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Post by davidl81 on Sept 26, 2017 14:48:55 GMT -5
Guys,
I currently have a Marantz SR7009 that I am using for my media room. My listening is 95% movies and very little music. I am wanting to upgrade my projector to 4K HDR and will will need to replace the AVR since it does not support HDR pass through (I have multiple devices and I do not want to bypass the AVR for the video signal). I have a XPA-2 for my R/L and a XPA-5 for the Center, SL/SR, and one set of ceiling speakers. The AVR powers my other 4 channels (7.2.4 Atmos Setup). I am debating do I just buy the Marantz SR7011 (or some other high quality AVR) that will support Atmos and 4K HDR, or do I buy the XMC-1? The XMC is about +/- $800 more, but I would also have to purchase another amp for the remaining 4 channels (most likely a BasX A-500). That would bring the total difference in price to closer to $1300. For mostly HT use would I notice any major difference in the XMC-1 compared to a high quality AVR? I know having the separate amp for the rear surround and in ceiling speaker in theory would help, but quite frankly the power demand on those speakers is so little that I feel as though the internal AVR amp and the BasX amp would be about a wash.
Basically I need someone to tell me if it is worth it to spend $1300 more for the XMC setup. I do like the fact that the XMC can be upgraded in the future which would have helped me if I started out with an XMC in the beginning. But Emotiva was very late in setting up the XMC for Dolby Atmos as I built the home about three years ago the the Marantz had the Atmos support already.
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bootman
Emo VIPs 
Typing useless posts on internet forums....
Posts: 9,358
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Post by bootman on Sept 26, 2017 15:36:11 GMT -5
If you are happy with the sound of your setup today and need Atmos compatibility NOW, get the SR7011 since it is available today.
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 26, 2017 15:38:29 GMT -5
Now is not a huge rush. I can wait for the XMC to get the Atmos upgrade. Do you think the XMC would "sound" any better than the SR7011?
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 26, 2017 16:05:51 GMT -5
I'll kick off with this, a good power amp is a good power amp for a long long time, years decades even. There is quite frankly no comparison to an AVR, that will be out of date in a handful of years at best, making that we throw away perfectly good power amps way before their time. As a result right now you might be looking at more up front cost but the life time cost of separate power amps will be way less.
My experience was that the only difference in sound between a low cost AVR and a high cost AVR was the amount of grunt, how many watts. Which BTW were always grossly overstated in an all channels driven sense. That's the first option, find a low cost AVR that has all features you need, with decent sound quality and don't pay extra for watts, use good quality power amplification instead. This time around, next time, the time after and the time after that. You'll be way in front in both sound and wallet.
Separate processors are always going to be slower to market than AVR's which have hugely higher volumes and really only sell on how many boxes they tick, not so much on how good they sound. So if we always want the latest boxes ticked AVR's will be first every time. But if it's sound quality that we are after and are prepared to be patient, then a separate processor is the way forward.
Since the XMC-1 is not yet upgradable to Atmos/DTSX and won't be for some months your question is somewhat premature. Personally I'd look around for another, second hand XPA-5 now and then use the intervening months to save up for the processing part of the equation. Bypassing the video is not a big deal, I'm currently doing it for the ATV4K and the Oppo 203. Of course it's not permanent but what it does do is to give me time to make a processor choice with not so many balls in the air as there is right now. It's a mine field of compromises, HDR, Dolby Vision, 10/24/30/50/60 Hz, Atmos, DTSX, Auro, HDMI 2.0A or is it b, HDCP 2.2 etc etc where I've yet to find anything that covers the bases that I want at a comparable price.
