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Post by eeezlisning on Nov 11, 2017 14:56:35 GMT -5
I would like to play WAV (FLAC or other music files) off my computer to my home stereo system. I would like to get quality as well as just the ability to turn on any input from any device. With this in mind, I would think that if I connect my laptop headphone jack to the XSP-1 with a stereo 3.5mm to RCA cable, the laptop DAC has already come into play as far as coloring or influencing the sound of the music file. If I connect the laptop to a DC-1 with USB, the first DAC the music file encounters is the Emotiva's, thus I should get better sound. Does this seem accurate to the rest of you also?
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Post by mountain on Nov 11, 2017 15:02:52 GMT -5
Yes.
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Post by garbulky on Nov 11, 2017 15:13:37 GMT -5
I would like to play WAV (FLAC or other music files) off my computer to my home stereo system. I would like to get quality as well as just the ability to turn on any input from any device. With this in mind, I would think that if I connect my laptop headphone jack to the XSP-1 with a stereo 3.5mm to RCA cable, the laptop DAC has already come into play as far as coloring or influencing the sound of the music file. If I connect the laptop to a DC-1 with USB, the first DAC the music file encounters is the Emotiva's, thus I should get better sound. Does this seem accurate to the rest of you also? yes |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 11, 2017 17:02:32 GMT -5
yes...just always think of it this way: if the sound coming out started as digital and is coming out as analog - a DAC did its thing already.
And, regarding FLAC/WAV...got FLAC over WAV. Wav doesn't keep certain metadata - like...track #. So, if you want the tracks played the way they were on an album, WAV files won't do that automatically. For things where that makes a difference, you would not like it.
Mark
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Post by garbulky on Nov 14, 2017 13:17:26 GMT -5
What's the rest of your setup?
BTW, though the DC-1 is okay with USB, I thought the other inputs did better - coax, toslink optical etc all which sounded pretty much identical to me. Schiit is selling something called the Eitr which is supposed to be "better USB". This can be used with the DC-1. Having not heard the Eitr, I can't tell you if it's worth it. But I thought I'd just drop it here.
I have a desktop computer so I use a Musiland Digital Times digital audio transport which uses a PCI slot to work and outputs BNC. I haven't noticed a difference between BNC and coax and optical.
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andy12
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Post by andy12 on Nov 14, 2017 14:15:24 GMT -5
The Eitr is an excellent device from my experience with Dc-1 and Xsp-1.
I will be selling it soon along with a Dc-1 and other items. I now have the Schiit Gungnir multibit dac.
It has "Gen 5 " usb built in , which handles the same chores as the Eitr. To me the Eitr was a great improvement.
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Nov 14, 2017 14:41:37 GMT -5
So, let me get this straight; I send a file from point A to point B over traditional USB and it won't be a bit perfect copy at the destination?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 14, 2017 17:40:29 GMT -5
1) Data losses CAN occur with USB..... but shouldn't unless there's something terribly wrong (usually, when they do, you'll hear ticks and dropouts). Loss of bit-perfect-ness is more often the result of something going on in the computer. (In Windows computers, you want to make sure you pick a player program that supports WASAPI mode.... and SELECT WASAPI as your output mode to avoid this.) 2) The USB input on the DC-1 is asynchronous. That means that the DAC clocks the USB data rather than the computer. This should render that input immune to timing variations originating at the computer or from the cable (jitter). 3) In addition to possible data errors, it is possible for ground and power line noise to get into a DAC from the power lines in the USB cable. (The power supplies in most computers are very noisy.) I've seen this being an issue with some USB-powered DACs - when connected to certain systems and computers. I've NEVER seen it be an issue with the DC-1 (and rarely with other AC-powered DACs). 4) The DC-1 also has an ASRC, which re-clocks the data it receives from all of its inputs (but which can be turned off). The ASRC is somewhat redundant with the USB input; with the other inputs it should remove virtually any jitter that makes it to the DC-1. If you use a Coax or Optical input on the DC-1, and switch the ASRC OFF, then it would be reasonable to expect to hear possibly significant differences with different sources due to jitter. 5) If you use something like the EITR, you are simply substituting a different USB section for the one in the DC-1. However, if you leave the ASRC enabled, it will probably iron out most of any differences that might exist. So, let me get this straight; I send a file from point A to point B over traditional USB and it won't be a bit perfect copy at the destination? |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 14, 2017 18:24:32 GMT -5
