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Post by tutetibiimperes on Nov 17, 2017 21:30:16 GMT -5
With the HDMI 2.1 spec out, and processors from the major brands likely to support it in next year's models, what are Emotiva's plans regarding HDMI 2.1 support in current and future products? Will there be HDMI 2.1 boards for the XMC-1 and/or RMC-1? Will the EMP-1 be up-gradable at all?
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Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 17, 2017 21:36:04 GMT -5
With the HDMI 2.1 spec out, and processors from the major brands likely to support it in next year's models, what are Emotiva's plans regarding HDMI 2.1 support in current and future products? Will there be HDMI 2.1 boards for the XMC-1 and/or RMC-1? Will the EMP-1 be up-gradable at all? You should read the thread on HDMI 2.0b and you’ll know as much as anyone knows.
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Nov 18, 2017 0:21:29 GMT -5
Below are the HDMI 2.1 highlight points from the HDMI.org website:
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HDMI Specification 2.1 Feature Highlights Include:
1. Higher Video Resolutions support a range of higher resolutions and faster refresh rates including 8K60Hz and 4K120Hz for immersive viewing and smooth fast-action detail.
(While I realize that higher resolutions and refresh rates are the future, when do we really expect 8K to become mainstream. In the grand-scheme at this time, 4K@60 is still in it's infancy to the general public and the material is only a small percentage of most peoples viewning. Who here has 4K@60 content on there cable company programming? Not me! Again, yes this is the future, but we are only now to the point where 1080p native displays are fading from retailer showrooms,and HD content(not UHD content) still rules your cable companies content.)
2. Dynamic HDR ensures every moment of a video is displayed at its ideal values for depth, detail, brightness, contrast, and wider color gamuts—on a scene-by-scene or even a frame-by-frame basis.
(Yes, Dolby Vision and HDR10+ are highly prized features on 4K displays, but yes these are supported on the current HDMI 2.0a/b versions)
3. 48G cables enable up to 48Gbps bandwidth for uncompressed HDMI 2.1 feature support including 8K video with HDR. The cable is backwards compatible with earlier versions of the HDMI Specification and can be used with existing HDMI devices.come (Yes, this is a good move by the HDMI.org to get ahead of the game and be prepared for future 8K displays, but just exactly how long will it be when 8K content becomes available for the now non-existent 8K displays)
4. eARC supports the most advanced audio formats such as object-based audio, and enables advanced audio signal control capabilities including device auto-detect.
(Fantastic feature in theory, but how many of you here have actually consistently been able to use the present ARC? I haven't.)
5. Game Mode VRR features variable refresh rate, which enables a 3D graphics processor to display the image at the moment it is rendered for more fluid and better detailed gameplay, and for reducing or eliminating lag, stutter, and frame tearing.
(Admittedly, I'm not a gamer, but this sounds like it should be an improvement to your gaming experience)
The new specification will be available to all HDMI 2.0 Adopters and they will be notified when it is released early in Q2 2017.
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So I understand that some manufacturers may/might have HDMI 2.1 available on their top line gear in 2018, but exactly what will that get the buyer, except bragging rights of having an HDMI 2.1 equipped processor. For that matter when will 8K displays and content become prevalent enough in the market place to consider buying the display and content. Will Comcast/AT&T/Cox/Charter/CenturyLink/etc. actually be broadcasting in 4K anytime soon? Personally I don't see any of this happening until 2020, and by then we'll probably be seeing the HDMI Forum introducing the HDMI 3.0 spec.
I think once the HDMI 2.0b board is available, I'll be good for 2 years.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Nov 18, 2017 3:26:51 GMT -5
Knowing what I do about High-Speed Physical Interfaces and Media Access Controllers — which is an absurd amount at this point given that it isn't one of the things that I really care about, but hey, I'm paid to work on it, so, whatever — I'd be very surprised to see any real production HDMI 2.1 chip out by year-end 2018. There'll be pre-production and demonstration stuff, but nothing you can buy for any reasonable amount of money ... or would want to buy given the inevitable early stage bugs. In reality, I'd say you're looking at mid-to-late 2019 for reliable hardware.
And, no media that we're working with now needs anything that HDMI 2.1 offers. Seriously.
So, wait for the second generation offerings in the 2020 time frame and enjoy what you have.
Casey
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Post by Axis on Nov 18, 2017 4:38:33 GMT -5
I read this thread and I am still lost. Will the madness ever end is all I want to know.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 18, 2017 5:56:47 GMT -5
Will the madness ever end is all I want to know. Simple answer: no. Mark
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Nov 18, 2017 7:25:20 GMT -5
4k is just getting started. The manufacturers of equipment and content still have a long road of production and revenue stream with 4k. This cow must be milked before 8k becomes the norm in consumer video.
