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Post by millst on Jun 16, 2017 11:51:48 GMT -5
It's not as simple as buying an expensive sub [from the well-respected ID manufacturers]. Even the SVS PB16-Ultra @$2500 is only going to hit OP's spec at ~86dB. Not sure if that's enough for OP since that spec doesn't mean anything without a target output level.
Sure, your chances are improved when you spend more, but most subs aren't designed for ultra low extension. Organ music is a niche. Sub makers optimize their designs towards being flat for the standard music range with enough deep extension to shake the room for movies. That's why people build horns, IB, etc.
-tm
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 16, 2017 12:32:23 GMT -5
Plus, a well-integrated subwoofer doesn't necessarily "shake the room" either. I have an IB using 4X AE 15" woofers, and it does not "shake the room." It will, however, make your stomach feel strange and cause the hairs on your arms to stand up with in-room subsonics that I've measured at 17Hz @ 112db at the listening position. Home theater and music subsonics do not produce boom-car shake. They CAN be made like that, but not if you want things to sound good.
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Post by jmilton on Jun 16, 2017 15:04:03 GMT -5
I don't know where this song registers in terms of frequency, but it certainly rumbles my room, especially the part starting around 2:05. The way I see it with subs, if you are the buying kind, not the building kind, and you really want audiophile quality, why not just go all the way with one of the better named brands, many of which have been mentioned already in this thread? Going all the way with subs isn't like going all the way with speakers. You can get some of the best subs on the planet, like say just for example the new SVS ones for $2000 or $2500. Not best bubs for the money, but best subs period. Of course you can always spend more, but I'm not talking about crazy stuff here. $2000 buys a lot of sub. Boom, if you had just kept that Def Tech, you would have been good for life on a sub. (Not my business why you got rid of it) And for two subs, you might have been able to find one used now for cheaper. Instead of spending time "d*cking" around trying to find that needle in a haystack, why not just bite the bullet, go all the way, and be done with it? That's what I would do. But as we've said before, you and I are quite different folks. This disc was used to test the new Outlaw Ultra x-13, the only single sub to achieve THX certification in America! www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/outlaw-audio-ultra-x13 |
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Post by Bonzo on Jun 16, 2017 17:12:08 GMT -5
It's not as simple as buying an expensive sub [from the well-respected ID manufacturers]. Even the SVS PB16-Ultra @$2500 is only going to hit OP's spec at ~86dB. Not sure if that's enough for OP since that spec doesn't mean anything without a target output level. The point I was trying to make was that unlike speakers, where performance and cost is all over the board, and much/most of which sounds better is personal taste, subs are much less so, to the point where for a decent amount the middle class person can afford a top tier sub. The same subs the rich folk are likely to purchase. For example, when I got my TV, I could have bought a very respectable decent performing TV of the same size for like $1000 - $1500. But the very best 65" TV on the entire planet was $3000. It's not often a regular person like me can buy the best there is (at the moment of course). So it was worth it to me. As for sound quality, subs certainly have characteristics, but they are much less "personal taste" than speakers. I would say they are more about your desired requirements. And similar to TV's, which can be bought strictly based on professional reviews, decent sub reviews can certainly narrow down the choices substantially, if not down to 2 or 3 to choose from. Like the brands that have been mentioned here. +1. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 17, 2017 5:46:47 GMT -5
Organ music IS a niche. But that doesn't mean that I don't like it now and then. Yes, my existing vented subs are good for 99% of the music I listen to, but for what I've got invested in my system, I want 100% instead.
As I said, I'll try Tom Vodenhall first at PSA. To the best of my knowledge, they don't do trade ins, but if they can at least sell me some shipping boxes for my subs, then I can get them sold. Once the existing subs are gone, I have other choices.
As to the recommendations made, THX certification means nothing to me. I'm buying for music, not movies. The HSU research and SVS recs sound reasonable, and PowerSound also sells some sealed box subs. Martin Logan has a good rep also, although they may be beyond what I want to spend. Even Axiom Audio has some larger-box subs with good specs.
It further occurs to me that adding a sub with lower frequency response may cause room issues that are not of concern with subs that don't go so low. I may also end up having to invest in bass traps... The ceiling corners would be amenable to corner trap installation, but on the floor, none of the corners could be trapped due to openings to other areas of the house.
But I digress... The first order of business is to trade in or sell the existing subs, and I can't do that unless Tom can sell me some original boxes with packings.
Boom
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Post by musicfan on Jun 17, 2017 8:30:09 GMT -5
Psa absolutely takes trades
They also sell boxes I believe for 50$ ea.
Also bass traps will do NOTHING for the frequencies your talking about (<100hz). Traps would need to be ~4-6' thick to tame those frequencies. THe way to tame those frequencies is with multiple subs. Also your size room will have very little benefit from a single or even dual sealed subs. The reason sealed subs get really low is due to their smooth roll off reinforced by cabin gain. Which our size room probably won't have much of. Your ported psa sounds should be plenty down to 17hz or so which I don't think any music goes lower. (MAYBE pipe organs lowest. Might be 10hz)
You need to measure your FR with REW before you start chasing low teens in the subs
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 17, 2017 12:21:18 GMT -5
PSA offers a VERY generous trade in program. I'm now waiting for Tom to make me a recommendation on sealed sub(s) for my room.
I'm also aware of the "many are better than fewer" philosophy in subwoofers, but I'm truly wondering if I need that, given the Lyngdorf's room correction...
