XMC-1 AND HDCP 2.2

[laserman35]

If i use a splitter from my HDMI output on the XMC-1, can I bypass HDCP 2.2 and get 4K for all of my HDCP 2.2 4k devices that are connected to the HDMI inputs on the XMC-1?

[moovtune]

If you meant "pass through" instead of "bypass", it should work if the splitter is 4K rated. I assume you're trying to connect two 4K monitors or projectors. If they are not both 4K and HDCP 2.2, then neither of them would work through a splitter (from my experience).

[doc1963]

By its literal definition, no, you cannot "legally" bypass HDCP. There are "black box" converters out there that can "downgrade" HDCP 2.2 to 1.4, but the resulting output will be 1080p, not 4K. I believe there's an old thread over on AVS Forum if you search for it.

[KeithL]

You are partly correct - but your information is slightly out of date.

The question of whether you may legally "convert HDCP 2.2 to HDCP 1.4" has been a grey area for a long time.
However, as of a court settlement last year, it is now "legitimate" and "legal" to convert HDCP 2.2 to HDCP 1.4 to enable passing of HDCP 2.2 protected 4k content to HDCP 1.4 only 4k devices.
HDFury makes several rather expensive devices that can do this - but this one from Monoproce is a lot cheaper.....
www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15242
(I believe it is limited to Chroma 4.2.0 - which is the standard used for 4k UHD Blu-Ray discs.)

If you add such a device to the input of a device WHICH ONLY SUPPORTS HDCP 1.4 BUT IS OTHERWISE CAPABLE OF HANDLING 4K VIDEO, it will then accept a 4k UHD (HDCP 2.2) video input.
(This will work with the XMC-1 because, even with its original video hardware, the XMC-1 ALWAYS supported 4k AND HDCP 1.4 - just not HDCP 2.2 )
If you add one of these boxes to one of its inputs, it will be able to accept 4k UHD video on that input.

Oct 16, 2017 15:03:52 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

By its literal definition, no, you cannot "legally" bypass HDCP. There are "black box" converters out there that can "downgrade" HDCP 2.2 to 1.4, but the resulting output will be 1080p, not 4K. I believe there's an old thread over on AVS Forum if you search for it.

[KeithL]

The HDCP conversion is not something that can be applied anywhere in the signal path - and most splitters don't do it anyway.
Also, HDCP copy protection "propagates from the source forward".
In other words, if you want to connect an HDCP 2.2 source to an INPUT on the XMC-1, then you must apply the conversion to the signal before it reaches the input (otherwise, the XMC-1 will not be able to accept the signal.)
After the conversion, the XMC-1 is simply receiving a 4k video signal with HDCP 1.4 copy protection - which it can handle just fine.
If you want to convert several different inputs, they you're going to need another little black box for each.
(Or you could use an HDCP 2.2 compliant switch and switch several sources through just one input - performing the conversion at then input - but then the XMC-1 won't be able to switch the inputs for you.)

Oct 16, 2017 11:20:11 GMT -5 laserman35 said:

If i use a splitter from my HDMI output on the XMC-1, can I bypass HDCP 2.2 and get 4K for all of my HDCP 2.2 4k devices that are connected to the HDMI inputs on the XMC-1?

[geebo]

Oct 16, 2017 16:36:16 GMT -5 KeithL said:

The HDCP conversion is not something that can be applied anywhere in the signal path - and most splitters don't do it anyway.
Also, HDCP copy protection "propagates from the source forward".
In other words, if you want to connect an HDCP 2.2 source to an INPUT on the XMC-1, then you must apply the conversion to the signal before it reaches the input (otherwise, the XMC-1 will not be able to accept the signal.)
After the conversion, the XMC-1 is simply receiving a 4k video signal with HDCP 1.4 copy protection - which it can handle just fine.
If you want to convert several different inputs, they you're going to need another little black box for each.
(Or you could use an HDCP 2.2 compliant switch and switch several sources through just one input - performing the conversion at then input - but then the XMC-1 won't be able to switch the inputs for you.)

