SOLVED Wifi crashing with increased smart home devices

[garbulky]

I appreciate all the good advice. I learned a lot but some of the posts are completely over my head. For me setting a wifi password and accessing the setup web page was tough! My internet is only 15mbps so powerful wifi isn't too important as my actual video devices are hardwired in to the router.
However, I hear you guys about the need for a new router. So after a couple of days, after I switched from the mixed band setting to G sertting, here's what I found.

The wifi devices are much more stable now. However it still was not without crashes. I think Keith's "cycling of the device list" may be true here. Luckily the crashes I encounter have only been three brief ones and it looked like the devices picked things back up quickly within a few minutes. Also it's only been on a few devices. For me, that's well within acceptable limits as for the most part it's been nice and stable. So I shall keep on with my ancient router unless more problems crop up.

[pknaz]

I had a lot of issues with consumer grade routers, from every brand. The issues I had were similar to ones you describe. Random reboots of the router, random dropping of client machines (even on a wired connection). I eventually gave up consumer grade routers and built my own, so glad I did. It was quite a learning curve. Based on some of the threads you've posted in, and some of the comments you've made, I'm confident you could learn the required skills

pfSense is the router software I ended up settling on.

[garbulky]

Update: Wifi issues have cropped up again. Looks like my wifi router is simply too old and cannot handle the near 30 devices I've got connecting to it.
A relative has a good router he is not using but from what I gather it ONLY does wifi. NO ethernet connections. So this is a problem because I have four devices that are hard wired to the internet using ethernet cables.

My connections go like this. My cable (?) modem has a single ethernet output which goes to my current linksys wifi router. The wifi router has four ethernet out ports PLUS wifi. All four ports are used. The new router won't have have ethernet ports or an ethernet out. It only has an internet in. So is there a way to use the old wifi for ethernet output with the new wifi router.
I'm thinking some sort of wifi connection between the two that they can share. The new wifi router takes the wifi connection from the first one and uses it as the source or something?

Remember wifi speed is not important for me - at all. Just stability.

[DYohn]

DHCP or static IPs?

[garbulky]

Dec 26, 2017 13:14:16 GMT -5 DYohn said:

DHCP or static IPs?

I have no idea what this means. I'm really bad at network stuff.
So I'm looking at things and it looks like wifi is limited to 32 devices per network band. The problem is that all my devices are 2.4 ghz devices (not 5 ghz devices). So I'm wondering if a better wifi router will even make sense.

[DYohn]

Dec 26, 2017 13:44:38 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Dec 26, 2017 13:14:16 GMT -5 DYohn said:

DHCP or static IPs?

I have no idea what this means. I'm really bad at network stuff.
So I'm looking at things and it looks like wifi is limited to 32 devices per network band. The problem is that all my devices are 2.4 ghz devices (not 5 ghz devices). So I'm wondering if a better wifi router will even make sense.

That means most likely you are letting everything set itself up automatically, yes? That would be DHCP, and the only solution if your current router is crashing from the number of devices is to upgrade your router. Most home use routers will handle 50 DHCP addresses (simultaneous connections) but if the above info is correct yours hits max at 32, which is likely your problem. Get a new router that can handle 50-70 users (I like D-Link or Linksys or ASUS for low cost solutions.)

[novisnick]

Dec 26, 2017 13:44:38 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Dec 26, 2017 13:14:16 GMT -5 DYohn said:

DHCP or static IPs?

I have no idea what this means. I'm really bad at network stuff.
So I'm looking at things and it looks like wifi is limited to 32 devices per network band. The problem is that all my devices are 2.4 ghz devices (not 5 ghz devices). So I'm wondering if a better wifi router will even make sense.

I have a netgear router, I think its model #6700, 27 Devices on It without problems. 5 ghz doesn’t do walls very well.
My router ran about $100 I think, Ive owned two of these in the passed 10 years or so. Maybe longer.

[garbulky]

Dec 26, 2017 14:24:33 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Dec 26, 2017 13:44:38 GMT -5 garbulky said:

I have no idea what this means. I'm really bad at network stuff.
So I'm looking at things and it looks like wifi is limited to 32 devices per network band. The problem is that all my devices are 2.4 ghz devices (not 5 ghz devices). So I'm wondering if a better wifi router will even make sense.

