KeithL
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Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Sept 26, 2017 8:57:02 GMT -5
I've got to agree with that. When I go to an actual theater and watch a movie, I find the surround sound aspects annoying as often as I find them pleasant. (I hear some character muttering back behind me, and turn my head to watch his face, or turn when I hear the aliens sneaking stealthily up behind me, and....... all I see is a blank wall.) I remember when there was a promise of an image that went all the way around... but it never happened. Likewise, when I watch a battle, I actually prefer the view the fleet admiral has...... Watching the battle spread out in front of me from the bridge of my flagship. Sure, the occasional bullet whizzing by, or plane flying in from behind me, adds realism. However, to be quite honest, I have no desire to be in the middle of the battle, with people running all around me, and stuff I can't see happening behind me. (When I was a kid I used to read a lot of sci-fi, and I usually pictured the action spread out in front of me in my mind. I guess all I want is for the movie to give me that - only better.) Likewise, when I watch sports (which is rarely), I really don't WANT them to be excessively "immersive". (If I wanted to be in the middle of a football game, or a tennis match, then I'd PLAY the game myself.) And, when I go to a concert, the orchestra is pretty well always in front of me, and the band is in front of me on the stage. (I've never had a seat in the middle of the orchestra. I've been onstage with bands; it usually involves trying not to get tripped over, and a lot more annoying distractions that sitting in the audience.) I place good sound quality above all..... And, to me, that means natural sound.... (or, at least, audio that sounds like the mixing engineer intended). Which means a lack of the sort of artifacts that make sound NOT sound natural.... Which is why I don't like DACs that make wire brush cymbals not sound like real metal... And that make voices sound like something other than human... Before you vinyl or tape folks make anything out of that: I don't think surface noise, tape saturation, pops, and ticks, do much to enhance realism either. (I find any of those in sufficient quantity to be an insurmountable distraction that completely ruins the experience for me.) I have nothing against surround sound, and even find it pleasant sometimes, but it just doesn't excite me..... I am not slamming those with full blown HT. I tried it and it is not for me |
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Post by brubacca on Sept 26, 2017 9:01:20 GMT -5
also follow up question... 2 channel purists can sound very hypocritical.... "its a trap" "who needs 11 channels" "its overkill and a money grab" etc etc etc yet for 2 channel...they (just generalizing for the argument...i understand this is an unfair blanket statement) will think of anything to improve the sound to make it sound more "realistic"...i/e/ expensive DACs (its all just 1's and 0's) expensive CD players....MONOBLOCKS...expensive cables...etc... sounds like 2 channel can be as big and expensive a rabbit hole as HT....just different content. and audiobill...who said surround sound movies is for explosions...some of THE BEST surround usage is used in dramas.. again no offense meant to everyone...just trying to get the conversation flowing that HT and 2 channel are more alike than different IMHO The rabbit hole is different. I'll use myself as an example. In the 90s I saved up and bought a really nice $2,000 HT pre-amp and a $1,000 amp. It was a B&K Ref 10. That unit had S-Video and Composite Video. The onboard Codec was Prologic and Dolby Digital, that is it. I probably couldn't pay you to use it as your featured HT device. Now apply that same $3,000 to a 2 channel rig and for arguments sake say a NAIM, McIntosh or Krell Integrated amp it would still be very good in a 2 Channel system. I realize that we are talking about a 20 year swing here, but that is my ultimate point. In my opinion HT is going to force you to upgrade every few years, where a good 2 Channel setup you have the choice. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 26, 2017 9:11:07 GMT -5
I have both, the Home Theatre and two channel systems coexist in the same space, I have a large room and a tolerant wife. This allows me to indulge my long time enjoyment of stereo music, and also my enjoyment of home theatre and movies - since I tend to prefer Sci-fi / Fantasy / Action movies, surround modes add a lot to the realism. I think the center channel also helps with dialog on ‘character’ movies (though phantom center can work very well). The two systems used to be (almost) totally separate, with a tape out cable allowing me to share sources between the two.
When I got the XMC-1 however, I felt the two channel performance was so good that I dropped my stereo preamp, this simplified things a lot and I pulled several cables out. It also allows me to share my subs with the 2C if I like. Of course I can play music through my HT system and I could see a day when I drop the stereo gear, but for now (to me) I have the best if both worlds. I will probably give Atmos a try, my room can handle it.
But what any of us say really just applies to our own situation and preferences, if you don’t listen to surround or don’t find the added realism / expense / configuration / complexity / aesthetics worth the enjoyment you derive from it, then let it go and lighten the load. Most of the music/sound/dialog is in front of you, no reason not to enjoy it fully.
Disclosure: I’m a boomer, well over 50 ...
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 26, 2017 9:36:08 GMT -5
You know what.....the whole damm thing is a pain....BUT, a REALLY GOOD pain😃!
