Do you listen to music or the equipment?

[mountain]

Yes.

[leonski]

this is a real third-rail arguement in some circles.
I think it is important to have a good grounding in what Real and LIVE music sounds like. That's a good idea.
Second, many persons get caught up in 'reviews' and 'best'. Utter nuttiness. Reviewers ALWAYS find good stuff to say, even if they don't like something.
Ever read a Really Awful review? Few and far between.

System synergy is Far more important. Stuff works together for a common goal or it doesn't.

I also firmly believe in Long-Term system stability.
My speakers, for example? From the early-1970s forward, I've owned Lafayette (junk), Fischer (just bad) RSL (Rogers Sound Labs. Perfect JBL L100 copies) and than Magnepan. My Maggies lasted
20+ years and thru a rebuild in White Bear Lake. I 'traded' up in the line and have 1.6s now.

Similar arc of Electronics ownership to present day. I"ve owned Kenwood integrated, Lafayette receiver!, Carver Cube, Rotel (briefly) PSAudio and now Parasound. Nothing 'exotic'.

This is over a period exceeding 40 years. Have I made mistakes? Yep. Rotel power amp couldn't cut it. I wish I had bought the Original Advent Loudspeaker. (large Advent)

Music was always the first priority Sound Wise, even though I integrated my system with the TV sound back in the 80s. Nobody Knows what half of those movie effects are Supposed to sound like, anyway.

[sidvicious]

I listen to the Music First the equipment is only a vehicle that I use to that end. I don't buy every audiophile album or even a lot of them. Half of my collection is under 5.00 dollars, and my most expensive record is $125.00, an original pressing of John Coltrane, a love Supreme in Mint - condition. I usually use shops that allow me to listen to the music first and I know within seconds per track if the music is something I will listen to or not. By being a DJ earlier in my adult life, it doesn't take me long to spot the jewels from the duds. I think much too often some like to use catch phrases like Audiophiles are people that listen to their system and Music lovers are people that listen to the music, which is untrue, you can be both. Until I get my system set up in my new location, I am listening through my computer lossless/flac through my headphone amplifier SimAudio Moon 230 HAD and loving it, because I have downloaded CD's that I haven't seen in years onto the hard drive and I'm enjoying buying new CD's and vinyl.

I'm an Audiophile that picked up this hobby when I was thirteen years old and when I was able to buy better equipment, like anything else in life, you buy better when you can do better, ie homes, cars, motorcycles, cameras, guns, boats, computers. If you only care about the equipment, then you will rarely enjoy the music. I love the way different beats and sounds or lyrics merge together to create harmony, even Avantgarde. You don't get an eclectic mix of music over such a period of decades as (which I still have, I have never sold one album) mine when you started with hardly anything like most of us, if you truly didn't enjoy the music first, last and always. Heck I have some tracks that I can't find on CD's or LP's that I have on MP3 (not a lot and downloaded from Amazon)that I still listen to today. A true Audiophile wants the music to be reproduced as best as he or she can afford to have it done.

[leonski]

Sid,
How much LIVE music do you listen to or attend? Orchestral? Jazz? Rock?
What do you use for your reference?

I hope you have a FINE TT to support your Best Vinyl. And a good cleaning system.

[sidvicious]

I'm glad leonski, you asked, I have attended jazz concerts in Chicago and we have jazz in the park in the downtown area in the summer time. I make a point of making a reference of what live music sounds like and although, you won't ever get live music, I have heard $100,000 systems and one in particular was very real sounding. I have a VPI Classic 1 and I use a VPI 16.5 cleaning machine and if you go on You Tube I use a cleaning solution by a guy named Koolkatjazz, www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA_vCgxVTjU&t=1048s it's an enzyme based kit that works better than any cleaning solution that I have made or bought up until this point.

At one of the record stores that I attend frequently they have a local live bands play periodically in the store and there are a couple of bars on that side of town that frequently have local live rock bands play. That is how I discovered a guy named Jon Mueller, who has several albums out, he actually played at the particular record store. So I hear live music quite often, some times it sounds great when they do a good sound check and use good equipment and sometimes the bands sounds bad when the amp is too loud or not adjusted properly. It's mostly Jazz and Rock that I hear most often, but I have been to an Opera Concert or two. My reference point is my local shops reference $100,000 system, which I will never have, but It has helped me fix some problems, especially with room acoustics and the dealer let's me borrow what ever I want so I get a chance to test things, but I don't abuse that privilege.