Oct 16, 2017 11:20:11 GMT -5 laserman35 said:

If i use a splitter from my HDMI output on the XMC-1, can I bypass HDCP 2.2 and get 4K for all of my HDCP 2.2 4k devices that are connected to the HDMI inputs on the XMC-1?

Would it also allow the XMC to pass HDR?

[bluescale]

Oct 16, 2017 16:40:33 GMT -5 geebo said:

Oct 16, 2017 16:36:16 GMT -5 KeithL said:

The HDCP conversion is not something that can be applied anywhere in the signal path - and most splitters don't do it anyway.
Also, HDCP copy protection "propagates from the source forward".
In other words, if you want to connect an HDCP 2.2 source to an INPUT on the XMC-1, then you must apply the conversion to the signal before it reaches the input (otherwise, the XMC-1 will not be able to accept the signal.)
After the conversion, the XMC-1 is simply receiving a 4k video signal with HDCP 1.4 copy protection - which it can handle just fine.
If you want to convert several different inputs, they you're going to need another little black box for each.
(Or you could use an HDCP 2.2 compliant switch and switch several sources through just one input - performing the conversion at then input - but then the XMC-1 won't be able to switch the inputs for you.)

Would it also allow the XMC to pass HDR?

I don't believe the XMC-1's HDMI board has enough bandwidth to pass HDR and 4k.

[cawgijoe]

I'm probably going to receive the Apple TV 4K as a Christmas gift.

Currently I have an Oppo 203 that I pass the video directly to my Samsung 4K Tv and the audio through the XMC-1. I need to switch the TV to a secondary input to view the picture. Ok for now.

I plan on buying the replacement XMC-1 board whenever it comes out.

So, if the board is not out before I hook up my Apple TV 4K, should I spend the money on either an HDFury HDMI doctor or suggested Blackbird converter?

I could connect the Apple to another separate HDMI input on the TV, but then I would have to live temporarily with the TV sound. No surround sound.

Thoughts? Do I just need patience?


It does not appear that the Dr. HDMI does 4K after looking at the specs.

[audiogeek]

I would just run an optical out from my tv to the XMC-1. That's what I do now to hear the smart tv apps. Any inputs you add to the tv will then be output to the XMC-1.

[cawgijoe]

Oct 27, 2017 10:50:29 GMT -5 audiogeek said:

I would just run an optical out from my tv to the XMC-1. That's what I do now to hear the smart tv apps. Any inputs you add to the tv will then be output to the XMC-1.

Did not even think of that! I've been using the TV apps and just using the TV sound which works but is not ideal.

Will do that when I get home. Thanks much!

[audiogeek]

Oct 27, 2017 10:54:48 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

Oct 27, 2017 10:50:29 GMT -5 audiogeek said:

I would just run an optical out from my tv to the XMC-1. That's what I do now to hear the smart tv apps. Any inputs you add to the tv will then be output to the XMC-1.

Did not even think of that! I've been using the TV apps and just using the TV sound which works but is not ideal.

Will do that when I get home. Thanks much!

My pleasure, glad to help!

[LCSeminole]

Oct 27, 2017 10:28:33 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

I'm probably going to receive the Apple TV 4K as a Christmas gift.

Currently I have an Oppo 203 that I pass the video directly to my Samsung 4K Tv and the audio through the XMC-1. I need to switch the TV to a secondary input to view the picture. Ok for now.

I plan on buying the replacement XMC-1 board whenever it comes out.

So, if the board is not out before I hook up my Apple TV 4K, should I spend the money on either an HDFury HDMI doctor or suggested Blackbird converter?

I could connect the Apple to another separate HDMI input on the TV, but then I would have to live temporarily with the TV sound. No surround sound.

Thoughts? Do I just need patience?


It does not appear that the Dr. HDMI does 4K after looking at the specs.