IMO, it’s going to be many years before 8k makes any inroads.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Nov 18, 2017 7:31:25 GMT -5
I read this thread and I am still lost. Will the madness ever end is all I want to know. In reality we don’t want the madness to end. We want technology to march forward and give us wonderful goodies. The problem is the fast pace these days and seemingly lack of backwards compatibility.
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Nov 18, 2017 7:48:14 GMT -5
Knowing what I do about High-Speed Physical Interfaces and Media Access Controllers — which is an absurd amount at this point given that it isn't one of the things that I really care about, but hey, I'm paid to work on it, so, whatever — I'd be very surprised to see any real production HDMI 2.1 chip out by year-end 2018. There'll be pre-production and demonstration stuff, but nothing you can buy for any reasonable amount of money ... or would want to buy given the inevitable early stage bugs. In reality, I'd say you're looking at mid-to-late 2019 for reliable hardware. And, no media that we're working with now needs anything that HDMI offers. Seriously. So, wait for the second generation offerings in the 2020 time frame and enjoy what you have. Casey I’d say Casey’s insight and experience on this is quite telling. To me it verifies the thoughts in my post.
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Post by lesliew on Nov 18, 2017 10:23:07 GMT -5
Knowing what I do about High-Speed Physical Interfaces and Media Access Controllers — which is an absurd amount at this point given that it isn't one of the things that I really care about, but hey, I'm paid to work on it, so, whatever — I'd be very surprised to see any real production HDMI 2.1 chip out by year-end 2018. There'll be pre-production and demonstration stuff, but nothing you can buy for any reasonable amount of money ... or would want to buy given the inevitable early stage bugs. In reality, I'd say you're looking at mid-to-late 2019 for reliable hardware. And, no media that we're working with now needs anything that HDMI 2.1 offers. Seriously. So, wait for the second generation offerings in the 2020 time frame and enjoy what you have. Casey +1 Lets not forget what happened to those early adopters of HDMI 2 that went out and brought all of those shiny new TV's, before hdcp 2.2 was fully ratified. The same thing is likely to happen to those who are clamoring for HDMI 2.1 now
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Post by Casey Leedom on Nov 18, 2017 11:52:17 GMT -5
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Nov 18, 2017 12:07:08 GMT -5
HDMI was the best idea the big OEMs ever came up with! Perceived planned obsolescence that allows the uneducated or misinformed to "upgrade" every six months. Never forget that.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Nov 18, 2017 14:59:00 GMT -5
My biggest complaint about HDMI is the incredibly crappy connectors.
Casey
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Post by rbk123 on Nov 18, 2017 18:13:50 GMT -5
I think once the HDMI 2.0b board is available, I'll be good for 2 years. Probably 4-5 years easy. The 2.1 changes are very substantial.
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Nov 19, 2017 10:18:34 GMT -5
Unless you are buying a 8K display very very soon, what do you need HDMI 2.1 for again? Remember HDMI is a chain and don't always assume the AVR/AVP is the weakest link. HDMI this or that is great if EVERYTHING is the same. Not everyone has a display with HDMI 2.0b yet. Heck I have an OLED display that does HDR and DV and it isn't even HDMI 2.0b so why should I even think about 2.1?
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Post by doc1963 on Nov 19, 2017 11:47:20 GMT -5
Unless you are buying a 8K display very very soon, what do you need HDMI 2.1 for again? Remember HDMI is a chain and don't always assume the AVR/AVP is the weakest link. HDMI this or that is great if EVERYTHING is the same. Not everyone has a display with HDMI 2.0b yet. Heck I have an OLED display that does HDR and DV and it isn't even HDMI 2.0b so why should I even think about 2.1? I totally agree. 4K UHD is not even close to being used to its full potential. For example, 95% of the currently available UDH Blu-rays are derived from 2K masters. What’s 8K going to do that 4K can’t...? Hollywood (and broadcast) hasn’t even caught up and we’re worried about it...
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Post by tutetibiimperes on Nov 19, 2017 13:21:54 GMT -5
To my knowledge you can't get 10 or 12 bit color with 4:4:4 chroma at 4K 60hz with any of the current flavors of HDMI 2.0, and while that's not a limitation given current content aside from games, that could change in the future.
The dynamic HDR capabilities and capability for lossless Dolby Atmos over ARC are also looking like they could be nice.
