xmc-1 and minidsp and bass management

[deepstage]

I've recently got a new subwoofer amp and have a lot of options now for the future.

I'm using a single sub now, however the new amp has no provisions for phase control, filtering etc. It's a little daunting to try and gather all the info needed in a short time so I'll ask here.

What would be my best course of action to get the best bass management from my system. I have an XMC-1, pro audio amp with balance and unbalance input (the later in the form of a 1/4" plug, no RCA) and another sub amp with unbalanced input.

My future plans are building at least two more subwoofer (peerless XXLS 835017) for use up front while keeping my Dayton ultimax 15" behind my seating position and redesigning it to handle extreme low output.

I'm a little confused what exactly Dirac Full will enable me to do if I purchase it. Would a minidsp for bass management be much more effective? Do they have complete phase, crossover control?

I was hoping to get what I need out of the parametric eq of the XMC-1 but I really need phase control and have now realized that I can't simply use the parametric eq to cut out a very low band of frequency, in essence, a subsonic filter.

Another issue is, which minidsp to get. Balanced and I'd have to strip balanced wires and connect to the phoenix connectors of the mini, which seems really clunky and messy. Would the standard 2x4 just using unbalanced connections be completely adequate?

[fattykidd]

Sept 27, 2017 19:30:10 GMT -5 deepstage said:

I've recently got a new subwoofer amp and have a lot of options now for the future.

I'm using a single sub now, however the new amp has no provisions for phase control, filtering etc. It's a little daunting to try and gather all the info needed in a short time so I'll ask here.

What would be my best course of action to get the best bass management from my system. I have an XMC-1, pro audio amp with balance and unbalance input (the later in the form of a 1/4" plug, no RCA) and another sub amp with unbalanced input.

My future plans are building at least two more subwoofer (peerless XXLS 835017) for use up front while keeping my Dayton ultimax 15" behind my seating position and redesigning it to handle extreme low output.

I'm a little confused what exactly Dirac Full will enable me to do if I purchase it. Would a minidsp for bass management be much more effective? Do they have complete phase, crossover control?

I was hoping to get what I need out of the parametric eq of the XMC-1 but I really need phase control and have now realized that I can't simply use the parametric eq to cut out a very low band of frequency, in essence, a subsonic filter.

Another issue is, which minidsp to get. Balanced and I'd have to strip balanced wires and connect to the phoenix connectors of the mini, which seems really clunky and messy. Would the standard 2x4 just using unbalanced connections be completely adequate?

With dirac full you can set a hpf (subsonic or rumble filter) you need to edit a target curve in notepad to do it. Unbalanced 2x4 is much more plug n play, balanced is good because it retains the higher ouput voltage of the xlr outputs.

With the minidsp you can still time align and match up multiple subsystems to allow dirac to eq as a single unit.. Instead of crossing your fingers and hoping it gets them integrated correctly.

An opendrc may be an option as well, it has actual xlr plugins but is only a 2in 2out configuration.... And is twice the price.

[foggy1956]

Sept 27, 2017 19:47:42 GMT -5 fattykidd said:

Sept 27, 2017 19:30:10 GMT -5 deepstage said:

I've recently got a new subwoofer amp and have a lot of options now for the future.

I'm using a single sub now, however the new amp has no provisions for phase control, filtering etc. It's a little daunting to try and gather all the info needed in a short time so I'll ask here.

What would be my best course of action to get the best bass management from my system. I have an XMC-1, pro audio amp with balance and unbalance input (the later in the form of a 1/4" plug, no RCA) and another sub amp with unbalanced input.

My future plans are building at least two more subwoofer (peerless XXLS 835017) for use up front while keeping my Dayton ultimax 15" behind my seating position and redesigning it to handle extreme low output.

I'm a little confused what exactly Dirac Full will enable me to do if I purchase it. Would a minidsp for bass management be much more effective? Do they have complete phase, crossover control?

I was hoping to get what I need out of the parametric eq of the XMC-1 but I really need phase control and have now realized that I can't simply use the parametric eq to cut out a very low band of frequency, in essence, a subsonic filter.

Another issue is, which minidsp to get. Balanced and I'd have to strip balanced wires and connect to the phoenix connectors of the mini, which seems really clunky and messy. Would the standard 2x4 just using unbalanced connections be completely adequate?

With dirac full you can set a hpf (subsonic or rumble filter) you need to edit a target curve in notepad to do it. Unbalanced 2x4 is much more plug n play, balanced is good because it retains the higher ouput voltage of the xlr outputs.

With the minidsp you can still time align and match up multiple subsystems to allow dirac to eq as a single unit.. Instead of crossing your fingers and hoping it gets them integrated correctly.

An opendrc may be an option as well, it has actual xlr plugins but is only a 2in 2out configuration.... And is twice the price.