You could also use the Oppo UDP-203 HDMI input for the Apple TV 4K.

[Gary Cook]

Faced with the same dilemma (Apple TV4 and Oppo 203) what I have done is use the ARC from the TV to supply sound to the UMC-200. It's dolby digital so 5.1 which is OK, much better than the speakers in the TV.

HDMI 1 on the Samsung TV is both the input from the UMC-200 and the ARC channel output from the Samsung TV to the UMC-200 (needs a HDMI cable with ARC).

The cable TV box (non 4K) is still plugged into HDMI 1 on the UMC-200. HDMI output from the UMC-200 is then plugged into HDM1 on the Samsung TV, normal set up.
The Apple TV4K is plugged into the HDM 2 input on the Samsung TV, then the Samsung HDMI 1 output goes via ARC to the UMC-200.
The Oppo 203 has 2 HDMI outputs, one of them (video) is plugged into the HDM 3 input on the Samsung TV, the other (audio) goes to the UMC-200.
On the UMC-1 for ARC input there is a selection "TV" which is the ARC return channel.

There is bit of juggling of inputs on both the Samsung TV and the UMC-200 (low WAF) but it works until there is a solution to the 4K, Atmos, DTSX, Auro, HDMI 2 HDCP etc issues.

Cheers
Gary

[cawgijoe]

Thanks guys.
Since I don’t have the Apple TV 4K yet, I’ll try the optical cable to the XMC-1 so I can at least avoid the TV speakers while using the TV apps.
Can’t wait for the new HDMI board!

[cawgijoe]

Optical cable working fine. Works great. Ordered a Blackbird HDCP converter from Monoprice, under $20 on sale just in case the Emo board is not yet available when I receive my Apple TV 4K.

Any word on the new board's availability?

[mountainman3520]

Oct 27, 2017 10:50:29 GMT -5 audiogeek said:

I would just run an optical out from my tv to the XMC-1. That's what I do now to hear the smart tv apps. Any inputs you add to the tv will then be output to the XMC-1.

I was thinking of doing exactly this for a few years to bypass the repeatedly obsolete HDMI switching in my repeatedly obsolete prepro by having the TV receive the HDMI sources directly and perform the HDMI switching, then output the audio stream to the prepro via optical Toslink.

What are the downsides to this approach?

(1) Are there types of digital audio streams that the TVs are not capable of stripping out of HDMI and forwarding over optical?  Maybe this only works with older formats such as Dolby Digital 5.1 and fails with newer formats with higher bitrates or more channels?

(2) Loss of GUI OSD features from prepro so no more volume level, sound format, menus, etc.

(3) No video processing.  I see this as more of a positive than a negative at this point.  I can already choose to have either my UHD sources or my display upconvert content to 4K.  I don't see a reason to have a third way to do it in the middle of the video path by the prepro.  This just adds complexity, failure modes, cost, latency, encryption, compatibility, and potentially other technical issues.

Anything else?

HDMI has been a terrible unstable standard ever since the beginning.  Apparently nobody can see more than 1 year ahead for AV equipment features.  I'm tired of constantly replacing $2-4K prepros and receivers every 3-5 years because their HDMI interfaces become obsolete so maybe the right answer is to stop passing the video through the prepro.

Otherwise I at least need to wait until early 2019 for HDMI 2.1 to be stable before replacing my HDMI 1.4 prepro or I'll be SOL again in one year.