[drtrey3]

I listen to and perform live music weekly, what that has to do with my stereo is a mystery.

Trey

[pedrocols]

Apr 26, 2017 7:39:12 GMT -5 drtrey3 said:

I listen to and perform live music weekly, what that has to do with my stereo is a mystery.

Trey

The popular belief is that musicians aren't particularly "concern" or fuzzy about how music sounds at home and don't necessarily pay too much attention to it as they are more interested on how well they can play music live.

[charlieeco]

I love music, of any kind, it´s my life, but I find audio equipment sexyyyyy!!!
So both together are explosive, pure adrenaline, addictive.

[leonski]

Apr 26, 2017 8:43:19 GMT -5 pedrocols said:

Apr 26, 2017 7:39:12 GMT -5 drtrey3 said:

I listen to and perform live music weekly, what that has to do with my stereo is a mystery.

Trey

The popular belief is that musicians aren't particularly "concern" or fuzzy about how music sounds at home and don't necessarily pay too much attention to it as they are more interested on how well they can play music live.

My experiences with musicians spanning 4 decades agrees.   Few musicians care what their home system sounds like.    At least one drummer I knew had partial hearing loss.   In the early days, I could understand this as most musicians were also POOR.   Keeping a fresh bottle of Jack Daniels was more important than saving up for a new preamp.  

For the dedicated home listener, it is just my OPINION that having a reference to what LIVE music is and how it sounds is really a great idea.     Since nobody actually knows what stuff in Movies is supposed to sound like, it's good enough to be loud and clear.   

[frenchyfranky]

Apr 26, 2017 9:12:26 GMT -5 charlieeco said:

I love music, of any kind, it´s my life, but I find audio equipment sexyyyyy!!!
So both together are explosive, pure adrenaline, addictive.

[drtrey3]

I think few people are audiophiles, most are not. So most musicians are not audiophiles. And most are not wealthy!

My problem is that I sing in the choir most weeks, surrounded by great singers (I am not in that category) and excellent Nashville studio guys and have no idea what that has to do with my system or me enjoying it. Don't get me wrong, I love the singing and being next to the guys in the band, but it is not an audiophile experience.

At home, I don't want to listen to middle of the choir mixes, I listen to rock WAY more than choral selections (I THINK I have Messiah on the hard drive)and the vast majority of my musical selections are studio recordings. I cannot think of any direct or indirect connection between my experience of live music and listening at home or through headphones.

So the Absolute Sound metaphor or standard eludes me.

Rather, it charges my emotions when McGuinn's guitar chimes and snaps like it did when I listened to the sacd last night! Great, pure tone and dynamics! Much, much better sounding than when I saw him play in concert. And how about that low bass on Polly Come Home by Plant and Krauss? When my sub is set up right, it just rolls into the room! Or that machine noise from the left back speaker on Welcome to the Machine that always startles me even when I am waiting for it!

So I guess I embrace an audiophile zeitgeist of emotional connection to the music. That is what I am after, and I find that more refined gear helps me get more of that. So I am an audiophile.

But I am seeking emotional connection with the musicians more than accuracy of reproduction. The latter is just a tool for me to get more of the former.

Trey

[leonski]

Trey,
i speak to REFERENCE. Not 'absolutes'.
One measure of a system which hurts MY connection is not really 'measureable'', but rather what has come to be called PRaT. Pace. Rhythm and Timing.
I've even heard LIVE music which was completely uninvolving. Good sound, but SomeThing was off in the PRaT department.
I'm not a fanatic on this, but do recognize LIVE music as the standard by which the best systems CAN be judged.

[drtrey3]

Yep, the jump matters!

I see your point about PRaT and wanting a facsimile of the live sound. I can tell when the music swings or when it does not, but I bet I am not well schooled or practiced at using PRaT as an evaluation tool. Sounds like a good skill to work on.

Trey

[leonski]

Trey:

Happy Listening.

[drtrey3]

Thank bro! And to you!

Trey

[jeffair10]

Apr 18, 2017 7:41:44 GMT -5 vneal said:

I listen to the music thru the equipment

I concur, 100%.


Pull out a disc out that I am in the mood for, plop it on the Sony spinner. Fire up the pre/pro, the amp and press the start button on the Sony. Sit back and enjoy the sound it creates.


"The sound" is the variable, depending on your setup/room/placement, etc. But it's still listening to the music through the equipment.

[clarkstarr]

I listen moreso to the "set-up", rather than the equipment, per se.