That means most likely you are letting everything set itself up automatically, yes? That would be DHCP, and the only solution if your current router is crashing from the number of devices is to upgrade your router. Most home use routers will handle 50 DHCP addresses (simultaneous connections) but if the above info is correct yours hits max at 32, which is likely your problem. Get a new router that can handle 50-70 users (I like D-Link or Linksys or ASUS for low cost solutions.)

Yes they are setup automatically. But as per my previous post most of my devices are 2.4 ghz. It looks like there is a 32 max limit on the band. So getting a dual band which does 5 ghz as well as 2.4 ghz doesn't really correct ther problem right?

Most of the devices are smart switches, lights etc. But I have many echo dots which I think does 5ghz. So maybe that will solve the issue. I don't know!
I didn't know about smart hubs when purchasing all the smart home gadgets. So that may have been a wiser choice perhaps to avoid load on the router. From what I gather none of my smart home devices are compatible with the main smart hubs.

[DYohn]

No, the limit on any wireless router is theoretically 250 connections, it has nothing to do witht he transmission frequency. Most 2.4 GHz devices these days can handle 50 devices.

I don't know anything about "smart home" devices (and I refuse to have any of the "Alexa" or "Siri" type listening devices in my home.)

[LuisV]

I believe I asked this before, but never got answer... what brands have you purchased?

[garbulky]

Dec 26, 2017 15:24:06 GMT -5 DYohn said:

No, the limit on any wireless router is theoretically 250 connections, it has nothing to do witht he transmission frequency. Most 2.4 GHz devices these days can handle 50 devices.

I don't know anything about "smart home" devices (and I refuse to have any of the "Alexa" or "Siri" type listening devices in my home.)

I was looking at the Netgear Nighthawk which has a lot of antennas but outside my price range. I found this.
kb.netgear.com/24043/How-many-clients-can-you-connect-wirelessly-to-a-NETGEAR-router

[DYohn]

smallbusiness.chron.com/maximum-number-users-linksys-35410.html

Get a Linksys WRT1900

[valgolfs]

I changed my modem to an Arris Surfboard at the same time a new Nighthawk router and it's been fabulous, no issues well worth the money and hassle. Just the wife and I, surfing some streaming but my theater gear is wired. Good luck to you.

[KeithL]

The internal details of networking can get very complicated.
For example, you may have lots of devices, but they aren't all "talking" at once.
You also need to differentiate "simultaneous connections" and "listed items".

To use an analogy to telephone lines......
Your office phone PBX may be able to support a given number of extensions (meaning that you can connect that many phones to it).
And another number tells you how many people can simultaneously call out at once.
And there may be yet another number that tells you how many phones can be  in use at the same time - for both internal and external calls.
(For example, if you have ten outside lines, ten people can call out at the same time, but maybe sixteen phones can be in use at the same time - because some are being used for inside calls.)

IP addresses are like phone numbers; each TCP/IP device must have an IP address - which must be unique on your network.
(A device on my network may have the same IP address as one on yours - but two devices on the SAME network segment cannot have the same address - just as you can't assign the same phone extension to multiple phones.)

DHCP is a system that assigns and keeps track of addresses.....
Your DHCP server has a list of addresses which it controls - known as its address pool.
Whenever a device connects to the network, it asks the DHCP server for an address; and the DHCP server "assigns it an address from the pool".
(Think of it like telling your switchboard operator that you'll be at a certain extension for the rest of the day.)
Usually things are set so that, after a certain amount of time, if the address hasn't been used, it is returned to the pool of available addresses.
The catch is that this timeout is normally set for somewhere between one hour and several days.
So, when you turn on your laptop, it gets assigned an address; and, even if you turn it off ten minutes later, that address remains assigned to it until the clock runs out...
Because every smart device, and most phones, will ask for an address... if you have a lot of people running in and out, or a lot of smart devices, you can end up with a lot of devices being assigned addresses.
Most of those devices may not even be connected, but they're still "using up" an address off of the limited list of total addresses, until they "time out off the list".
And, once the list gets filled up, if a new device connects, the oldest device on the list will usually get "bumped off" - or the new device may be refused an address (in which case it won't work).
(Rebooting the router usually clears this list - which is why it often fixes "network problems".)
The DHCP system was introduced as an easy way to automatically keep track of devices and addresses.
You are choosing this option when you click the a box that says something like "get address from server" - which is the default for most devices.

