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Post by hlevinson on Oct 12, 2017 7:15:04 GMT -5
I am looking to do some upgrades and sell my two Emotiva XPA-1 amps for a Parasound Halo A21 amp.
I figure while doing that I may upgrade my preamp/processor at the same time (Currently an Onkyo TX-NR1007 AVR that I am using a a preamp/processor) which performs very well. It does not have XLR (Balanced) outputs, only RCA (Unbalanced) outputs.
I am looking at the Yamaha CX-A5000 ($1,200) or the Marantz AV7702 ($900) plus XLR cable cost. The Yamaha is the lead choice at the moment but that is not my question or care to debate which is better in this thread.
The run from preamp to amp is only 3 feet, so that negates the big advantage of balanced outputs (Being able to run longer distances).
There is also no noise issue using the Onkyo unbalanced outputs, the noise floor is only evident at EXTREMELY LOUD levels which I would not use for extended listening. That negates the 2nd big benefit of balanced cables, reducing introduction of noise.
My gut feeling is to just upgrade the amp as I feel like I will get minimal (If any) improvement by getting a new preamp / cables. Any thoughts or actual experience in this area from anyone.
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 12, 2017 7:44:28 GMT -5
I would say if you are happy with what you have and need re-enforcement from others to change something, then don't change anything; Do something else with your money. To me, I would not think that changing the XPA-1s for a Parasound A21 is necessarily an improvement. Also, I would rather have a component exclusively designed for the task at hand (preamp vs AVR used as a preamp). To me I will always opt for balanced design and XLR connectors over RCA unbalanced designs because this is an engineering design improvement (i.e. you may feel safe in an all wood multi story building, but I would opt for steel even if the feeling of adequacy cannot be sensed). Lastly, you say your fronts are biamped, but you are using only two monoblocks to power them; do you mean bi-wired?
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Post by hlevinson on Oct 12, 2017 8:07:42 GMT -5
I would say if you are happy with what you have and need re-enforcement from others to change something, then don't change anything; Do something else with your money. To me, I would not think that changing the XPA-1s for a Parasound A21 is necessarily an improvement. Also, I would rather have a component exclusively designed for the task at hand (preamp vs AVR used as a preamp). To me I will always opt for balanced design and XLR connectors over RCA unbalanced designs because this is an engineering design improvement (i.e. you may feel safe in an all wood multi story building, but I would opt for steel even if the feeling of adequacy cannot be sensed). Lastly, you say your fronts are biamped, but you are using only two monoblocks to power them; do you mean bi-wired? I have had recurring issues with my XPA-3 (Back to Emotiva for a 2nd repair attempt at the moment) so I am looking for some other amps. The Parasound gets rave professional reviews everywhere and is considered to be an exceptional value (Along with a great pedigree - John Curl design). But that was not the question I posed here. The fronts are biamped. XPA-1 handles the KEFs up front for the LF and the Onkyo handles the HF/MF (As they require a lot loss "Power"). I had initially just used the XPA-1 (Non-biamped) for the KEFs so I have done it both ways and not sure there is any real significant difference. So my question was more along the lines of was spending an extra $1,000-1,500) on a separate preamp / XLR cables was going to be a worthwhile investment, but my gut feeling was no based on my specific use conditions (Short runs and no current noise floor issues). Of course in theory your points were all valid, one component to do a specific job is better and balanced output use in general would be preferred. But I did want to throw it out there just to make sure I was not missing something. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 12, 2017 9:24:49 GMT -5
How do you balance the output of 2 different amps in biamping? I don't see that you have any equipment to do the biamping equalizing. Are you using sub outputs to service the Kef low frequencies? IF so, I'm not sure that is desirable depending on the frequency response of the low freqency section of the Kefs.