Filters can be set in the mini dsp as well.

[leonski]

MiniDSP has time delay which is the SAME as phase control for your purpose.

A 2x4 would give 2 inputs, stereo, if you think that matters (music is mostly mixed to Mono below maybe 80hz or 100hz, anyway) and up to 4 outs per channel. maximum

www.minidsp.com/images/documents/miniDSP%202x4%20Balanced%20and%20Kit%20-%20User%20Manual.pdf

Read thru this from the MINI folks, especially near the end where they give some setup examples. Look for the 'plugin' and determine if it meets your needs for phase / timedelay.

If you want full-room correction? Probably DIRAC. For bass management only? the Mini works wonders.

Check out my 'noodle' thread for a block diagram of a MiniDSP / NCore based biamp setup.

Check out the 2x4 Advanced DataSheet.      Phase control AND time delay available.      Perfect for subs.   

[geebo]

Also check out the 2x4 HD. It has higher input and output voltage capability and you can set up to 4 presets that you can select with a universal remote.

[enricoclaudio]

I have a miniDSP 2x4 HD where I consolidate my two subwoofers then I show them as one subwoofer to the XMC-1. I think that's the best approach. I do like the miniDSP 2x4 HD better than the regular 2x4 or even the balanced because it has 4 presets, it can be upgraded to Dirac for $245, delay goes up to 80ms (2x4 and balanced only up to 7.5ms) and 10 PEQ band/filters vs 6 on the 2x4 or balanced.

[fattykidd]

Sept 28, 2017 9:12:06 GMT -5 enricoclaudio said:

I have a miniDSP 2x4 HD where I consolidate my two subwoofers then I show them as one subwoofer to the XMC-1. I think that's the best approach. I do like the miniDSP 2x4 HD better than the regular 2x4 or even the balanced because it has 4 presets, it can be upgraded to Dirac for $245, delay goes up to 80ms (2x4 and balanced only up to 7.5ms) and 10 PEQ band/filters vs 6 on the 2x4 or balanced.

Sept 28, 2017 7:02:25 GMT -5 geebo said:

Also check out the 2x4 HD. It has higher input and output voltage capability and you can set up to 4 presets that you can select with a universal remote.

Didn’t know this. Thank you for the info.

[deepstage]

Grrr my response didn't take,,,,,,,,,,,,here goes again.

So do you think my best course of action would be to upgrade to Dirac Full and couple that with a minidsp HD for subwoofer duty?

My plan as of now is to build two sealed subs using the Peerless drive mentioned previously. I was thinking of putting these up front behind/under the screen, though I'd have to do some preliminary testing to see if they'll fit back there and whether or not their output will cause the screen to move. May be able to sneak them low enough to avoid this. If I do this, I guess I'll have the option to run them stereo or summed together and ran off one amp channel. I have plenty of amp power but as of now 3 channels.

I will also keep my UM15-22 behind my seating postion but plan on building a large ported enclosure and tune it for maximum performance in the very low region (mostly for movies as the peerless drivers should do great for the type of music i mostly listen to).

I could do as suggested and tune the subs with the dsp and then let Dirac see them all as 1.

I haven't done too much reading about Dirac full and the minidsp HD, so does what I have planned sound reasonable?
If I do go with the minidsp HD version, I'll have to convert the output from RCA to XLR or 1/4" phono to feed the CV-5000. Not really a big deal though as far as I'm concerned.

Thoughts?

[fattykidd]

Yes that sounds like a good plan.

I wouldn’t be concerned with your screen moving, I’ve had 4 ported 18’s stacked behind my screen with no issue of the screen moving. I currently have 2 35cuft front loaded horns and my mains each have a ported 15 built in. My projector bounces on the shelf before my screen moves.
If you had subs with undersized ports causing too high port velocity you may have issues. But not that I foresee with your planned setup.

[deepstage]

well it's a motorized screen and moves quite easily with a slight breeze. I don't think it will be an issue if the subs are sealed and the drivers sneak under the screen however.

[leonski]

Sept 27, 2017 19:30:10 GMT -5 deepstage said:

I've recently got a new subwoofer amp and have a lot of options now for the future.

I'm using a single sub now, however the new amp has no provisions for phase control, filtering etc. It's a little daunting to try and gather all the info needed in a short time so I'll ask here.

What would be my best course of action to get the best bass management from my system. I have an XMC-1, pro audio amp with balance and unbalance input (the later in the form of a 1/4" plug, no RCA) and another sub amp with unbalanced input.

My future plans are building at least two more subwoofer (peerless XXLS 835017) for use up front while keeping my Dayton ultimax 15" behind my seating position and redesigning it to handle extreme low output.