"Using static IP addresses" simply means that you choose NOT to use the DHCP system... which means that YOU do all the work yourself.
There are certain addresses that are valid on your network..... (you know which ones because you set up the network, right?)
You manually decide which of these to assign to each device, enter the address directly into each device, and manually configure your router.
As you might expect, this system has the most flexibility, but takes the most work, and offers the most opportunities to create interesting problems if you get something wrong.
(Many modern devices don't offer you the option to manually enter an address.)

There's also a sort of in-between situation.
Most routers that support DHCP also offer you the option of "manually entering devices on the list".
You essentially give the router a list of specific addresses you want assigned to specific devices, and allow it to assign the rest automatically.
This allows you to make sure that certain important devices always get an address.
It also allows you to make sure that certain devices always get assigned the SAME address (this is a requirement for various servers and some games).

Note that DHCP works very well - AS LONG AS YOU ONLY HAVE ONE DHCP SERVER.
However, if you have multiple routers, it's almost always a good idea to disable DHCP on all but one of them.
Having multiple DHCP devices trying to manage the same pool of addresses is a recipe for disaster, and really odd problems, unless you configure them all VERY carefully.)
And, likewise, assigning static addresses to certain devices, WITHOUT configuring your DHCP server not to assign those addresses to a duplicate device, is likely to cause problems.

That "32 devices per band" would be a hardware limit for the particular router brand and model you're using.... and, apparently, that number is a common limit.

Dec 26, 2017 13:44:38 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Dec 26, 2017 13:14:16 GMT -5 DYohn said:

DHCP or static IPs?

I have no idea what this means. I'm really bad at network stuff.
So I'm looking at things and it looks like wifi is limited to 32 devices per network band. The problem is that all my devices are 2.4 ghz devices (not 5 ghz devices). So I'm wondering if a better wifi router will even make sense.

[garbulky]

Dec 27, 2017 12:26:42 GMT -5 KeithL said:

The internal details of networking can get very complicated.
For example, you may have lots of devices, but they aren't all "talking" at once.
You also need to differentiate "simultaneous connections" and "listed items".

To use an analogy to telephone lines......
Your office phone PBX may be able to support a given number of extensions (meaning that you can connect that many phones to it).
And another number tells you how many people can simultaneously call out at once.
And there may be yet another number that tells you how many phones can be  in use at the same time - for both internal and external calls.
(For example, if you have ten outside lines, ten people can call out at the same time, but maybe sixteen phones can be in use at the same time - because some are being used for inside calls.)

IP addresses are like phone numbers; each TCP/IP device must have an IP address - which must be unique on your network.
(A device on my network may have the same IP address as one on yours - but two devices on the SAME network segment cannot have the same address - just as you can't assign the same phone extension to multiple phones.)

DHCP is a system that assigns and keeps track of addresses.....
Your DHCP server has a list of addresses which it controls - known as its address pool.
Whenever a device connects to the network, it asks the DHCP server for an address; and the DHCP server "assigns it an address from the pool".
(Think of it like telling your switchboard operator that you'll be at a certain extension for the rest of the day.)
Usually things are set so that, after a certain amount of time, if the address hasn't been used, it is returned to the pool of available addresses.
The catch is that this timeout is normally set for somewhere between one hour and several days.
So, when you turn on your laptop, it gets assigned an address; and, even if you turn it off ten minutes later, that address remains assigned to it until the clock runs out...
Because every smart device, and most phones, will ask for an address... if you have a lot of people running in and out, or a lot of smart devices, you can end up with a lot of devices being assigned addresses.
Most of those devices may not even be connected, but they're still "using up" an address off of the limited list of total addresses, until they "time out off the list".
And, once the list gets filled up, if a new device connects, the oldest device on the list will usually get "bumped off" - or the new device may be refused an address (in which case it won't work).
(Rebooting the router usually clears this list - which is why it often fixes "network problems".)
The DHCP system was introduced as an easy way to automatically keep track of devices and addresses.
You are choosing this option when you click the a box that says something like "get address from server" - which is the default for most devices.