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Post by hlevinson on Oct 12, 2017 9:50:54 GMT -5
How do you balance the output of 2 different amps in biamping? I don't see that you have any equipment to do the biamping equalizing. Are you using sub outputs to service the Kef low frequencies? IF so, I'm not sure that is desirable depending on the frequency response of the low freqency section of the Kefs. The AVR has a built in Audyssey microphone based system for speaker / room correction. It runs through a set up process that adjusts to compensate for an irregularities for each individual channel. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 12, 2017 10:14:56 GMT -5
It’s hard to believe using the Onkyo for mids and highs sounds better than running the XPA-1’s full range. Also seems you’re trading a fully balanced amp (quad-differential) for one with only balanced inputs. I’d also have the same concern as mgbpuff about how you’re bi-amping, Audyssey’s not really designed to compensate for high/low amp sensitivities. Personally I’d go back to running the KEF’s full range, then replace the Onkyo with something like an XMC-1 where you can then have a fully balanced L/R connection, but if you’re not happy with Emotiva then your plan may work.
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Post by pknaz on Oct 12, 2017 10:23:23 GMT -5
It’s hard to believe using the Onkyo for mids and highs sounds better than running the XPA-1’s full range. Also seems you’re trading a fully balanced amp (quad-differential) for one with only balanced inputs. I’d also have the same concern as mgbpuff about how you’re bi-amping, Audyssey’s not really designed to compensate for high/low amp sensitivities. Personally I’d go back to running the KEF’s full range, then replace the Onkyo with something like an XMC-1 where you can then have a fully balanced L/R connection, but if you’re not happy with Emotiva then your plan may work. And turn off Audyssey, that's horrible stuff  |
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Post by pknaz on Oct 12, 2017 10:26:03 GMT -5
On a different note, since your speakers and room have the greatest impact on how your system sounds (we're talking 1,000's of times greater impact) than your equipment does, wouldn't it make more sense to test alternative speakers or arrangements (room location)?
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 12, 2017 10:31:45 GMT -5
How do you balance the output of 2 different amps in biamping? I don't see that you have any equipment to do the biamping equalizing. Are you using sub outputs to service the Kef low frequencies? IF so, I'm not sure that is desirable depending on the frequency response of the low freqency section of the Kefs. The AVR has a built in Audyssey microphone based system for speaker / room correction. It runs through a set up process that adjusts to compensate for an irregularities for each individual channel. I'm not sure but I never thought of using room correction software to accomplish total speaker equalization (a little trim up - perhaps, but as a substitute for an entire speaker equalization circuit - no). The problem I see is that the channel that serves both the HF/MF amp AND the LF amp cannot individually adjust one vs the other which may result in unnecessary strain on one amp in a frequency it is not intended to serve. I think you are asking Audyssey more than it was designed to do. |
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Post by hlevinson on Oct 12, 2017 11:12:43 GMT -5
We have gotten a little off topic. The bi-amped set up works well as does the XPA-1 only set up. There is not a significant difference between them.
My question still goes back to spending $1,000-1,500 for a separate pre/pro to allow the use of balanced outputs for a short run where the is currently no noise issue. My gut says no, but looking to see if anyone has a different experience.
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Post by mshump on Oct 12, 2017 11:30:14 GMT -5
IMO, changing from an AVR to a pre/pro will give you a bit better sound (I went down a similar path, Onkyo AVR to Sherboern 7020, then XMC-1)
Using balanced cables vice RCA's some hear a difference and some don't. I felt the XLR's gave me a little more clarity in my system.
I have the A21 in my 2 channel system. It is a great amp, but i doubt it would sound better than 2 XPA-1's
Mark
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 12, 2017 11:35:10 GMT -5
We have gotten a little off topic. The bi-amped set up works well as does the XPA-1 only set up. There is not a significant difference between them. My question still goes back to spending $1,000-1,500 for a separate pre/pro to allow the use of balanced outputs for a short run where the is currently no noise issue. My gut says no, but looking to see if anyone has a different experience. To that question I would say no, balanced outputs would be a feature to look for if you needed a new processor for other reasons. |
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Post by macromicroman on Oct 12, 2017 11:36:42 GMT -5
Just using XLR cables probably will not make much if any difference, but having a truly balanced path all the way through the preamp and amps such as with the XMC-1 and XPA-1s probably will sound better. Of course you will have to decide if the price increase is worth it.