That's probably not the black and white answer you wanted but it's how I see the market right now.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 26, 2017 16:08:40 GMT -5
Now is not a huge rush. I can wait for the XMC to get the Atmos upgrade. Do you think the XMC would "sound" any better than the SR7011? An XMC-1 powering a pair of XPA-5's and an XPA-2 would be so far ahead in sound quality it's not even a close comparison. Cheers Gary |
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 26, 2017 21:42:01 GMT -5
Now is not a huge rush. I can wait for the XMC to get the Atmos upgrade. Do you think the XMC would "sound" any better than the SR7011? An XMC-1 powering a pair of XPA-5's and an XPA-2 would be so far ahead in sound quality it's not even a close comparison. Cheers Gary There is really the answer then. If you think an XMC 1 would really sound that much better it would be worth the cost. On your other post you referred to powering speakers with an AVR. Im currently running my main speakers with amps, only running the surrounds with the AVR. I do like the idea of looking out for a used Gen 2 XPA5. It’s way overkill for what I’ll need it to do, but who knows what I may get into in the future. |
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 26, 2017 21:45:14 GMT -5
Now is not a huge rush. I can wait for the XMC to get the Atmos upgrade. Do you think the XMC would "sound" any better than the SR7011? An XMC-1 powering a pair of XPA-5's and an XPA-2 would be so far ahead in sound quality it's not even a close comparison. Cheers Gary Just so I’m clear do you think the XMC with the amps would be that big of a difference than the SR7011 w/ my current XPA2 and XPA5 running most of the speakers? |
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 26, 2017 22:43:09 GMT -5
An XMC-1 powering a pair of XPA-5's and an XPA-2 would be so far ahead in sound quality it's not even a close comparison. Just so I’m clear do you think the XMC with the amps would be that big of a difference than the SR7011 w/ my current XPA2 and XPA5 running most of the speakers? Hell yes, Atmos and DTSX feature object oriented sound such that every speaker has the potential to have as much impact as every other speaker. It just depends on what the movie sound mixer and the director decide. Experiences like a rocket launching from behind your right shoulder travelling over your head and impacting the target on the screen in front of you kicking the sub woofer into action. The formats give the sound mixer the freedom and ability to do that with full point of source impact. It's not matrixed, manipulated, synthesised to sort of sound like it comes for somewhere over there, they can be very specific pin point accurate. Atmos and DTSX are not just about ceiling speakers so you can have rain drops falling on your head (sic), they are barely scratching the surface of what's possible from all of the objects. For the non action movie fans, think about the opening scene in Carousel, where the camera pans past the dancing girls on the left, through the crowd laughing and taking, beside the cashier counting coins and finally up to the carousel itself revolving past, right to left. Using object based formats all of that can be perfectly located to its specific sound point of source. Amplifier grunt, slam, impact is what is required together with a processor that can place it where the sound mixer put it. Plus of course speakers that can handle it. Cheers Gary |
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Post by mick on Sept 26, 2017 22:57:22 GMT -5
Just so I’m clear do you think the XMC with the amps would be that big of a difference than the SR7011 w/ my current XPA2 and XPA5 running most of the speakers? Hell yes, Atmos and DTSX feature object oriented sound such that every speaker has the potential to have as much impact as every other speaker. It just depends on what the movie sound mixer and the director decide. Experiences like a rocket launching from behind your right shoulder travelling over your head and impacting the target on the screen in front of you kicking the sub woofer into action. The formats give the sound mixer the freedom and ability to do that with full point of source impact. It's not matrixed, manipulated, synthesised to sort of sound like it comes for somewhere over there, they can be very specific pin point accurate. Atmos and DTSX are not just about ceiling speakers so you can have rain drops falling on your head (sic), they are barely scratching the surface of what's possible from all of the objects. For the non action movie fans, think about the opening scene in Carousel, where the camera pans past the dancing girls on the left, through the crowd laughing and taking, beside the cashier counting coins and finally up to the carousel itself revolving past, right to left. Using object based formats all of that can be perfectly located to its specific sound point of source. Amplifier grunt, slam, impact is what is required together with a processor that can place it where the sound mixer put it. Plus of course speakers that can handle it. Cheers Gary |