"Using static IP addresses" simply means that you choose NOT to use the DHCP system... which means that YOU do all the work yourself.
There are certain addresses that are valid on your network..... (you know which ones because you set up the network, right?)
You manually decide which of these to assign to each device, enter the address directly into each device, and manually configure your router.
As you might expect, this system has the most flexibility, but takes the most work, and offers the most opportunities to create interesting problems if you get something wrong.
(Many modern devices don't offer you the option to manually enter an address.)

There's also a sort of in-between situation.
Most routers that support DHCP also offer you the option of "manually entering devices on the list".
You essentially give the router a list of specific addresses you want assigned to specific devices, and allow it to assign the rest automatically.
This allows you to make sure that certain important devices always get an address.
It also allows you to make sure that certain devices always get assigned the SAME address (this is a requirement for various servers and some games).

Note that DHCP works very well - AS LONG AS YOU ONLY HAVE ONE DHCP SERVER.
However, if you have multiple routers, it's almost always a good idea to disable DHCP on all but one of them.
Having multiple DHCP devices trying to manage the same pool of addresses is a recipe for disaster, and really odd problems, unless you configure them all VERY carefully.)
And, likewise, assigning static addresses to certain devices, WITHOUT configuring your DHCP server not to assign those addresses to a duplicate device, is likely to cause problems.

That "32 devices per band" would be a hardware limit for the particular router brand and model you're using.... and, apparently, that number is a common limit.

Dec 26, 2017 13:44:38 GMT -5 garbulky said:

I have no idea what this means. I'm really bad at network stuff.
So I'm looking at things and it looks like wifi is limited to 32 devices per network band. The problem is that all my devices are 2.4 ghz devices (not 5 ghz devices). So I'm wondering if a better wifi router will even make sense.

So by band - does that mean 2.4 ghz is one band? Or can there be multiple bands in 2.4 ghz? Like if the router has four antennas does that mean 2.4 ghz X4?

[KeithL]

In the old days, most "cable modems" were bridges, and services like DHCP were usually handled "upstream".
I seem to recall my cable modem from 1985 allowing a total of five devices to be connected to it.

However, most modern "cable Internet boxes" are actually pretty sophisticated.
For example, my current "cable modem" from XFinity here in Tennessee...
- it really is a cable modem, operating on the DOCSIS 3 standard (data over coax; it has a 75 Ohm F-connector coming in)
- it includes a four port 100 mBit wired Ethernet switch
- it includes a two port router that routes between the Internet and the local traffic
- it includes a dual-band WiFi router
- it includes dual VOIP phone channels (voice - over IP - over cable)
- and, yes, a DHCP server

It seems to be a quite capable router (I don't know its device limit - but I've never hit it).

However, the real issue for newcomers is to make sure you don't connect multiple devices with DHCP servers in them (unless you either disable all but one of them or actually configure them all to work together).
I would also note that while you're right, and adding a "simple access point" won't affect your configuration much, the last "Access Point" I purchased could be configured as an access point... or a bridge... or a router.
(So you do need to be cognizant of what every box you add actually does... and what you set it to do.)

Dec 14, 2017 15:21:30 GMT -5 pknaz said:

Dec 14, 2017 14:22:50 GMT -5 KeithL said:

All routers have SOME limit as to how many devices they can hold in their DHCP table.
That limit is the total number of addresses that router can hand out and keep track of.
On some older routers and cable modems, that limit was as low as 5 or 10 devices (you might be amazed how fast the count adds up if you have a lot of gadgets)
On most modern devices it's far higher.

Once you get past a single router you sort of HAVE to understand what you're doing.
For example, having two DHCP servers handing out addresses from the same pool would be a disaster.
(If you have two routers with DHCP servers, you can disable one of them, or assign each a different set of non-overlapping addresses.)

Modems (Let's call these gateways, since they rarely are doing modulation/demodulation anymore) are a different topic, they are generally pretty limited (By the ISP, primarily, not their hardware capabilities) in the number of IP Addresses they will assign, with the usual assumption that there will be a downstream router.

I've not seen a router in almost two decades (even residential class) that couldn't handle either an ARP table, DHCP table, or DNS requirements for a single Class C IP Address space.  Adding a Wireless Access Point (AP) to his network isn't going to impact his router's capabilities or configuration. 