If you use something like the EITR, you are simply substituting a different USB section for the one in the DC-1. However, if you leave the ASRC enabled, it will probably iron out most of any differences that might exist. Wait - using an IRON on a USB section? I thought heat was the enemy of electronics...? Mark |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 14, 2017 18:26:22 GMT -5
So, let me get this straight; I send a file from point A to point B over traditional USB and it won't be a bit perfect copy at the destination? No I didn't say that. It should be a bit perfect copy - especially if you are using a WASAPI protocol. Otherwise windows can resample your 44.1 khz audio to 48 khz no matter your connection. All I was saying was that when listening on my DC-1, I find the USB connection to be inferior sounding. Not by a lot. But by a little. Other people haven't heard this so that's my two cents. it's not big enought to affect the DC-1 not sounding spectacular though. Also bits is bits ignores something called jitter. It can be bit perfect but arrive at the wrong time. Asynchronous clocks can help out with this a lot. I personally haven't heard jitter. At least I don't think I have. It's "supposed" to get large before you can hear it. Something Keith told me some time ago was that the DC-1's USB connection is indeed galvanically isolated - which is a good thing. |
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Post by novisnick on Nov 14, 2017 18:35:52 GMT -5
If you use something like the EITR, you are simply substituting a different USB section for the one in the DC-1. However, if you leave the ASRC enabled, it will probably iron out most of any differences that might exist. Wait - using an IRON on a USB section? I thought heat was the enemy of electronics...? Mark You’d be surprised what I can do with my Seven Iron!  |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 14, 2017 18:57:04 GMT -5
Wait - using an IRON on a USB section? I thought heat was the enemy of electronics...? Mark You’d be surprised what I can do with my Seven Iron! View AttachmentThat can also be bad for electronics. Mark |
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Post by novisnick on Nov 14, 2017 19:11:09 GMT -5
You’d be surprised what I can do with my Seven Iron! That can also be bad for electronics. Mark Im from the old school of,,,,,,,,,,,if nothing else works, and the 7 Iron doesn’t fix it,,,,,,,, I MUST need a New one!
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Nov 15, 2017 0:37:10 GMT -5
So, let me get this straight; I send a file from point A to point B over traditional USB and it won't be a bit perfect copy at the destination? No I didn't say that. It should be a bit perfect copy - especially if you are using a WASAPI protocol. Otherwise windows can resample your 44.1 khz audio to 48 khz no matter your connection. All I was saying was that when listening on my DC-1, I find the USB connection to be inferior sounding. Not by a lot. But by a little. Other people haven't heard this so that's my two cents. it's not big enought to affect the DC-1 not sounding spectacular though. Also bits is bits ignores something called jitter. It can be bit perfect but arrive at the wrong time. Asynchronous clocks can help out with this a lot. I personally haven't heard jitter. At least I don't think I have. It's "supposed" to get large before you can hear it. Something Keith told me some time ago was that the DC-1's USB connection is indeed galvanically isolated - which is a good thing. So, what does the EITR give me (or anyone) if the DC-1 removes jitter and it's receiving all the data I'm sending it? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 15, 2017 16:09:33 GMT -5