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Post by hlevinson on Oct 12, 2017 11:39:21 GMT -5
IMO, changing from an AVR to a pre/pro will give you a bit better sound (I went down a similar path, Onkyo AVR to Sherboern 7020, then XMC-1) Using balanced cables vice RCA's some hear a difference and some don't. I felt the XLR's gave me a little more clarity in my system. I have the A21 in my 2 channel system. It is a great amp, but i doubt it would sound better than 2 XPA-1's Mark Thanks for a meaningful comparison as you own a Parasound and an Emotiva XPA-3. Is your Parasound an A21 or A23? Your post says you have an A21, but your sig says you have an A23. |
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Post by mshump on Oct 12, 2017 12:05:09 GMT -5
IMO, changing from an AVR to a pre/pro will give you a bit better sound (I went down a similar path, Onkyo AVR to Sherboern 7020, then XMC-1) Using balanced cables vice RCA's some hear a difference and some don't. I felt the XLR's gave me a little more clarity in my system. I have the A21 in my 2 channel system. It is a great amp, but i doubt it would sound better than 2 XPA-1's Mark Thanks for a meaningful comparison as you own a Parasound and an Emotiva XPA-3. Is your Parasound an A21 or A23? Your post says you have an A21, but your sig says you have an A23. OH crap sorry about that ! I do own the A23. Mark |
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Post by hlevinson on Oct 12, 2017 12:15:24 GMT -5
Thanks for a meaningful comparison as you own a Parasound and an Emotiva XPA-3. Is your Parasound an A21 or A23? Your post says you have an A21, but your sig says you have an A23. OH crap sorry about that ! I do own the A23. Mark Thanks for the clarification. I am looking at the A21 which is a step up from the A23, but have read good things across the board about The Parasound amps. |
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Post by mshump on Oct 12, 2017 12:31:51 GMT -5
OH crap sorry about that ! I do own the A23. Mark Thanks for the clarification. I am looking at the A21 which is a step up from the A23, but have read good things across the board about The Parasound amps. I was using an parasound HCA 1000, but I think the caps were starting to go. I was going to put in a Emotiva XPA-2 gen 2, but the parasound was quite a bit less. I think going from an AVR to a pre/pro will give you more bang for the buck in SQ IMO. Mark |
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 12, 2017 12:31:58 GMT -5
Parasound is more expensive than Emotiva. Spend more and more money and get only marginally better performance! Whatever! Lonny may not have the name recognition of John Curl today, but tomorrow - who knows! Maybe you need to find a Parasound blog; you might even talk about Emotiva there and see what response you get.
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Post by hlevinson on Oct 12, 2017 12:42:57 GMT -5
Parasound is more expensive than Emotiva. Spend more and more money and get only marginally better performance! Whatever! Lonny may not have the name recognition of John Curl today, but tomorrow - who knows! Maybe you need to find a Parasound blog; you might even talk about Emotiva there and see what response you get. I like my Emotiva products. I bought my XPA-3 about 5 years ago and loved it so much that I bought 2 XPA-1 monoblocks. My issue is the XPA-3 has been out of service for several months now (Under warranty repair). I also notice a "Difference" in the XPA-1s. One runs cool and the other much hotter. Likely an indication of a higher transition from class A to AB, but they are definitely different. Without a doubt, bang for the buck Emotiva is right at the top of the list. But the quality issues concern me for the long term. Parasound gets similar bang for the buck reviews, but at a higher price point than Emotiva. |
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Post by pknaz on Oct 12, 2017 12:45:28 GMT -5
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