[KeithL]

2.4 gHz is one band..... and, no, multiple antennas do not count as "multiple bands".

Dec 27, 2017 12:47:47 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Dec 27, 2017 12:26:42 GMT -5 KeithL said:

The internal details of networking can get very complicated.
For example, you may have lots of devices, but they aren't all "talking" at once.
You also need to differentiate "simultaneous connections" and "listed items".

To use an analogy to telephone lines......
Your office phone PBX may be able to support a given number of extensions (meaning that you can connect that many phones to it).
And another number tells you how many people can simultaneously call out at once.
And there may be yet another number that tells you how many phones can be  in use at the same time - for both internal and external calls.
(For example, if you have ten outside lines, ten people can call out at the same time, but maybe sixteen phones can be in use at the same time - because some are being used for inside calls.)

IP addresses are like phone numbers; each TCP/IP device must have an IP address - which must be unique on your network.
(A device on my network may have the same IP address as one on yours - but two devices on the SAME network segment cannot have the same address - just as you can't assign the same phone extension to multiple phones.)

DHCP is a system that assigns and keeps track of addresses.....
Your DHCP server has a list of addresses which it controls - known as its address pool.
Whenever a device connects to the network, it asks the DHCP server for an address; and the DHCP server "assigns it an address from the pool".
(Think of it like telling your switchboard operator that you'll be at a certain extension for the rest of the day.)
Usually things are set so that, after a certain amount of time, if the address hasn't been used, it is returned to the pool of available addresses.
The catch is that this timeout is normally set for somewhere between one hour and several days.
So, when you turn on your laptop, it gets assigned an address; and, even if you turn it off ten minutes later, that address remains assigned to it until the clock runs out...
Because every smart device, and most phones, will ask for an address... if you have a lot of people running in and out, or a lot of smart devices, you can end up with a lot of devices being assigned addresses.
Most of those devices may not even be connected, but they're still "using up" an address off of the limited list of total addresses, until they "time out off the list".
And, once the list gets filled up, if a new device connects, the oldest device on the list will usually get "bumped off" - or the new device may be refused an address (in which case it won't work).
(Rebooting the router usually clears this list - which is why it often fixes "network problems".)
The DHCP system was introduced as an easy way to automatically keep track of devices and addresses.
You are choosing this option when you click the a box that says something like "get address from server" - which is the default for most devices.

"Using static IP addresses" simply means that you choose NOT to use the DHCP system... which means that YOU do all the work yourself.
There are certain addresses that are valid on your network..... (you know which ones because you set up the network, right?)
You manually decide which of these to assign to each device, enter the address directly into each device, and manually configure your router.
As you might expect, this system has the most flexibility, but takes the most work, and offers the most opportunities to create interesting problems if you get something wrong.
(Many modern devices don't offer you the option to manually enter an address.)

There's also a sort of in-between situation.
Most routers that support DHCP also offer you the option of "manually entering devices on the list".
You essentially give the router a list of specific addresses you want assigned to specific devices, and allow it to assign the rest automatically.
This allows you to make sure that certain important devices always get an address.
It also allows you to make sure that certain devices always get assigned the SAME address (this is a requirement for various servers and some games).

Note that DHCP works very well - AS LONG AS YOU ONLY HAVE ONE DHCP SERVER.
However, if you have multiple routers, it's almost always a good idea to disable DHCP on all but one of them.
Having multiple DHCP devices trying to manage the same pool of addresses is a recipe for disaster, and really odd problems, unless you configure them all VERY carefully.)
And, likewise, assigning static addresses to certain devices, WITHOUT configuring your DHCP server not to assign those addresses to a duplicate device, is likely to cause problems.

That "32 devices per band" would be a hardware limit for the particular router brand and model you're using.... and, apparently, that number is a common limit.

So by band - does that mean 2.4 ghz is one band? Or can there be multiple bands in 2.4 ghz? Like if the router has four antennas does that mean 2.4 ghz X4?

[KeithL]

I think you're looking at this wrong.
The current problems you're having could be due to WiFi issues, or routing engine issues, or a slightly flaky DHCP server.
There is no reason to specifically believe that they'll all go away if you use a different router JUST for WiFi - and continue to use the flaky router for everything else.
For example, if the DHCP server simply can't handle 30 devices, then that will be true regardless of how they're connected.
Take this opportunity to get rid of the router that's giving you problems.