It takes each one of us enthusiasts on a unique journey, whatever that may be.
20 years ago (or so) I got tired of going downstairs to what some refer to as the man cave, with a great stereo, and then going to the living room to watch a program on a 19 inch tv 📺.
That got me started on a single system to do it all in the best fashion I could come up with.
I have since moved into a larger home and much is different.
I now have that integrated room that does it all.....
The term stereo has lost its meaning for me, but I don’t mind the term “soundstage” until it gets tossed around with peripherals like wires and such.
I’m referring to using 5 speaker 🔊 locations plus the subwoofer for adjusting the “stereo soundstage” to my liking, as for me personally, having a music source coming from two locations is just too limiting.
When this is done, the surrounds need to be larger and as closely matched to the mains as possible.
Bill
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Post by Cogito on Sept 26, 2017 9:40:13 GMT -5
Well, if you're budget limited, I feel your money is better spent on a good two channel system than a mediocre surround system. If your budget allows, you can have both with little compromise.
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Post by sahmen on Sept 26, 2017 11:55:31 GMT -5
Full disclosure : I am thinking about getting the Smyth Realiser A16 so that I can enjoy Realistic 16-channel 3d immersive audio (i.e. Atmos, DTS-X, Auro 3d) on headphones, because the living/listening spaces in my current residence can only accommodate 2.1/5.1 channel systems... I shall be moving to a new place in the near future, but even in the new residence, I do not think the spouse will ever tolerate anything more complicated than a 2.2/7.2 system in one room. Even that remains to be seen, because so far, she is allowing me to get by with a 2.2/5.2 system. and quite grudgingly at that... She likes the music and surround sound when they're playing, just not the site of "too many" speakers, wires, and audio gear in the same room... That's somewhat paradoxical, but c'est la vie...
That is what makes the Smyth Realiser A16 solution appealing to me... I guess that means I am not quite ready to give up surround/3d immersive audio just yet    Personally, I am not a fan of the aesthetics of the prototype A16, which is pictured above. If I go for this, I'd get the 2U rack mount design version which is pictured below... From the viewpoints of innards and features, the two versions are strictly identical   |
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Post by musicfan on Sept 26, 2017 12:07:52 GMT -5
I've got to agree with that. When I go to an actual theater and watch a movie, I find the surround sound aspects annoying as often as I find them pleasant. (I hear some character muttering back behind me, and turn my head to watch his face, or turn when I hear the aliens sneaking stealthily up behind me, and....... all I see is a blank wall.) I remember when there was a promise of an image that went all the way around... but it never happened. Likewise, when I watch a battle, I actually prefer the view the fleet admiral has...... Watching the battle spread out in front of me from the bridge of my flagship. Sure, the occasional bullet whizzing by, or plane flying in from behind me, adds realism. However, to be quite honest, I have no desire to be in the middle of the battle, with people running all around me, and stuff I can't see happening behind me. (When I was a kid I used to read a lot of sci-fi, and I usually pictured the action spread out in front of me in my mind. I guess all I want is for the movie to give me that - only better.) Likewise, when I watch sports (which is rarely), I really don't WANT them to be excessively "immersive". (If I wanted to be in the middle of a football game, or a tennis match, then I'd PLAY the game myself.) And, when I go to a concert, the orchestra is pretty well always in front of me, and the band is in front of me on the stage. (I've never had a seat in the middle of the orchestra. I've been onstage with bands; it usually involves trying not to get tripped over, and a lot more annoying distractions that sitting in the audience.) I place good sound quality above all..... And, to me, that means natural sound.... (or, at least, audio that sounds like the mixing engineer intended). Which means a lack of the sort of artifacts that make sound NOT sound natural.... Which is why I don't like DACs that make wire brush cymbals not sound like real metal... And that make voices sound like something other than human... Before you vinyl or tape folks make anything out of that: I don't think surface noise, tape saturation, pops, and ticks, do much to enhance realism either. (I find any of those in sufficient quantity to be an insurmountable distraction that completely ruins the experience for me.) I have nothing against surround sound, and even find it pleasant sometimes, but it just doesn't excite me..... I am not slamming those with full blown HT. I tried it and it is not for meyou you cant have it both ways...YOU HEAR IN REAL LIFE IN SURROUND SOUND....so you cant WANT "natural sound" and it NOT be engulfing/surounding and immersive when your at an orchestra performance..their sound bounces off the wall behind you and around you....so you ARE hearing surround sound and almost EVERY real life performance is amplified and played through speakers....so you arent hearing EXACTLY what the real instrument sounds like... as far as movies...you dont want to hear a character muttering behind cause you will turn your head?? really? SO when you are out to dinner...everytime someone else in the restaurant talks your head turns on a swivel? I call bs on this one lmao.. so what you are saying doesnt make sense since you are stating things from both sides of your mouth (or in reality fingers lol) |
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 26, 2017 12:31:06 GMT -5
Two Channel Rules!!!