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 17, 2017 12:35:19 GMT -5
PSA offers a VERY generous trade in program. I'm now waiting for Tom to make me a recommendation on sealed sub(s) for my room. I'm also aware of the "many are better than fewer" philosophy in subwoofers, but I'm truly wondering if I need that, given the Lyngdorf's room correction... That's good to know about PSA. As far as the question "is room correction better" the generic answer is no, you can only compensate for the laws of physics so much with DSP. Acoustics are still acoustics. But the real question is "does it matter?" Meaning your room and your setup can both be very sub-optimal but it really doesn't matter if you like the results. It's the user's subjective opinion that matters. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 17, 2017 16:17:16 GMT -5
Actually, my room sounds exceptionally good in the bass without ANY room correction. All the electronic correction schemes I've tried have had little impact in the bass. My gut feeling is that dual subs might be an improvement (with no room correction), but with the room correction, I may not need duals.
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Post by copperpipe on Jun 17, 2017 16:52:24 GMT -5
I'd go with dual subs. You may want to replace the Lyngdorf at some point and then there goes your room correction. Besides, like you say, electronic room correction is hard to get right, especially for a wide sweetspot.
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 17, 2017 17:08:13 GMT -5
Even with EQ, my vented subs just aren't doing it for organ pedal tones. Who makes inexpensive subs that go to 15 Hz. at -3 dB ANECHOIC (no room reinforcement)? Velodyne has been my subwoofer of choice. Rated for 15hz with a 3000 watt ( peak power) amp. I've got a small but nice collection of church organ discs for you know what. Bill |
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Post by Axis on Jun 17, 2017 17:11:05 GMT -5
Even with EQ, my vented subs just aren't doing it for organ pedal tones. Who makes inexpensive subs that go to 15 Hz. at -3 dB ANECHOIC (no room reinforcement)? Velodyne has been my subwoofer of choice. Rated for 15hz with a 3000 watt ( peak power) amp. I've got a small but nice collection of church organ discs for you know what. Bill I recommended Velodyne for a look and good to see they are still making good subs for a good price.  |
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Post by vneal on Jun 18, 2017 4:17:10 GMT -5
ANSWER to the Question
no one
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 18, 2017 5:49:40 GMT -5
I might disagree, vneal - I had no idea that PSA took trade-ins until this thread happened. With the trade-in value for my existing equipment, a "cheap & deep" new PSA sub becomes feasible. So, for my particular question, I'd say that it HAS been answered. The only "cheaper & deeper" option would be a DIY. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 7:03:02 GMT -5
Even with EQ, my vented subs just aren't doing it for organ pedal tones. Who makes inexpensive subs that go to 15 Hz. at -3 dB ANECHOIC (no room reinforcement)?That's an oxymoron if I've ever seen one and especially considering the semantics of the word inexpensive. That said, if $1500 is inexpensive or at least very reasonable for your requirements then Jim Milton beat me to it. Even before I reached his post in this my first time seeing this thread I had the new Outlaw Audio Ultra-X13 in mind. I had not yet seen this review but I did see a detailed preview of this sub and said immediately to myself: Bingo! Based on my experience with my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus, if I were buying a new sub today for $1500 or less the Ultra-X13 would be a no-brainer for top consideration. 15Hz at -3dB's is a tough goal that many claim but very few meet at $1500 or less. (OK, 17Hz is pretty close.  ) |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 18, 2017 8:21:49 GMT -5
With trade-in, I can get a PSA sealed-box subwoofer, the S-3601 with dual 18" drivers and an in-room response of 7 to 11 Hz. (+/- 3dB from 17 to 200 Hz.) for less.
I've also discovered that selling a high-quality used subwoofer on CraigsList for anything higher than a yard-sale-giveaway price is next to impossible. You can't ship subs due to high weight and high likelihood of shipping damage, and I've tried for months for a local sale without success.
The trade-in option is my best bet and I find the trade-in value is greater than what I expected for a cash sale locally. So my business remains with PSA despite the other available options.
My idea of "inexpensive" is less than $1,000. Now the S-3601 has a list price of twice that, but with my trade-ins, the out of pocket is "inexpensive." Now one could argue that "giving away" my existing subs is false accounting, but considering how much less they are worth on the local market...
Other than an automobile, nothing depreciates faster than an upscale subwoofer. Fact!
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 18, 2017 8:55:03 GMT -5
The S-3601 looks awesome. I've not heard that particular model but I suspect it will be great. Good choice.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 18, 2017 9:18:15 GMT -5
The S-3601 looks awesome. I've not heard that particular model but I suspect it will be great. Good choice. I value your opinion. Thanks for sharing it. |
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Post by garbulky on Jun 18, 2017 10:33:16 GMT -5
The S-3601 looks awesome. I've not heard that particular model but I suspect it will be great. Good choice. I value your opinion. Thanks for sharing it. Don't forget everybody recommends dual subwoofers! If you think the lingy is going to be correcting bass that well, you'll be right only in the short term. You will notice the difference in the long term. Even axiom's head honcho said he would use two ep600's over a single ep800 (definitely more powerful). |
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Post by MusicHead on Jun 18, 2017 12:55:46 GMT -5
Congrats for the purchase, Boom. Buy another one later on and you are set for life (well, maybe...) On the topic of subs, I found this to be an entertaining reading: www.themasterswitch.com/best-subwoofersThor's Hammer just cracked me up. Ah, those marketing guys... :-) |
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