In addition to that, connecting one WiFi device to a second WiFi device in order to use wired Ethernet ports on the second device is sort of silly.
You're attempting to rely on a WiFi connection between two wireless devices, one of which you already know is flaky.
Beyond that, you're trying to patch together those devices in a non-standard configuration, which is going to require serious planning - and may not end up working right anyway.
(Which device's DHCP server were you planning to use? Were you planning to use both: If so, how were you planning to manage the address pools?)

To be honest, while I suspect it COULD be done the way you suggest, it would require complicated configuration, and probably wouldn't work well.
If you do it that way, you're just asking for complications, complicated configuration issues, and poor performance.
The most relevant fact is that wired Ethernet switches that perform remarkably well are dirt cheap and dead simple to connect (you can get a good 8-port wired Ethernet switch for $25.)
Therefore, it's not at all worthwhile to mess around with WiFi connections just to "recycle" the four wired Ethernet ports on that box.

If you want to keep your current cable modem, and improve both the performance and the reliability on your network, for the least cost, here's what you do....
- Buy an 8-port wired Ethernet switch; a fast one should cost you about $25; this is where all of your wired devices get connected (consider this switch to be "the center" of your network).
- Connect the Ethernet output port on your cable modem to one of the Ethernet ports on your switch; this is your network's Internet connection.
- Buy a separate WiFi router to handle all of your WiFi connections; and connect its Ethernet input to one of the ports on your switch.

For a more simple alternative, you might consider a new all-in-one unit that includes the cable modem and both wired and WiFi connections - if your cable company allows you to purchase your own equipment.
Alternately, you could purchase an all-in-one router, which includes all of the pieces except a cable modem, and connect it to your current cable modem.

To be honest, that router your relative offered you isn't good for much, unless what you really WANT is a single cable connection and only WiFi network connections.....
That's the way it's designed to be used - which is why they didn't include wired Ethernet ports.

Otherwise, and in general, a wired connection is ALWAYS going to give you better performance AND better reliability....
(and a WiFi connection is always going to be a compromise - tolerated for the sake of convenience).

Dec 26, 2017 12:55:12 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Update: Wifi issues have cropped up again. Looks like my wifi router is simply too old and cannot handle the near 30 devices I've got connecting to it.
A relative has a good router he is not using but from what I gather it ONLY does wifi. NO ethernet connections. So this is a problem because I have four devices that are hard wired to the internet using ethernet cables.

My connections go like this. My cable (?) modem has a single ethernet output which goes to my current linksys wifi router. The wifi router has four ethernet out ports PLUS wifi. All four ports are used. The new router won't have have ethernet ports or an ethernet out. It only has an internet in. So is there a way to use the old wifi for ethernet output with the new wifi router.
I'm thinking some sort of wifi connection between the two that they can share. The new wifi router takes the wifi connection from the first one and uses it as the source or something?

Remember wifi speed is not important for me - at all. Just stability.

[millst]

DHCP configuration can only lower the maximum number of devices supported by your wireless router. You can switch to a class A network scheme and set your DHCP server range to include 16 million addresses. That doesn't mean your router will ever get past ~30-60.

Your routers limit comes from its software design, hardware limitations, and the limits of the how the radio spectrum itself is utilized. Newer routers have more memory and faster processors, which means more connected devices. Up until the point that the spectrum is too congested.

Generally, your devices will keep running fine even if the DHCP server goes down. They already have their IPs and will keep them until told otherwise. If two devices get the same IP (due to misconfigured router) then those two devices will fight with each other and not work well. However, it isn't likely to lead to random issues.

If you want to rule out the DHCP server, set all your devices to static IPs and disable it.

I agree with Keith. Don't complicate your setup further. Suck it up and invest some money on one decent mid-level device. It doesn't have to be a top-of-the-line model.

-tm

[AudioHTIT]

Dec 28, 2017 13:17:49 GMT -5 millst said:

... Suck it up and invest some money on one decent mid-level device. It doesn't have to be a top-of-the-line model..

Yes, and as mentioned previously, put your more capable devices on the 5GHz network which will reduce congestion for the devices that will only work on 2.4GHz.