[clarkstarr]

It's like, any car can be decent transportation, when driven within it's performance envelope.

With any given system, you have limitations. So, you accept them and do the best set-up or adjustment you can.

Ironically, my favourite band is considered a "studio band", although a talented and complex one. In that sense, equipment like synths, either analogue SS or tubes, or digital sampler....it IS the "music". Now, if you mean listening to the composition and songwriting, I do it in an analytical and deconstructive way.

Beyond my childhood obsession with electronics via Radio Shack, my best friend of the 2000 era was a top music producer. So, with him I spent 1000s of hours in major studios with 100s of gold records on the wall. I met celebrities in the industry, and had my own friends at WB Records. I got a lot of credit because of my home system, and music these people never heard before. Quality over quantity.

Anyway, audiophiles would be surprised how chintzy equipment and set-ups are in the studio. Lets just say that premium connectors are non existent. 

I got along with a few different musical cliques back then. My friends owned nightclubs so I had house DJs who are still well-known on an employee basis. That was one influence, someplace where I installed the sound systems and DJ booths. Another group of friends were rappers, err Hip Hop artists, through my white producer friend. These were fun guys. I went places with them like playing David Letterman and SNL. We lived on the same street, so at one point they were set-up in my house since I wasn't around much, working up their breakthrough album. These are bands and producers people here would know. I had DRE calling my mom's house for a while, since my friend gave the easy-to-remember number to him....not everyone had cell phones back then, and you couldn't keep a number long, lol. Mom would say, your friend Andre from LA called again...

So that was two music situations available to me....however. Another bunch of friends were promoters for raves, and really cool bands. I had a VIP pass for Daft Punk in NYC at Hammerstein, it was ~crazy~, and only about 1000 people were there. This was 1997, way before their breakout. I will come back to them. Another good show was Orbital and Rabbit in the Moon....crazy. It was JFK Jr's bachelor party in the VIP with Beastie Boys and Bjork, who I got to meet. Such a great talent. BUT my local crew threw outlaw raves at abandoned sites and rented ballrooms. They rented like 6 ballrooms at once and like 20k people showed up. More music....more fun than ANY other genre....it was Drum and Bass. Still, at home I held out for my Brit-Pop "studio" band...New Order was my guiding light. (see 24hr PP movie) 

So yeah, most of that is "electronic" music....inseparable from the system it plays on. Here's an article I want to share. It almost seems like the shortcut of synths is actually more work. Anyway, it explains just how complex the studio sessions can be. I wish I had put more effort into it when the time was right. At least my producer friend taught me how to improvise songs I like. So now, that's fun to me. Look at those guys on YouTube who sequence pop songs, I admire the skill. It's most simply described as a process, from concept, to recording to playback, all have equal weight. Also, I think non-musicians are kind of lost when it comes to referencing how instruments sound when they are played live. Sometimes I think the only instrument speakers can playback correctly is drums, since they physically resemble them so closely. I'm a cynic I guess.

[clarkstarr]

This is the article I mentioned. It's a bit tech-heavy, but should expand some concepts talked about here.

Such a great album, one of the few my wife will sit still for.

Yes, I am new here. Sorry about the lengthy post. I getting ready to buy a new amp for the first time in 30 years, can you tell?

www.soundonsound.com/people/recording-random-access-memories-daft-punk

Daft Punk have been regarded as leading lights of electronic dance music, yet they have waxed lyrical about the music of the '70s and early '80s, which they claim represents "the zenith of a certain craftsmanship in sound recording” and criticised music made with laptops, which "aren't really music instruments”. For Random Access Memories they had, they announced, gone back to the recording methods of the '70s and '80s, which involved not only a huge recording budget, but also the employment of great musicians from the era, and the use of high-end recording studios full of analogue equipment, all in order "to make music that others might one day sample”.

Daft Punk's ideas didn't appear so outlandish any more. Bangalter and de Homem-Christo continued to make grand proclamations, openly criticising today's electronic music scene and what they see as its "glorification of technology”, and stating that their reference points for RAM were all-time legendary albums like the Eagles' Hotel California, Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, and Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon. The black background on the cover of RAM, with handwriting in the top-left corner, is a clear reference to Michael Jackson's Thriller, while opening track 'Give Life Back To Music' is a summary of the album's mission.

[clarkstarr]

In case people really like the creative process, wow... 24 Hour Party People is an eye opener, lol I made that pun. The studio gags alone are worth watching.

It's free for the time being....watch it. (takes a while to get going, but yeah)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr72He1k6lU