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Post by mick on Sept 26, 2017 22:59:02 GMT -5
Just so I’m clear do you think the XMC with the amps would be that big of a difference than the SR7011 w/ my current XPA2 and XPA5 running most of the speakers? Hell yes, Atmos and DTSX feature object oriented sound such that every speaker has the potential to have as much impact as every other speaker. It just depends on what the movie sound mixer and the director decide. Experiences like a rocket launching from behind your right shoulder travelling over your head and impacting the target on the screen in front of you kicking the sub woofer into action. The formats give the sound mixer the freedom and ability to do that with full point of source impact. It's not matrixed, manipulated, synthesised to sort of sound like it comes for somewhere over there, they can be very specific pin point accurate. Atmos and DTSX are not just about ceiling speakers so you can have rain drops falling on your head (sic), they are barely scratching the surface of what's possible from all of the objects. For the non action movie fans, think about the opening scene in Carousel, where the camera pans past the dancing girls on the left, through the crowd laughing and taking, beside the cashier counting coins and finally up to the carousel itself revolving past, right to left. Using object based formats all of that can be perfectly located to its specific sound point of source. Amplifier grunt, slam, impact is what is required together with a processor that can place it where the sound mixer put it. Plus of course speakers that can handle it. Cheers Gary Thanks Gary,
Thanks explains a lot.
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Post by pknaz on Sept 26, 2017 23:45:06 GMT -5
I went from an SR6010 (basically the same processing as the SR7010, not sure how much the SR7010 differs from the SR7011) with an XPA-7 and XPA-2 powering my speakers to an XMC-1, the difference in sound quality was dramatic. If you just need extra amp channels for your atmos speakers, the A500 would be a perfect match for those. You could also get a triggered AC outlet (They're pretty easy to DIY with dirt cheap parts from online retailers, too) and use the 12v trigger out of the XMC to power up/down your SR7011. Using the 7.1 (or 9.1, or 5.1, whatever it has available) inputs, you could leverage it as your amplifier for your atoms speakers. While the amps in the Marantz might not be very powerful, they're decent amplifiers.
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 27, 2017 7:15:01 GMT -5
Just so I’m clear do you think the XMC with the amps would be that big of a difference than the SR7011 w/ my current XPA2 and XPA5 running most of the speakers? Hell yes, Atmos and DTSX feature object oriented sound such that every speaker has the potential to have as much impact as every other speaker. It just depends on what the movie sound mixer and the director decide. Experiences like a rocket launching from behind your right shoulder travelling over your head and impacting the target on the screen in front of you kicking the sub woofer into action. The formats give the sound mixer the freedom and ability to do that with full point of source impact. It's not matrixed, manipulated, synthesised to sort of sound like it comes for somewhere over there, they can be very specific pin point accurate. Atmos and DTSX are not just about ceiling speakers so you can have rain drops falling on your head (sic), they are barely scratching the surface of what's possible from all of the objects. For the non action movie fans, think about the opening scene in Carousel, where the camera pans past the dancing girls on the left, through the crowd laughing and taking, beside the cashier counting coins and finally up to the carousel itself revolving past, right to left. Using object based formats all of that can be perfectly located to its specific sound point of source. Amplifier grunt, slam, impact is what is required together with a processor that can place it where the sound mixer put it. Plus of course speakers that can handle it. Cheers Gary Gary, Thanks for this great explanation! I think I’ll go this route and get the XMC-1. I think I will hold off until the Atmos upgrade comes out for it. I’ll keep looking on the board for a 5 channel amp. |
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 27, 2017 8:41:31 GMT -5
“XMC-1 Versus AV Receiver”
No such thing.....
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Post by millst on Sept 27, 2017 9:32:16 GMT -5
Yeah, the AV receiver actually has the features the OP needs...
-tm
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Post by audiogeek on Sept 27, 2017 12:03:04 GMT -5
I haven't had a receiver in my system for many years, but I went from an Acurus prepro to a UMC-1 to an XMC-1 over a 15 yr period. Each step was a big jump in sound quality. I can't imagine any receiver touching the XMC-1, except maybe super expensive $5k pcs like Arcam.