[Gary Cook]

My 20 cents;
1. Coax or toslink optical handles up to Dolby Digital, so no lossless codecs.
2. Correct no OSD
3. Correct, but a positive as I also see it.

and

4. Multiple switching required, change inputs on both the TV and the processor
5. Lip sync can be an issue
6. Additional cables, more of an issue if long runs required
7. One input may not be so much of an issue but what about when you have multiple 4K inputs?
8. Never forget the low WAF, "you mean I have to push 2 buttons now"


Cheers
Gary

[mountainman3520]

Thanks.  The new 82" Samsung UHD TV I recently purchased puts the HDMI inputs, switching, and other interfaces in a separate unit with a fairly long proprietary cable connecting to the TV.  I have mixed emotions about this design decision by Samsung but maybe they will offer upgrades that allow future HDMI versions to be retrofitted into this display.  By placing the Samsung interface box in my AV rack it serves pretty well as a video switch, albeit with a limit of 4 HDMI (4K) ports and no analog legacy ports.  I don't want the analog ports anymore so I'm glad to be rid of them.  4 HDMIs is marginal but gets the job done for me.  AppleTV 4K, PS4, Oppo UDP-205 UHD DVD, one spare.

I won't need to change the config of the AV prepro when inputs are changed on the TV as it will always be left on a single input with the Toslink optical digital input attached.  So this configuration has equally easy remote control use compared to routing video through a prepro.

The loss of OSD and limited digital audio modes are a bummer.  I've been having to manually adjust latency for lip sync on my current setup due to it using a prior HDMI version that did not support automatic sync timing.  That would be a nice feature if it works.

Do you think the Emotiva XMC-1 will continue to be upgraded including HDMI 2.1?

I've also had bad reliability problems with my last 3 receivers/prepros.  All of them have suffered hardware issues so I'm running out of brands to buy.

I'll probably update my prepro again once HDMI seems to have stabilized for a few years and there are a few clean, modern era, simplified designs.  They need to ditch all the legacy analog interfaces, ditch the video processing, and improve the usability and reliability of the core functions.  Until then I can live with the TV optical output work-around.

Nov 29, 2017 0:01:53 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

My 20 cents;
1. Coax or toslink optical handles up to Dolby Digital, so no lossless codecs.
2. Correct no OSD
3. Correct, but a positive as I also see it.

and

4. Multiple switching required, change inputs on both the TV and the processor
5. Lip sync can be an issue
6. Additional cables, more of an issue if long runs required
7. One input may not be so much of an issue but what about when you have multiple 4K inputs?
8. Never forget the low WAF, "you mean I have to push 2 buttons now"


Cheers
Gary

[Gary Cook]

My UMC-200 has given me no problems for over 6 years, it just works, painlessly, and sounds great at the same time. Of course I know it's limitations so I don't ask or expect it to do things outside its design parameters. But it's 4K time, I've been puting up with a gradually increasing number of 4K inputs over the last 6 months and I've run out of patience. Quite soon it will be Atmos/DTSX time and that introduces a whole new game of pain.

Cheers
Gary

[cwt]

Nov 30, 2017 2:51:56 GMT -5 mountainman3520 said:

Do you think the Emotiva XMC-1 will continue to be upgraded including HDMI 2.1?

Chances are you wont need a lot of the hdmi2.1 features . We already have high resolution; WCG and HDR with hdmi2.0a/b and some of the new features may be backwards compatible ; nothing is set in stone on the hdmi.org 2.1 page

Q: Will the existing ARC-enabled products work with new products that use eARC?
A: Maybe. Manufacturers can produce products that are compatible with both eARC and ARC. However, eARC is not defined to be backwards compatible with ARC.
Hmm; sounds like the whole chain needs to be upgraded to be sure..
Q: Is Dynamic HDR accessible via a firmware upgrade?
A: Manufacturers may or may not be able to enable Dynamic HDR with a firmware upgrade. Contact the manufacturer of your product to see if this is possible.

Dolby vision HDR passthrough has already been enabled in D/M holding hdmi2.0a avr's...

Q: Will existing HDMI High Speed Cables deliver the HDMI 2.1 features also?
A: Existing HDMI High Speed Cables with Ethernet can only deliver some of the new features, and the new Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable is the best way to connect HDMI 2.1 enabled devices to ensure delivery of all the features.

With a lot of these features it can come down to paying for the hdmi algorithm to enable the feature if the chipset has the right compatibility is the way I look at it ?.