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Post by skippy1977 on Apr 19, 2017 9:35:18 GMT -5
I've owned the XMC-1 for quite awhile and I'm very happy with it's performance. I have a question regarding the HDMI circuitry. Oppo recently posted the specifications of the 205 and one of the interesting features is the advanced HDMI circuitry it has. Below is from the Oppo 205 features/specs page from their site.
My question would be does the XMC-1 have "synchronous or asynchorous clock scheme" to take full advantage of the 205's advanced HDMI circuitry to reduce jitter and eliminate timing errors (like if I really knew what that meant  )? After many years of using analog for stereo music the inclusion of the XMC-1 in my system and even more so Dirac I now use HDMI exclusively for all music listening. So the addition of advanced HDMI circuitry with the 205 has me seriously considering buying one to replace my Oppo 105D.
So if anyone has any information on the XMC-1's HDMI circuitry and if it would "play well" with the 205 your thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks  !
HDMI Audio Jitter Reduction:
The UDP-205 features a high-stability, high-precision HDMI clock and a special HDMI audio jitter reduction circuit. This unique design significantly reduces jitter and eliminates timing errors, allowing you to enjoy your music with increased accuracy when you use the audio-only HDMI output port for connecting the audio signal. PCM and DSD signals rely on the HDMI clock directly, so the HDMI audio jitter reduction circuitry can improve the sound quality of PCM and DSD audio. For compressed bitstream audio, it helps to ensure error-free transmission, and may improve the audio performance depending on whether the audio decoder in the A/V processor or receiver uses a synchronous or asynchorous clock scheme.
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Post by audiosyndrome on Apr 19, 2017 11:16:01 GMT -5
The XMC-1 inputs all see an asynchronous sample rate converter (if enabled). This includes the HDMI inputs and essentially makes jitter a non- issue.
Russ
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Post by cwt on Apr 19, 2017 13:32:33 GMT -5
Yes as mentioned; on the spec page The trouble with how hdmi was designed was timing the data throughput and subsequent jitter ;its timed by the video clock in the source rather than say an audio clock in the pre pro/avr . Various methods have been tried over the years to do better like sony HATS and pioneers PQLS ; which slaved the avr's clock to the source clock . It didn't catch on as haven't one tried a couple of years ago by HDMI.ORG themselves My pana ub900 has a similar low jitter clock |
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Post by skippy1977 on Apr 19, 2017 14:40:38 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts Russ and cwt ! So from your posts it seems that the XMC-1 and the 205 will be an excellent match. Is Oppo's HDMI circuitry attempting the same outcome as Sony's H.A.T.S. and Pioneer's PQLS technology? Or is it totally different as one would need a Sony and Pioneer AVR for their technology to work correctly? How is the asynchronous sample rate converter enabled in the XMC-1? Thanks again! |
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Post by cwt on Apr 20, 2017 2:18:24 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts Russ and cwt ! So from your posts it seems that the XMC-1 and the 205 will be an excellent match. Is Oppo's HDMI circuitry attempting the same outcome as Sony's H.A.T.S. and Pioneer's PQLS technology? Or is it totally different as one would need a Sony and Pioneer AVR for their technology to work correctly? How is the asynchronous sample rate converter enabled in the XMC-1? Thanks again! As you surmise skippy the sony and pioneer need matching AVR's or pre pro;s to be effective . Similarly Denon link was another where you needed both components ; it improved with different iterations ending with denon link 4 iirc in the AVP-A1HD ; which applied it to bitstreams ; the pio method used lpcm [ I had a pio 51hd bd player once that had a 2ch version of it-that was improved to multichannel next generation] I have an aversion to companies that have proprietary systems a bit as Sony did a number on some that bought an exxy sacd player with HATS and were left wondering after the 1 avr that took it was discontinued  community.sony.com/t5/Home-Theater-Products/What-Happened-to-Sony-s-HATS-Technology/td-p/388212Don't have an XMC1 but I took what audiosyndrome to mean sort of an 'auto' mechanism if its fed asynchronous data . Its all about the data being received being timed correctly so theres no buffer overrun and a consequent bottleneck , the XMC1 does more in this regard than many to the point of asynch converters between the main lossless