Of course, nothing is perfect or absolute, so it's possible that the EITR might have better isolation, or a lower jitter clock circuit, than the DC-1 has. Honestly, I doubt that either is true, and I doubt that it would produce any sort of significant audible difference. Of course, it's also possible that more jitter might sound better, or even that different types of jitter might sound different.... (One of the reported effects of jitter is a sort of "softening or blurring" of the sound, so, yeah, it might sound subjectively better under some circumstances.) If you have the ASRC in the DC-1 enabled, then it is replacing the clock with its own, so you're "hearing" the clock used by the ASRC, and not the clock used by the DC-1 USB input or the one in the other gadget. Since the ASRC reduces any jitter that is present by a lot, it's highly unlikely than any audible difference would make it through. If the ASRC is disabled, then there's more opportunity for you to hear differences between the clock used by the DC-1's asynch USB input, and the clock used by the other USB-S/PDIF converter. Note that we're talking about REALLY tiny differences here.... We're talking about "error sidebands" that are 120 dB or so down..... But, then, really tiny differences can sometimes be audible (and we could be talking about the difference between two different spectra of sidebands 120 dB down.) I would also remind everyone that we don't live in a perfect world. The old style isochronous USB outputs on computers had a LOT of jitter. (More accurately, since they operated in packet mode, and the DAC was attempting to derive a clock from the data timing, they resulted in a lot of jitter.) A modern DAC with an asynch USB input will have very low jitter at its input... determined almost entirely by its clock. And, while an outboard USB input, like the EITR, might have even lower jitter (or might not), its S/PDIF output signal still enters the DC-1 through a S/PDIF connection... And, you guessed it, both S/PDIF outputs and inputs have jitter.... After all, nothing is perfect.  No I didn't say that. It should be a bit perfect copy - especially if you are using a WASAPI protocol. Otherwise windows can resample your 44.1 khz audio to 48 khz no matter your connection. All I was saying was that when listening on my DC-1, I find the USB connection to be inferior sounding. Not by a lot. But by a little. Other people haven't heard this so that's my two cents. it's not big enought to affect the DC-1 not sounding spectacular though. Also bits is bits ignores something called jitter. It can be bit perfect but arrive at the wrong time. Asynchronous clocks can help out with this a lot. I personally haven't heard jitter. At least I don't think I have. It's "supposed" to get large before you can hear it. Something Keith told me some time ago was that the DC-1's USB connection is indeed galvanically isolated - which is a good thing. So, what does the EITR give me (or anyone) if the DC-1 removes jitter and it's receiving all the data I'm sending it? |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 15, 2017 16:40:18 GMT -5
No I didn't say that. It should be a bit perfect copy - especially if you are using a WASAPI protocol. Otherwise windows can resample your 44.1 khz audio to 48 khz no matter your connection. All I was saying was that when listening on my DC-1, I find the USB connection to be inferior sounding. Not by a lot. But by a little. Other people haven't heard this so that's my two cents. it's not big enought to affect the DC-1 not sounding spectacular though. Also bits is bits ignores something called jitter. It can be bit perfect but arrive at the wrong time. Asynchronous clocks can help out with this a lot. I personally haven't heard jitter. At least I don't think I have. It's "supposed" to get large before you can hear it. Something Keith told me some time ago was that the DC-1's USB connection is indeed galvanically isolated - which is a good thing. So, what does the EITR give me (or anyone) if the DC-1 removes jitter and it's receiving all the data I'm sending it? Honestly I don't know. Schiit's had a bunch of upgrades to their USB input. I believe they already had ASRC on them on their USB inputs. But they keep upgrading them. The eitr is the latest one. One difference between the eitr and their gen 5 USB is that the eitr provides an SPDIF output. So you wouldn't be using the USB connection on the DC-1. Because of my experience so far with USB - and I'm not downing USB. I would just prefer an SPDIF connection. But I can't ignore that the SPDIF connection IS coming from a USB connection. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 15, 2017 17:00:49 GMT -5