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Post by overtheair on Oct 5, 2017 20:29:52 GMT -5
While specific to OPs requirements I think this question is actually interesting in general because I suspect others are going through the same or at least similar considerations and certainly I am. While most are likely not in the fortunate position of already possessing 7 channels of XPA power (although happily I do have an XPA-5), they may well be considering a full pre/pro solution based on XMC-1 or perhaps the XMC-2 Gen 3 (which IIRC will be a cut down version of the RMC-1 using the same chassis and at least some common boards) versus an AVR from someone like Marantz augmented with external amplification. Something not touched on directly so far which seems worth some consideration vis-a-vis amplification is room size/speaker distance, speaker sensitivity, speaker impedance and speaker power handling along with how loud someone likes to listen to home theater, all the way up to 85db reference and 105dB peaks (hopefully not louder if they value their hearing!) The following two links provide calculators and in the case of Acoustic Frontiers a discussion on how much amplifier power may be required. It suggests to me that at least some external amplification is required for AVR based solutions to hit reference in many (most?) user cases. Amplifier Power - Acoustic FrontiersCrown AudioHow a comparison of an A-500 amp versus 4 or 6 channels driven from say a Marantz SR7012 AVR (with the remaining channels in a 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 system being supported externally with additional Emotiva amps) is anyone's guess but the amplifier specs don't look too dissimilar in this use case, so I don't think we should be too quick to dismiss limited amplifier channel use from an AVR as OP proposed. Which sounds better between an AVR versus XMC-1 or better Emotiva pre-pro is of course subjective but something not insignificant to consider is the listening environment and how sophisticated room correction needs to be. Dirac seems to be highly regarded and used by an increasing number of leading and respected brands, including those producing processors way above the RMC-1 price point, let alone XMC-1 or XMC-2 G3 price points, and so should be factored into comparisons with AVRs that typically use Audyssey. Lastly as a counter consideration. Something I found interesting was a comparison on AVSForum between different Marantz AVRs and pre-pros in which the listeners were surprised when they weren't able to distinguish differences across products with a fairly significant price difference (unfortunately I didn't save the link for reference). This could of course just be that Marantz is leveraging essentially the same components and design across the range of products. However, I do wonder with my somewhat ancient ears whether I would really hear any benefit in higher quality solutions than say a SR-6012/7012 since I, like the OP, use my home theater almost exclusively for video entertainment rather than critical music listening. Still I am in no hurry so can wait for the availability of the Emotiva pre-pros before deciding. Just my 2c. |
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Post by maseline97 on Jan 28, 2018 20:03:23 GMT -5
While specific to OPs requirements I think this question is actually interesting in general because I suspect others are going through the same or at least similar considerations and certainly I am. While most are likely not in the fortunate position of already possessing 7 channels of XPA power (although happily I do have an XPA-5), they may well be considering a full pre/pro solution based on XMC-1 or perhaps the XMC-2 Gen 3 (which IIRC will be a cut down version of the RMC-1 using the same chassis and at least some common boards) versus an AVR from someone like Marantz augmented with external amplification. Something not touched on directly so far which seems worth some consideration vis-a-vis amplification is room size/speaker distance, speaker sensitivity, speaker impedance and speaker power handling along with how loud someone likes to listen to home theater, all the way up to 85db reference and 105dB peaks (hopefully not louder if they value their hearing!) The following two links provide calculators and in the case of Acoustic Frontiers a discussion on how much amplifier power may be required. It suggests to me that at least some external amplification is required for AVR based solutions to hit reference in many (most?) user cases. Amplifier Power - Acoustic FrontiersCrown AudioHow a comparison of an A-500 amp versus 4 or 6 channels driven from say a Marantz SR7012 AVR (with the remaining channels in a 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 system being supported externally with additional Emotiva amps) is anyone's guess