dsp decoder and the pl2x neo6 decoder later in the circuit path ; KeithL explained this very well previously somewhere else I couldn't find ? The 205 is an interesting device ; I wouldn't want to choose between the ESS dacs and upmarket analog stage or the hi clocked hdmi audio out . Interesting that oppo are starting to emulate the aftermarket modders with the better clocking . I think possibly another influence was the Ayre oppo player based on the 83 ? Notice the clock talk and asynch usb ; www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/1181755-ayre-dx-5-bluray-player.html#post17402589It used the ARC hdmi 1.3 dejitter protocol that I mentioned hdmi.org introduced but nobody implemented in their avr;s  |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 20, 2017 9:07:33 GMT -5
All asynchronous USB audio inputs re-clock the data (or, rather, clock it at their end rather than letting the computer do it). This is really important because the plain old UBS outputs on computers are notoriously bad in terms of time stability. The XMC-1 does a re-clock between the DSP stages - so it does it to audio coming from all the inputs (in addition to having an asynch USB audio input). The quality of the clocking has ALWAYS been important.... And it depends on both the quality of the clock itself, and on all of the circuitry that's connected to it; careful design is quite important. A lot of the DIY tweakers have this idea that all they need to reach nirvana is to pop in a high quality clock chip, The reality is that, unless the design of the rest of your circuitry is top notch, upgrading the clock chip alone will make little or no difference. (Plug the world's best cesium clock into a badly designed DAC, and the clock signal two inches down the first PCB trace won't be any better than it was with a $1 clock chip.) What you're noticing is that enough guys in the marketing department have realized that it's worth mentioning the clock as a selling feature. The real point with the Oppos is that, if you plan to use the analog outputs, then how well the DACs work is important. But, if you're NOT planning to use the analog outputs, then they're just a bunch of extra stuff you're paying for and NOT using. (And remember that the difference in price between the Oppo 203 and the 205 is MORE than the price of a good outboard DAC like the DC-1 (it's easy to forget that in the confusion). Thanks for your thoughts Russ and cwt ! So from your posts it seems that the XMC-1 and the 205 will be an excellent match. Is Oppo's HDMI circuitry attempting the same outcome as Sony's H.A.T.S. and Pioneer's PQLS technology? Or is it totally different as one would need a Sony and Pioneer AVR for their technology to work correctly? How is the asynchronous sample rate converter enabled in the XMC-1? Thanks again! As you surmise skippy the sony and pioneer need matching AVR's or pre pro;s to be effective . Similarly Denon link was another where you needed both components ; it improved with different iterations ending with denon link 4 iirc in the AVP-A1HD ; which applied it to bitstreams ; the pio method used lpcm [ I had a pio 51hd bd player once that had a 2ch version of it-that was improved to multichannel next generation] I have an aversion to companies that have proprietary systems a bit as Sony did a number on some that bought an exxy sacd player with HATS and were left wondering after the 1 avr that took it was discontinued community.sony.com/t5/Home-Theater-Products/What-Happened-to-Sony-s-HATS-Technology/td-p/388212Don't have an XMC1 but I took what audiosyndrome to mean sort of an 'auto' mechanism if its fed asynchronous data . Its all about the data being received being timed correctly so theres no buffer overrun and a consequent bottleneck , the XMC1 does more in this regard than many to the point of asynch converters between the main lossless dsp decoder and the pl2x neo6 decoder later in the circuit path ; KeithL explained this very well previously somewhere else I couldn't find ? The 205 is an interesting device ; I wouldn't want to choose between the ESS dacs and upmarket analog stage or the hi clocked hdmi audio out . Interesting that oppo are starting to emulate the aftermarket modders with the better clocking . I think possibly another influence was the Ayre oppo player based on the 83 ? Notice the clock talk and asynch usb ; www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/1181755-ayre-dx-5-bluray-player.html#post17402589It used the ARC hdmi 1.3 dejitter protocol that I mentioned hdmi.org introduced but nobody implemented in their avr;s |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 20, 2017 10:10:36 GMT -5