As far as I know the EITR is a USB-to-S/PDIF converter with an asynch USB input...... which is NOT the same as having an ASRC. With an asynch USB input, the USB signal is clocked by the DAC at the input...... and that is specific to USB. The DC-1 also has an asynch USB input. Outboard USB-to-S/PDIF converters with asynch USB inputs are widely available - ranging from about $50 to about $5000 - or maybe a bit more. An ASRC is a separate device which sits in the signal path inside the DAC....... In the DC-1, the ASRC is applied to ALL of the digital inputs, including the USB input, but also the S/PDIF inputs. An ASRC, when used this way, acts as a sort of digital filter to remove jitter (how it does this is wondrous - and very complicated). So, on the DC-1, the USB signal is clocked by the DAC (because it has an asynch USB input). All of the inputs, including the USB input, are THEN passed through the ASRC. You can switch the ASRC off, but the USB input is always asynch. While technically correct, the way the settings on the DC-1 are described is confusing. The USB input on the DC-1 is always asynch. Setting the configuration to "synchronous" means that you're disabling the ASRC. (An ASRC is "an asynchronous sample rate converter" - and synchronous is the opposite of asynchronous... sort of. A S/PDIF connection uses the clock provided by the input signal. Therefore, it IS affected by any jitter that might come from the source, or that might find its way in through the cable. In addition to that, the actual S/PDIF input and output interface circuits each have a minimum amount of jitter. Jitter is not a yes or no proposition. It's like talking about vibration with cars. All cars vibrate when they're running.... but some do it more than others, or at a different pitch, or in different directions. I have no idea exactly what Schiit has been changing with the various different versions of their USB input. Since there is both hardware and firmware involved, there are lots of possibilities. (But, yes, the ideal USB input would simply deliver the bits, without changing them, and with no jitter - and, at that point, there would be no room for improvement.) So, what does the EITR give me (or anyone) if the DC-1 removes jitter and it's receiving all the data I'm sending it? Honestly I don't know. Schiit's had a bunch of upgrades to their USB input. I believe they already had ASRC on them on their USB inputs. But they keep upgrading them. The eitr is the latest one. One difference between the eitr and their gen 5 USB is that the eitr provides an SPDIF output. So you wouldn't be using the USB connection on the DC-1. Because of my experience so far with USB - and I'm not downing USB. I would just prefer an SPDIF connection. But I can't ignore that the SPDIF connection IS coming from a USB connection. |
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Post by eeezlisning on Nov 19, 2017 12:25:21 GMT -5
If I plug in USB speakers to my laptop I get audio output, so that seems to indicate the file has passed through a DAC on the way out USB ports also. So does the sound file take a different path within the computer if I plug in a USB speaker (going through a DAC) rather than a USB cable (no DAC)? That does not seem likely, nor that a cheap USB speaker has a DAC.
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Post by garbulky on Nov 20, 2017 8:48:44 GMT -5
If I plug in USB speakers to my laptop I get audio output, so that seems to indicate the file has passed through a DAC on the way out USB ports also. So does the sound file take a different path within the computer if I plug in a USB speaker (going through a DAC) rather than a USB cable (no DAC)? That does not seem likely, nor that a cheap USB speaker has a DAC. It indicates your USB speaker has a DAC in it - and a preamp/volume control. Also your USB speaker may use a different mode of USB than the DC-1. DC-1 uses USB 2 asynchronous. Your USB speaker may use USB 1.1 non asychronous - or not |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 20, 2017 9:36:22 GMT -5
Exactly....... USB is purely a digital format - so what's being sent to the speaker is digital. Therefore, the speaker MUST have a DAC in it. In general, whenever you connect ANY external USB sound device to a computer, the computer will see it as "a USB sound card" and treat it accordingly. (And, if you pick that USB sound card, you are bypassing the sound card in the computer; in fact you don't need an internal sound card at all.) The situation can be more confusing with devices like iPods and iPhones........ because their output connectors MAY have both analog and digital output signals on them. (When you have that, it can be difficult to figure out which signal is being used, and different devices may use one or the other.) If I plug in USB speakers to my laptop I get audio output, so that seems to indicate the file has passed through a DAC on the way out USB ports also. So does the sound file take a different path within the computer if I plug in a USB speaker (going through a DAC) rather than a USB cable (no DAC)? That does not seem likely, nor that a cheap USB speaker has a DAC. It indicates your USB speaker has a DAC in it - and a preamp/volume control. Also your USB speaker may use a different mode of USB than the DC-1. DC-1 uses USB 2 asynchronous. Your USB speaker may use USB 1.1 non asychronous - or not |
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