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Post by Loop 7 on Sept 26, 2017 12:31:34 GMT -5
I'm still in 5.1 / 1080p and greatly enjoy my theater. I'm a movie fanatic but, when it comes to upgrades, I tend to put the money into 2 channel.
If I had a much larger house and could build, from scratch, a custom theater, I know I would want to implement current technologies.
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Post by melm on Sept 26, 2017 13:18:13 GMT -5
I like 2 channel music, but also enjoy Home Theater. My Emotiva gear allows me to enjoy both. Of course, in life, we hear in multichannel. The two ear' analogy is a bit misleading. Cup your hands behind your ears and you'll notice an immediate loss of ambiance unless you are in a very quiet room. Of course two channel can excite a room with good acoustics, just like a real orchestra or ensemble can. So 2 channel is fine in a good room. But some of my symphonic blu-rays and other concerts are immeasurably helped by transporting me (although imperfectly) to the concert hall or outdoor venue. And a well done movie surround mix can't be beat. I'm not jumping to Atmos... but sticking with 7.1 in my two listening rooms. And often, for music, only the front channels are on.
mel
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Post by gus4emo on Sept 26, 2017 13:30:02 GMT -5
Music in 2.1, any movie in surround, I want it in surround, watching baseball and my team is home, especially playoffs, I want it in surround, some TV shows sound awesome in surround, God bless choices!
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DYohn
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 18,487
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Post by DYohn on Sept 26, 2017 17:55:32 GMT -5
Do whatever makes you happy. That's the whole point of this hobby.
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 26, 2017 18:58:53 GMT -5
Going to the movie theatre has no appeal for me, parking, ques, cost, noisy neighbours, uncomfortable seats, poor food choices etc. So much easier just to pop a BD in and sit back in comfort. As a result some level of HT will always be on my list and stereo music is where I live, every day.
I'm very happy with where I am right now with my systems, that both live in the same space and use quite a bit of common equipment. The 2.1 stereo music system based around an XSP-1 a pair of XPA-1L's and an XPA-100 powered DIY sub woofer sounds pretty damn good to me. Similarly very happy with the 5.1 HT system based around a UMC-200, an XPA-5 (3 channels) plus the pair of XPA-1L's and the sub woofer.
After years (maybe decades better describes it) of updating expensive AVR's I've come to the conclusion that UMC-1/UMC-200/MC-700 level processors have the best cost vs sound quality equation, when coupled with good power amps that last a very long time. Personally I'm just not chasing the RMC-1 dream and then being put off updating too long because of the cost. I can likely update processors as required for the rest of my life and not spend as much as one RMC-1.
That's my view, the 2.1 stereo music system is almost ageless, it's not likely to go out of date anytime soon. Updating processors for a few hundred $'s every 3 years or so is not a huge burden. As DYohn posted, that's what makes me happy.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by gus4emo on Sept 26, 2017 20:04:04 GMT -5
Going to the movie theatre has no appeal for me, parking, ques, cost, noisy neighbours, uncomfortable seats, poor food choices etc. So much easier just to pop a BD in and sit back in comfort. As a result some level of HT will always be on my list and stereo music is where I live, every day. I'm very happy with where I am right now with my systems, that both live in the same space and use quite a bit of common equipment. The 2.1 stereo music system based around an XSP-1 a pair of XPA-1L's and an XPA-100 powered DIY sub woofer sounds pretty damn good to me. Similarly very happy with the 5.1 HT system based around a UMC-200, an XPA-5 (3 channels) plus the pair of XPA-1L's and the sub woofer. After years (maybe decades better describes it) of updating expensive AVR's I've come to the conclusion that UMC-1/UMC-200/MC-700 level processors have the best cost vs sound quality equation, when coupled with good power amps that last a very long time. Personally I'm just not chasing the RMC-1 dream and then being put off updating too long because of the cost. I can likely update processors as required for the rest of my life and not spend as much as one RMC-1. That's my view, the 2.1 stereo music system is almost ageless, it's not likely to go out of date anytime soon. Updating processors for a few hundred $'s every 3 years or so is not a huge burden. As DYohn posted, that's what makes me happy. Cheers Gary Like they say, to each it's own, I like my set up as well, but when a movie I want to see AT THE MOVIES, AMC Theater in my area has a real big screen, awesome sound, recliner seats through out, snacks options are pretty good. ..... other than that, I'm poping up that blue ray.... |
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Post by danfan78 on Feb 18, 2018 4:43:30 GMT -5
I much prefer my music over movies anyday. My family is unimpressed with the home theater and complains about the volume of it. My teenager could care less about playing XBOX with his friends through it. Prefers the TV speaker. Wow. However, as my system has morphed, 2.1 is the obvious emphasis. I have three different pairs of mains that I switch out, a dedicated music sub, and was using a DBX for equalization (will be trying Dirac soon). HT was always secondary. I do like having the ability for HT and multichannel on tap when I need it though. Also, I already own the equipment, have wiring and surrounds installed, etc. and would probably miss it at some point if it were all gone. I will say this. I own live albums and concert DVDs and like the 5.1 sound for those, so there's that.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 18, 2018 5:37:42 GMT -5
I like surround sound (and I'm also an old fuddy-duddy). What I don't like about surround sound is the extra clutter, extra wires, extra boxes, and the fact that all those things make my living room look like an industrial park.