The XMC-1 has an ASRC between its audio DSP stages.... which means that ANY digital audio passing through the XMC-1 is re-clocked to remove jitter. (This is true as long as the audio goes through the DSP, which includes all digital audio, and includes analog audio in any mode that includes processing options; in Reference Stereo Mode the analog input signal remains analog throughout, and doesn't go through the DSP, so it doesn't get re-clocked... or clocked at all.) In essence, the only clock that has an impact on sound quality is the clock associated with the data WHEN IT IS FED INTO THE DAC. It is critical that the DAC receive the correct data at the correct times - as controlled by the clock. An imperfect clock at the input to the DAC will have the same effect as imperfect data - the output will be incorrect. The clock at other points along the signal path really doesn't matter as long as it's "cleaned up" when the signal gets sent to the DAC. (The data on a CD is a list of numbers. A clock is used to facilitate moving those numbers around, but its accuracy doesn't matter unless it's so far off that it actually causes data to be lost or corrupted. Imagine reading a description of events in a news article. The dates of the events described in the article won't change if you read it too slowly or too quickly, unless your voice actually becomes unintelligible. If the data is going straight from the CD mechanism to the DAC, without being re-clocked, then the rate of the clock matters, because it's the clock being used by the DAC to convert the data. However, if the data is being re-clocked, then the accuracy of the clock before that point doesn't matter much... because the data is reaching the DAC under the control of the last clock it passes through.) The ASRC in the XMC-1 is permanently installed between the two DSPs.... it is ALWAYS enabled for any audio that passed through the DSPs. Thanks for your thoughts Russ and cwt ! So from your posts it seems that the XMC-1 and the 205 will be an excellent match. Is Oppo's HDMI circuitry attempting the same outcome as Sony's H.A.T.S. and Pioneer's PQLS technology? Or is it totally different as one would need a Sony and Pioneer AVR for their technology to work correctly? How is the asynchronous sample rate converter enabled in the XMC-1? Thanks again! |
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Post by cwt on Apr 20, 2017 13:46:14 GMT -5
What you're noticing is that enough guys in the marketing department have realized that it's worth mentioning the clock as a selling feature. The real point with the Oppos is that, if you plan to use the analog outputs, then how well the DACs work is important. But, if you're NOT planning to use the analog outputs, then they're just a bunch of extra stuff you're paying for and NOT using. (And remember that the difference in price between the Oppo 203 and the 205 is MORE than the price of a good outboard DAC like the DC-1 (it's easy to forget that in the confusion). A lot of expectations were placed on the 205 but oppo have been consistent on what to expect on the analog version of each generation so they have to talk it up a bit I saw the point of the analog model a few generations ago but its a bit redundant now with the xmc1's usb b type port and 7.1 multi analog when UHD discs are all about atmos and dts-x  Its interesting that both the oppo and Panasonic uhd models both handle dsd files which would suit many depending on your system eg panas |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 20, 2017 13:58:16 GMT -5
What you're noticing is that enough guys in the marketing department have realized that it's worth mentioning the clock as a selling feature. The real point with the Oppos is that, if you plan to use the analog outputs, then how well the DACs work is important. But, if you're NOT planning to use the analog outputs, then they're just a bunch of extra stuff you're paying for and NOT using. (And remember that the difference in price between the Oppo 203 and the 205 is MORE than the price of a good outboard DAC like the DC-1 (it's easy to forget that in the confusion). A lot of expectations were placed on the 205 but oppo have been consistent on what to expect on the analog version of each generation so they have to talk it up a bit I saw the point of the analog model a few generations ago but its a bit redundant now with the xmc1's usb b type port and 7.1 multi analog when UHD discs are all about atmos and dts-x Its interesting that both the oppo and Panasonic uhd models both handle dsd files which would suit many depending on your system eg panas AH, so you know the used cars salesman,,,,,,,,,,  Posted in wrong thread! Sorry for my confusion! Not sure how it happened,,,,,,,user error im sure!   |
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Post by cwt on Apr 21, 2017 6:43:27 GMT -5