Perhaps some people here upgrade their AVRs more often than I do. To me an AVR should be able to last 5 years minimum before requiring replacement due to new standards, and ten years is even better. My current AVR is 15 years old (and really needs replacement as it doesn't do lossless audio or HDMI) so I want to make sure my next purchase whether it be AVR or processor is as future-proof as possible. While we may not need HDMI 2.1 right now, since it's right on the horizon it seems smarter to have it than not to have it.
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Post by garbulky on Nov 19, 2017 14:25:51 GMT -5
2.1 will happen and it will quickly be a huge issue when it does . Within an year , year and a half of models coming out. I doubt the xmc1 can accommodate the hardware
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Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 19, 2017 14:34:44 GMT -5
To my knowledge you can't get 10 or 12 bit color with 4:4:4 chroma at 4K 60hz with any of the current flavors of HDMI 2.0, and while that's not a limitation given current content aside from games, that could change in the future. The dynamic HDR capabilities and capability for lossless Dolby Atmos over ARC are also looking like they could be nice. Perhaps some people here upgrade their AVRs more often than I do. To me an AVR should be able to last 5 years minimum before requiring replacement due to new standards, and ten years is even better. My current AVR is 15 years old (and really needs replacement as it doesn't do lossless audio or HDMI) so I want to make sure my next purchase whether it be AVR or processor is as future-proof as possible. While we may not need HDMI 2.1 right now, since it's right on the horizon it seems smarter to have it than not to have it. To your OP, we can’t say what Emotiva’s plans are for 2.1. We can look at what they’ve done with 2.0, and what we’re expecting with 2.0b, and say that when 2.1 becomes ‘highly desirable’ or ‘necessary’, Emotiva will ‘likely’ release an upgrade for the RMC-1, and (if there’s sufficient bandwidth in the platform) ‘possibly’ for the XMC-1. As far as Emersa is concerned, it’s too early to say what it’s capable of (or if it will be released). Each of our components is a window between the components that surround it. Your amplifier may be a perfect match for your speakers, the window is wide open, all the sound that’s fit to print. But, you buy new, less sensitive speakers, and you need more power, the window closes some until you get an amp that’s better suited. Or maybe you move to a new home with a much larger listening room and the speakers can no longer fill the room, now you probably need new speakers and a new amp. Our AVR/AVP’s offer a similar window between the components they connect. From what’s been written it would be pretty easy to argue that—based on the surrounding equipment available today (video sources and displays)—most of us could live for the next five years with HDMI 2.0b. But specific users (gamers, early 8k adopters, ?) would need a 2.1 upgrade. I don’t think many people plan to upgrade their components on any schedule, and I’d be comfortable calling a 15 year old receiver obsolete (even if it’s still functional for your purposes), I’d say few here would wait that long. This is to say that wanting a 5 year window on an AVR/AVP is reasonable, but a 15 year window is not (even with upgrades). So at this point you’ll have to decide if the known plans for HDMI 2.0b are sufficient, or if you trust that Emotiva will provide upgrades to 2.1 within a time that’s reasonable for you.
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Post by garbulky on Nov 19, 2017 15:44:45 GMT -5
I can definitely see HDMI 2.0b happening. But HDMI 2.1 is a HUGE bandwith difference. The kind of processors and electronics need to cope with that kind of load well I have a hard time seeing any of the current 4k capable units includig the XMC-1 being able to "upgrade". The XMC-1 has the advantage that it's modular. But even then, there are limits.
PC's have been modular at least since the late 80's and that does't mean you can make a pentium iii a core i7 without throwing every single thing away. In fact most pc's that are almost fully modular still ends up with you buying an entire new pc after the upgrades stop being cost effective. So just because something is modular does't mean it's cost effective to upgrade it. Already they had to replace the DSP processors just to keep things capable for the upcoming standards. But the idea originally was that the DSP processors in place were already supposed to be incredibly fast so that it could handle what was to come. The current upgrade is about a $1000. Which it's do-able. But look around and you'll see 4k hdr capable units with atmos and dts for a $1000. It's still a $1000 and not here yet.
When the HDMi 2.1 comes out and the upgrade if there is one materializes...presumably after a delay where other processes would have beaten it ....will it be another $1000?
It's an impossible hill. I for one probably would be able to put up with the whole $1000 upgrade for some time because I presumably would want the quality of the XMC-1. I know I don't like that my DC-1 is becoming quickly obsolete due to lack of an HDMI slot because I DO want the superb quality it provides. So I would be willing to pay to upgrade the DC-1 because I don't want some switching power supply in my dac with the DC-2.
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