I'm a little confused what exactly Dirac Full will enable me to do if I purchase it. Would a minidsp for bass management be much more effective? Do they have complete phase, crossover control?

I was hoping to get what I need out of the parametric eq of the XMC-1 but I really need phase control and have now realized that I can't simply use the parametric eq to cut out a very low band of frequency, in essence, a subsonic filter.

Another issue is, which minidsp to get. Balanced and I'd have to strip balanced wires and connect to the phoenix connectors of the mini, which seems really clunky and messy. Would the standard 2x4 just using unbalanced connections be completely adequate?

Bass is the Most difficult to equalize. Treat 3 subs as 1? Will that work? How good are ANY of the room EQ utilities at the bottom octave or so?

As for connectors / XLR? Get a print of the connector. All the Neutrik use the same size cutout. Go to a machine shop and have 'em cut you an L-Bracket with as many
connector holes as you need. Mount the XLR connectors in the bracket. Solder on the appropriate wires. Connect to the Phoenix connector than plug it in. Mount the bracket and the Mini to a base. Find some Ceramic standoffs for insulation and vibration.

[fattykidd]

Sept 28, 2017 21:10:49 GMT -5 leonski said:

Sept 27, 2017 19:30:10 GMT -5 deepstage said:

I've recently got a new subwoofer amp and have a lot of options now for the future.

I'm using a single sub now, however the new amp has no provisions for phase control, filtering etc. It's a little daunting to try and gather all the info needed in a short time so I'll ask here.

What would be my best course of action to get the best bass management from my system. I have an XMC-1, pro audio amp with balance and unbalance input (the later in the form of a 1/4" plug, no RCA) and another sub amp with unbalanced input.

My future plans are building at least two more subwoofer (peerless XXLS 835017) for use up front while keeping my Dayton ultimax 15" behind my seating position and redesigning it to handle extreme low output.

I'm a little confused what exactly Dirac Full will enable me to do if I purchase it. Would a minidsp for bass management be much more effective? Do they have complete phase, crossover control?

I was hoping to get what I need out of the parametric eq of the XMC-1 but I really need phase control and have now realized that I can't simply use the parametric eq to cut out a very low band of frequency, in essence, a subsonic filter.

Another issue is, which minidsp to get. Balanced and I'd have to strip balanced wires and connect to the phoenix connectors of the mini, which seems really clunky and messy. Would the standard 2x4 just using unbalanced connections be completely adequate?

Bass is the Most difficult to equalize. Treat 3 subs as 1? Will that work? How good are ANY of the room EQ utilities at the bottom octave or so?

As for connectors / XLR? Get a print of the connector. All the Neutrik use the same size cutout. Go to a machine shop and have 'em cut you an L-Bracket with as many
connector holes as you need. Mount the XLR connectors in the bracket. Solder on the appropriate wires. Connect to the Phoenix connector than plug it in. Mount the bracket and the Mini to a base. Find some Ceramic standoffs for insulation and vibration.

Yes treat 3 as 1. Time align the 3 with the minidsp to achieve smoothest response possible with NO eq. Then the room correction software has a far easier time smoothing the response, less eq and filters needed.
Dirac is able to get my 4 subs to within +-1.5dB of my target curve.

[dust770]

I’m also considering this for two subs and I got out my XMC-1 mic and hooked it up to my laptop and ran a sweep on my upstairs sub. I noticed on the REW page the XMC-1 can be selected as the Equalizer, how would the results be exported to the XMC-1?

[dust770]

I also gave up on Rew many times because I could never plug into my xmc-1 and get it to play tones through the XMC, allowing me to run tones through the front mains and sub at the same time. Only if I directly plug into a sub will it work, what am I missing here?

[foggy1956]

Sept 29, 2017 2:49:32 GMT -5 dust770 said:

I also gave up on Rew many times because I could never plug into my xmc-1 and get it to play tones through the XMC, allowing me to run tones through the front mains and sub at the same time. Only if I directly plug into a sub will it work, what am I missing here?

Are you using hdmi into the xmc on a windows based pc?

[foggy1956]

Sept 29, 2017 0:56:44 GMT -5 dust770 said:

I’m also considering this for two subs and I got out my XMC-1 mic and hooked it up to my laptop and ran a sweep on my upstairs sub. I noticed on the REW page the XMC-1 can be selected as the Equalizer, how would the results be exported to the XMC-1?

You need to save the data as a text file and then load it into the xmc via usb.  Keith has the procedure somewhere, maybe he'll chime in.

[geebo]

Sept 29, 2017 6:26:27 GMT -5 foggy1956 said:

Sept 29, 2017 0:56:44 GMT -5 dust770 said:

I’m also considering this for two subs and I got out my XMC-1 mic and hooked it up to my laptop and ran a sweep on my upstairs sub. I noticed on the REW page the XMC-1 can be selected as the Equalizer, how would the results be exported to the XMC-1?