AH, so you know the used cars salesman,,,,,,,,,,  Ive owned 3 oppo's over the years Nick but I still read comments on the 203 vis a vis disc reading and washing discs so a bit more R&D applied to the 203 would have been appreciated by those owners . There is a youtube comparison doing the rounds atm; pana vs oppo but I wont post it in deference to oppo ; see Ime a fanboy |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 21, 2017 9:53:28 GMT -5
AH, so you know the used cars salesman,,,,,,,,,, Ive owned 3 oppo's over the years Nick but I still read comments on the 203 vis a vis disc reading and washing discs so a bit more R&D applied to the 203 would have been appreciated by those owners . There is a youtube comparison doing the rounds atm; pana vs oppo but I wont post it in deference to oppo ; see Ime a fanboy Oops  not sure how I posted this comment here, it should have been in the "Stairs Lift" thread. Apologies all around! |
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Post by cwt on Apr 21, 2017 12:38:55 GMT -5
Ive owned 3 oppo's over the years Nick but I still read comments on the 203 vis a vis disc reading and washing discs so a bit more R&D applied to the 203 would have been appreciated by those owners . There is a youtube comparison doing the rounds atm; pana vs oppo but I wont post it in deference to oppo ; see Ime a fanboy Oops not sure how I posted this comment here, it should have been in the "Stairs Lift" thread. Apologies all around! Would have been eaten alive in a certain thread @ avs Nick ; not hard to jump to conclusions tangentially though it was a head scratcher |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 21, 2017 12:41:19 GMT -5
Oops not sure how I posted this comment here, it should have been in the "Stairs Lift" thread. Apologies all around! Would have been eaten alive in a certain thread @ avs Nick ; not hard to jump to conclusions tangentially though it was a head scratcher Im still scratching my head on this one! Yes, your right! Ive actually been banned for life for less over there! Me! Banned! Really? ? Much happier with my friends here. Thx buddy! |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Apr 21, 2017 12:54:36 GMT -5
Would have been eaten alive in a certain thread @ avs Nick ; not hard to jump to conclusions tangentially though it was a head scratcher Im still scratching my head on this one! Yes, your right! Ive actually been banned for life for less over there! Me! Banned! Really? ? Much happier with my friends here. Thx buddy! I am also banned for life at AVS, aka "Hive of Scum and Villainy." They do not like certain types of truth there. Oh, and I was a moderator on Home Theater Shack until the admin discovered I'm not a Christian. |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 21, 2017 13:12:37 GMT -5
Im still scratching my head on this one! Yes, your right! Ive actually been banned for life for less over there! Me! Banned! Really? ? Much happier with my friends here. Thx buddy! I am also banned for life at AVS, aka "Hive of Scum and Villainy." They do not like certain types of truth there. Oh, and I was a moderator on Home Theater Shack until the admin discovered I'm not a Christian. Sad indeed! I haven't missed anything over there at all. Blue Badge of Honor!! |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Apr 21, 2017 13:31:43 GMT -5
AH, so you know the used cars salesman,,,,,,,,,, Ive owned 3 oppo's over the years Nick but I still read comments on the 203 vis a vis disc reading and washing discs so a bit more R&D applied to the 203 would have been appreciated by those owners . There is a youtube comparison doing the rounds atm; pana vs oppo but I wont post it in deference to oppo ; see Ime a fanboy I posted that YouTube video over in the "Digital Disc Players" section if any one is interested in watching it. Link below. emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/48977/oppo-uhd-203?page=6&scrollTo=884396 |
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Post by skippy1977 on Apr 22, 2017 15:46:00 GMT -5
Keith, Thanks for your in depth thoughts on my questions. Much appreciated ! |
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)? After many years of using analog for stereo music the inclusion of the XMC-1 in my system and even more so Dirac I now use HDMI exclusively for all music listening. So the addition of advanced HDMI circuitry with the 205 has me seriously considering buying one to replace my Oppo 105D.
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Posted in wrong thread! Sorry for my confusion! Not sure how it happened,,,,,,,user error im sure! 
Ive owned 3 oppo's over the years Nick but I still read comments on the 203 vis a vis disc reading and washing discs so a bit more R&D applied to the 203 would have been appreciated by those owners . 
not sure how I posted this comment here, it should have been in the "Stairs Lift" thread. Apologies all around! 
