low bandwidth or compression of vinyl. But I love the gestalt and ritual of pulling the album off the shelf, perusing the jacket, sliding the disk out of the sleeve and placing it on the platter, cleaning it, and gingerly dropping the tonearm on the first track. It's like a Chinese tea ceremony. The joy of having the solid walnut AR turntable sitting there.
It the same way, I love the antiquarian, contrarian glow of naked bulbs, sitting next to the turntable. Matching the '70's turntable in its anachronistic splendor. The sound be damned, just looking at it is so elegant; that is the secret of glass.
Sincerely
/b
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Post by Porscheguy on Mar 10, 2017 8:50:58 GMT -5
My electronics are all soildtubestate. Best of both worlds.
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 10, 2017 9:55:58 GMT -5
These tube versus solid state threads are just a bunch of mindless philosophizing. Why not just try both and then use what sounds best to your own ears? And then don't bother trying to convince other people that your ears are their ears. Mindless philosophizing.. |
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Post by simpleman68 on Mar 10, 2017 12:08:13 GMT -5
These tube versus solid state threads are just a bunch of mindless philosophizing. Why not just try both and then use what sounds best to your own ears? And then don't bother trying to convince other people that your ears are their ears. Mindless philosophizing.. \ Not really "philosophizing", although I certainly know what you mean. I am just torn between wanting the best of both worlds and wondering if I can get it without having to run 2 different amps in the 2 ch rig. The other monkey wrench is that my speakers come with a DSP that I'm only just learning to program; and at a rudimentary level at that.  Scott |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Mar 10, 2017 13:05:03 GMT -5
Makes good sense but the outlier for me is this dang DSP that controls, among other things, level matching between the Legacy amps and the customer supplied amp. Each speaker has 2 - 500W ICE amps and the x-over is 350 Hz. The gain on the Dynaco is 32 dB which is too much for the Legacy factory preset. It's a learning curve that I'll either wind up enjoying the ability to tweak it or I'll wind up selling off and buying a speaker rig that doesn't utilize one. Or, option C which is to get the new wavelet processor from Legacy that does auto room correction by dialing into the mfr site with the details from your calibrated mic, like Dirac works. Very tempting but it's another $5k out of pocket. You're not seriously considering replacing the Whispers are you Scott? Say it ain't so! Remember, we Legacy Owners have to stick together! :-) More seriously, I imagine that you're not the first person to try to do this. Have you contacted Legacy directly for their advice? Casey |
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Post by knucklehead on Mar 10, 2017 13:21:26 GMT -5
Yesterday I hauled out my latest purchase to the living room where my main AV gear is. Its a Sansui 500a receiver - probably manufactured in 1964-66. Got them connected to the HTPC and the song towers and sat down to play some flac files. I loaded up about 3 hours of music and sat down for a listening session. Dang it all - the music was so enjoyable I didn't bother to write down any impressions so this is from memory from a day ago. The main limitation with this receiver shows up with higher volumes. A soft distortion which is typical of low power tube amps/receivers can be clearly heard at higher volumes. The vacuum tubes tend to smooth out the distortion so it's not harsh like SS gear. But that is higher than I care to listen for long. I turned the sound down to a comfortable level and enjoyed it immensely. Other than the softer mid-bass 'slam' the 500a sounds pretty danged good. I continue to be surprised at the song towers low bass reproduction and the 500a seemed capable of reproducing the low bass notes just fine. No sub was used during that session.
The song towers are 89db efficient - probably not the best pairing for the 500a. Listening to Cowboy Junkies' Trinity Sessions - Margo's voice played through the 500a is as good as I've heard it, and I've played that album many times with various amps/preamps etc. Leann Rimes singing Patsy Cline was also a real pleasure.
I owned a 500a prior to this one. As some of you may know I bought my first piece of audio gear as an 18yo USN sailor at a Naval Exchange in Japan in 1966(?) - can't quite nail down the year and the older I get the foggier some things seem. At any rate my original setup which I had for about 5-6 years (best I can remember) included a crappy Garrard TT and a pair of AR2 speakers. When I switched to SS in 71-72(?) I recall thinking that female voices were best heard on a tube amp/receiver. After yesterday's listening session I have that same impression. Other than the slightly softer mid-bass this old receiver sounds pretty danged good. Bass reproduction was excellent - I didn't expect that.
I may yet buy a VTA-120 kit - if nothing else it'll keep my soldering skills sharp. Can they be used for day to day amps?
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Post by jlafrenz on Mar 10, 2017 13:49:40 GMT -5
I fought this battle in the 2 channel system that I used to have setup. I really liked the sound of tubes, but felt there was a bit of punch missing. This was partially due to the lower wattage amp I was using at only 10W. Stepping up to a beefier amp helped this. I also had the living room system that is all solid state (except for the DAC) so that allowed me to be able to enjoy both. I am guessing the Cary amps you have are no slouches so additional power may not be the answer here. Have you tried different tubes? One benefit of tubes is that you can tailor the system to your liking. Different tubes definitely have different flavors. Perhaps a hybrid like a Vincent unit with a tube pre and solid state amp will give you the mix you desire. You could also use a tube DAC or phono stage paired with solid state equipment. This is what I did in my living room and took the edge off while maintaining the rest of what you describe liking in SS gear. Makes good sense but the outlier for me is this dang DSP that controls, among other things, level matching between the Legacy amps and the customer supplied amp. Each speaker has 2 - 500W ICE amps and the x-over is 350 Hz. The gain on the Dynaco is 32 dB which is too much for the Legacy factory preset. It's a learning curve that I'll either wind up enjoying the ability to tweak it or I'll wind up selling off and buying a speaker rig that doesn't utilize one. Or, option C which is to get the new wavelet processor from Legacy that does auto room correction by dialing into the mfr site with the details from your calibrated mic, like Dirac works. Very tempting but it's another $5k out of pocket. Scott This is all about system Synergy. I fought this in my 2 channel setup for a while and finally got it where I wanted it. It was a combination of equipment, speaker placement and tube rolling. It can be frustrating at times, but something that can be figured out with a little trial and error. Of course patience too, which isn't always my strong suit |
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