Were I building a home from scratch, I'd have a dedicated 2-channel listening room with a large pull-down screen / projector setup and all the surround wires and speakers built into the walls & ceilings. That way, I could have stereo when I wanted it & full surround when I watched a movie. But I don't anticipate building any houses in my near future.
If inexpensive, inconspicuous, wireless surround speakers were available, I might be able to tolerate a surround sound setup in my current living room, but I don't see what I'm looking for yet. Hopefully, in the near future...
So I think it unfair to claim that the desire for surround sound decreases with age. But it is fair to say that other priorities can compete with surround sound as one has to contend with children, pets, grandchildren, downsizing, and the ever-present budget.
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Post by vcautokid on Feb 18, 2018 6:18:45 GMT -5
What a fun topic to discuss. For me it started as monaural and then stereo. I think we might be mixing up intent and execution a bit here. Keith is right and if we mix and master correctly, surround can be very convincing. Reality is often very different many times. I used to have a saying that once your audience pulls their head away from the screen to figure out where that sound came from, you lost your audience. The sound should be a natural and believable portion of the presentation. How did the Director want that sound to help define a moment or theme of the presentation. It is always about "story". Does the sound add or take away from the presentation. I frequently do 2.1 and 5.1 as the situation calls for. Allot of times it is 2.0, or 2.1 for my streams where the native audio is stereo to begin with.
As an aside, I know of these video computer courses you can take to learn Directing, and sound production and more so I can better understand what the presentation is more about. Would it influence my playback choice? It very well could. I think it would give me a better understanding.
I hear you on the upgrade this and that especially with HDMI especially being a bit of an annoyance. Atmos is a tough sell for some too. I don't know how much I would use it, but I am curious to use it for VR. But I can get allot of the sensation through headphone DSP too. I don't know if like is more where I am at in so much as how I want the presentation done at that time. It is nice to have options. So 2.0 2.1 or whatever is great as long as you get there your way. The world of audio is constantly changing and much of the high end especially. It has to be. However great 2 channel or stereo is never far away from me. It really is part of me since I was 5 years old. I hope everyone finds their way too because you should see what and how and where you can hear. It still is allot of fun, and enjoyment to be had no matter how you make it happen.
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Post by wilburthegoose on Feb 18, 2018 8:17:22 GMT -5
One of the big issues for me is the lack of movies not targeted at 15 year olds.
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Post by bluemeanies on Feb 18, 2018 9:00:53 GMT -5
I have the best of both worlds but to be honest over the last two years or more I am more drive by 2channel and have invested my money into music listening rather than stepping up my HT. From the get go I was never interested in ATMOS. MY 6.2 HT system does a very good job.
Once I became interested more in 2channel I thought of eliminating my HT however the Mrs who is near retirement what's to enjoy movies in the comfort of our home rather than go out to a movie and deal with parking, crowds, and the expense of a bag of popcorn 🍿.
So, the theater still exists and admittedly I still enjoy it BUT I do not intend to step it up to a new projector or processor.
When the time comes where the projector or processor dies then it will be time to re-evaluate.
Does it stay or does it go.
Your not crazy V.
Do what you think is best for YOU!....and the Mrs if appropriate.
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Post by localnet on Feb 18, 2018 9:46:31 GMT -5
I thought about it, getting rid of the gear. Gear that I have never really been able to enjoy due to the now x wife. All set up in my new home, and I did upgrade the old Denon to one of their new units, which I am glad I did purchase. And that is one thing, this new tech, fantastic. I have Alexa hooked up to the Denon and Amazon Music. Just say Alexa, play Rolling Stones in living room... Even if everything is off, Alexa is able to turn it all on, other than the TV which I will eventually figure out... The gear takes up a heck of a lot of space, but looks damn cool, and sounds even better, especially in two channel. I wish I could get the same experience out of a boom box, but there is just something about towers, multiple subs and amps. ;-) I could ditch the Oppo unit, as all of my movie viewing and music is now on Netflix, iTunes or Amazon. Still a fun hobby, if you could or want to call it that. Myself, I just want good sound. The gear stays.  |
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I am not slamming those with full blown HT. I tried it and it is not for me