but the amplifier specs don't look too dissimilar in this use case, so I don't think we should be too quick to dismiss limited amplifier channel use from an AVR as OP proposed. Which sounds better between an AVR versus XMC-1 or better Emotiva pre-pro is of course subjective but something not insignificant to consider is the listening environment and how sophisticated room correction needs to be. Dirac seems to be highly regarded and used by an increasing number of leading and respected brands, including those producing processors way above the RMC-1 price point, let alone XMC-1 or XMC-2 G3 price points, and so should be factored into comparisons with AVRs that typically use Audyssey. Lastly as a counter consideration. Something I found interesting was a comparison on AVSForum between different Marantz AVRs and pre-pros in which the listeners were surprised when they weren't able to distinguish differences across products with a fairly significant price difference (unfortunately I didn't save the link for reference). This could of course just be that Marantz is leveraging essentially the same components and design across the range of products. However, I do wonder with my somewhat ancient ears whether I would really hear any benefit in higher quality solutions than say a SR-6012/7012 since I, like the OP, use my home theater almost exclusively for video entertainment rather than critical music listening. Still I am in no hurry so can wait for the availability of the Emotiva pre-pros before deciding. Just my 2c. I've been waiting for the xmc-1 w/dtsx/Atmos for quite sometime; but I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. I was on accessories4less today and noticed the marantz sr6011 for $750 and I might pull the trigger to replace my umc200. I worry about losing the ability to set the peqs; but I'm betting the audussey is way better than emoQ and I might not need to set them. |
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Post by overtheair on Feb 2, 2018 18:47:24 GMT -5
I've been waiting for the xmc-1 w/dtsx/Atmos for quite sometime; but I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. I was on accessories4less today and noticed the marantz sr6011 for $750 and I might pull the trigger to replace my umc200. I worry about losing the ability to set the peqs; but I'm betting the audussey is way better than emoQ and I might not need to set them. Well I'm still in a holding pattern since I posted last October in this thread. My understanding is that the RMC-1 is apparently planned to launch in March (I assume it should start shipping soon after then if not immediately available). The upgrade to the current XMC-1 chassis to support 4K and Atmos/DTS-X, i.e. XMC-1 Gen 2; and the new XMC-1 Gen 3 that leverages the newer RMC-1 style chassis could in theory be available relatively soon after March but "soon" might still mean 3-6 months or more. The rolling out/ramping of RMC-1 will likely be a major undertaking, which might mean availability of the new XMC-1 options is necessarily delayed since Emotiva are a relatively small team after all. That said, both XMC-1 variants will use the same HDMI board as RMC-1 and both will leverage the RMC-1 decoding platform based on an August 2017 podcast that stated the XMC-1 would have the "same basic board set" with "essentially the same" decoder as RMC-1. So it doesn't seem like there would be major additional engineering required to get these XMC-1 versions out. Availability may be gated more by how straightforward the launch and ramp of the RMC-1 is and how Emotiva prioritize factory resources for XMC-1 customer upgrades versus new XMC-1 production. I have no background on Marantz/Audyssey to comment one way or the other on your choice but the A4L price point is significantly lower than either XMC-1 Gen 2/XMC-1 Gen 3 which may be around $3k/$3k5 based on old information. The SR6011 is available now versus the uncertain availability time-frame for the XMC-1's so perhaps the bird in the hand is best? One other option if you want to explore Dirac is the NAD T758 v3? I believe I saw a factory refurb for <$1k from one of their online dealers but do your due diligence on this model by checking AVS Forum. |
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Post by davidl81 on Feb 2, 2018 21:16:58 GMT -5
I am excited about the new HDMI boards being out. I think I will hold off till the Gen 3 XMC comes out since I’m guessing it will be within the next 6 months or so.
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Post by flamingeye on Feb 3, 2018 19:38:05 GMT -5
I am excited about the new HDMI boards being out. I think I will hold off till the Gen 3 XMC comes out since I’m guessing it will be within the next 6 months or so. sorry but never assume it will make a fool out of me and you |
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