You need to save the data as a text file and then load it into the xmc via usb.  Keith has the procedure somewhere, maybe he'll chime in.

It begins on page 97 of the manual here: XMC-1 Manual

[KeithL]

When you run Dirac Live on the XMC-1, it essentially "takes over" the XMC-1 and runs it.
Part of that is that it ignores things like how the bass management is set on the XMC-1, and what mode the XMC-1 is in (it doesn't even matter whether each speaker is set to large or small).
The same is true when you play the internal test tones on the XMC-1.... they "do their own thing" and ignore most of your settings and choices.

In contrast, when you use REW, as far as the XMC-1 is concerned, it's just playing audio from your computer, and REW might as well be playing music.
Among other things, this means that ALL of the settings you make on the XMC-1 matter... including everything from trims to bass management and tone settings
It also means that things like whether REW can play test tones individually on all or just some channels, or can play them simultaneously on multiple channels, may depend on stuff like your sound card, and its drivers.

To address the original question......
If you tell REW to play a test tone through the Front Left channel.
Then set the Front Left speaker to SMALL on your XMC-1.
And choose a mode on the XMC-1 that includes bass management.
Then it should split the test signal between the main speaker and the sub just like it does with music (by applying your bass management settings).
(Remember that ALL settings apply; if you have your XMC-1 set to Dual Mono Subs, and you send bass to your Front Left channel, that signal will be sent to each sub at reduced level so they SUM correctly.)
Just remember that, as far as REW is concerned, it thinks it's playing through a single speaker or channel...
And, as far as the XMC-1 is concerned, it just thinks it's playing music from the computer...

I haven't used REW is quite some time, so it may have been updated, but I seem to recall that REW looks at each channel separately......
So, for each channel, you had to run REW, connect its output to the channel you wanted to test, run the test, and save the results to a file.
You had to do this separately for each channel, save the results of each channel you tested to a separate file, and then import the full set of files into the XMC-1.
(I seem to remember that, while you had to run the test separately for each channel, you were able to tell REW "which channel it was testing", and it would save each file with the correct channel name already in it.)

Depending on the limitations, you may find it simplest to run all the tests through one output channel (maybe the Front Right), then simply connect each amplifier channel and speaker to that channel in turn and test it.
This may be far simpler than figuring out how to "convince" REW to test specific channels.

I would also remind anyone getting deeply involved in this sort of thing that you are testing the response of your speakers, your room, and how they interact.
(Assuming you don't use options like bass management or distance correction, your "room correction software" isn't measuring or correcting for differences between individual channels on the XMC-1 or your amp.
Both of those should be so close to arbitrarily perfect, and so close to identical between channels, that you can interchangeably test any speaker on any channel with no problems.
Therefore, if it's easiest to get REW to output test tones on just one channel, you should feel free to connect that channel to each speaker in turn, one at a time, to test each.)

Another thing I would remind you of is that testing multiple speakers together can lead to interesting and misleading conclusions.
For example, if you were to test your Front Main speaker and your sub TOGETHER, you might find a deep notch at a certain frequency.
Now, if that notch was " a simple anomaly in the frequency response of one or both speakers", you might be able to correct it by applying a boost at the appropriate frequency.
HOWEVER, if that notch is caused by a cancellation between your sub and the woofer in your speaker at that frequency and location, you will NOT be able to correct it by applying a boost.
In fact, if you allow your room correction software to TRY to correct it with a boost, the result will be a huge boost at that frequency.... which still won't fix the problem.
Unfortunately, that boost will produce very audible coloration; it won't correct the original cancellation notch; and you might even risk overdriving that channel over a narrow range of frequencies.
(Also unfortunately, most room correction software may not figure that out....... )

Sept 29, 2017 2:49:32 GMT -5 dust770 said:

I also gave up on Rew many times because I could never plug into my xmc-1 and get it to play tones through the XMC, allowing me to run tones through the front mains and sub at the same time. Only if I directly plug into a sub will it work, what am I missing here?

[dust770]

Sept 29, 2017 6:26:27 GMT -5 foggy1956 said:

Sept 29, 2017 0:56:44 GMT -5 dust770 said:

I’m also considering this for two subs and I got out my XMC-1 mic and hooked it up to my laptop and ran a sweep on my upstairs sub. I noticed on the REW page the XMC-1 can be selected as the Equalizer, how would the results be exported to the XMC-1?

You need to save the data as a text file and then load it into the xmc via usb.  Keith has the procedure somewhere, maybe he'll chime in.

I’m using a Mac through a u control UCLA222 it works for subs if I plug directly into the sub but I can never figure out why I can’t plug into the XMC and get it to play tones through the system .

[dust770]