Before I return the XPA-2 gen3...

[emoticon]

I wanted to hear some thoughts. My first Emo product was the A100 which I used to drive my Atc Scm7 loudspeakers in my living room. I then moved up to the A300 and it was a clear improvement (one of those where a blind a/b test is not needed). Everything sounded sweet and full bodied and as dynamic as one get with a 7 liter cabinet. Much to my wife’s dismay, I hauled my Scm19s from the basement up to the living room. The A300s couldn’t keep up with the scm19s. I am used to my Classe 2200 (if you don’t know this amp, I would recommend reading up on it) driving my scm19s  but the Classe is 85 lbs and is staying in the basement (in a box waiting for a remodel of the man cave). I figured I’ll give the XPA-2 a try. I’ve never liked class D sound and am able to instantly pick out that sound blindly. I’ve owned very expensive class D gear in the past and sold all of them after I heard the Classe. I’ve obviously owned class A/B with the Emos but the SMPS in the XPA range kinda bothered me. I figured it’s almost 2018 and tech does get better. But after living with the XPA for 2 weeks, I feel the sound is edgy and doesn’t have that smooth, curvy, voluptuous sound that the Classe or even the A300 (driving the scm7) has. I am not technically that savvy with amplifier design or electronics, but at a high level I understand that the A300 has a toroidal transformer and the XPA has an SMPS. Is this the difference I am hearing? Is it something else? It’s definitely not lack of power because the dynamics at high volume are there and in fact, I feel the XPA is quite comfortable with the load.

One thing I will try before I send the XPA packing is to drive the SCM7s with it. The source is Oppo Sonica Dac direct to amp - xlr with the XPA and RCA with the A300. Mogami Gold and Blue Jeans - calling this out in case someone accuses me of using fancy cables for tone control..

If you’ve gotten this far, thank you and to make it worth it, please share your thoughts. 

NB: I know the XPA measures well. I wish amps would only be different in power and not sound different. I hope the industry standardizes on an amp and moves on so it’s just a matter of aesthetics and features. Until then, I will have keep playing this stupid game of trying different amps. 

[vcautokid]

To be honest, I think it is the very present Sabre DACs that give that bit of edge you might find not to your liking. I noticed that trait with Sabres when I hear them on other gear. I think the XPA-2 is correctly just showing what is happening. Of course at the end of the day, you have to be happy with the result you want. Just my humble opinion, and 2 cents.

[emoticon]

That might very well be the case. I have not tried the oppo via the Classe and this is my first experience with Sabre. I need to think about my next steps a bit more now.. thanks!

[teaman]

I don't doubt it. I know several forum members have spoken out against the Oppo Sabre chip taking away from what they wanted to hear, or adding to what they expected to hear. Try to reroute everything avoiding the on board DAC in the Oppo and let us know if that was it.

[Gary Cook]

Dec 28, 2017 22:59:50 GMT -5 emoticon said:

the sound is edgy

As vcautokid and teaman both mentioned that's very much a well know Sabre DAC trait in Oppo implementations that some like and others dislike.   It's not right or wrong, just everyone hears differently. 

I suspect that what you are noticing is a double whammy, the Sabre ADC sound plus the loss of the Classe Delta CA2200's (around here that's a $A7,500 amp) up to 60 watts of Class A. As the others have suggested I think you need to try the combinations. On the A300, they do have a very slight (to my ears) roll off at higher frequencies that the XPA-2 Gen 3 won't have. Which is just going to mean the Sabre DAC edginess is gunna get amplified (sic).

In summary, mix it up and live with it for while, then make the decision.

Happy New Year to All
Gary

[brubacca]

Can you try the source you are using in the Basement? You have described the sound I hear when listening to the venerated Oppo BDP-105 into Rogue Audio gear.

[audiobill]

"smooth, curvy, voluptuous sound "

Ever try tubes? Many have sworn off "silicon sound" and been delighted they did.

[Boomzilla]

Hi emoticon -

I agree with you. I also find that switching power supply amps (the few that I've heard) sound inferior to conventional power supply ones. But I haven't heard the latest generation Emotiva amps or the highly-rated N-core products. So it's possible that the amps can sound much better than the Crown XLS series amps that I have heard.

I also agree with audiobill that tube sound is a highly different thing, and one that you may like. Also, vcautokid makes a good point about Sabre DACs. Although the Oppo BDP-105 had a Sabre DAC, the new generation of Sabre DACs (used in the UDP-205 and the Oppo Sonica) are definitely brighter - LOTS brighter...

That said, the Parasound amp that you have is supposed to be a good one.

So maybe you could try out your Emotiva amp in a buddy's system? From what I've read elsewhere, the new Gen 3 Emotiva amps are VERY good sounding, and I'm thinking that your Soncia DAC is making more of what you don't like than your amp is. But that's just my speculation...

Cheers - Boomzilla

[bluemeanies]

I don't think it is the SABRE DAC CHIP itself. The mechanics surrounding the SABRE chip dacs is where dor in addition too is what makes the difference.
For instance, the Grace m920 pre-amp /dac employs a SABRE chip compared to the OPPO 93 with the SABRE and the GRACE outperforms the 93 with a more natural sound. I have both units and a couple of years ago I did my own A/B comparison.
I also had the XPA1's and switched to TUBES which complimented the Grace.
For me, the real, lifelike sound...natural are TUBES with a good adequate preamp.
SS is great for the Home Theater angle but I will never go back to SS in the 2channel arena....MO

[garbulky]

The XPA-2 gen 3 had poor measurements on Stereophiles test which is why I don't usually recomend it. But also look you've got a Classe 2200 amp which is a fully balanced stereo amp that doesn't look like it's got any kind of compromise on it. I don't think you could expect the same results!

Now a few things - yes the Oppo's aren't the best DACs out there. And both the 105 and the 205 have bright sound signature.
Second - did you adjust the placement and toe in of the speakers after this amp install to optimize placement?. If you didn't that may be your problem right there. No further steps may be needed! If you've noticed that these amps sound different, then it makes sense that each amp may have a different speaker position that locks it in just right.

If you do want some of the best two channel sound Emotiva has to offer, you really owe it to yourself to try the XPA-1 gen2 which imo is one heck of a no holds barred amp. I wouldn't hesitate to compare it to your Classe. However, it takes up twice the space and is significantly heavier.

You can also try out the Bob Latino tubes as mentioned. But I didn't find them without faults - namely slowness in the treble and somewhat muddy bass - compared to the XPA-1 gen 2. Now granted the XPA-1 gen 2 is the best amp I've heard and it really is on another level in detail refinement so it may be unfair here to compare a gargantuan 1000 watt class A beast with tubes.
But the tubes do portray a remarkably wide and palpable soundstage with a live type of sound - as long as your speakers aren't too demanding.
And they are definitely different sounding. For some people, that kind of reach out and touch it sound is very pleasing.

[Gary Cook]

I have absolutely no doubt that the implementation and the voicing of the DAC has an influence on what it ultimately sounds like. But that said I have yet to hear a Sabre DAC implementation that I like. Could be just my ears but all that I have heard I can pick that distinctive sound signature. Since it's a higher frequency issue it's hardly surprising that the natural tube roll off will mitigate it somewhat. But in audio I've never been a fan of 2 wrongs making a right.

If I had to point to a DAC that works for me regardless of the implementation that would be Burr Brown, I've never heard what I would remotely consider a bad one.

Happy New Year to All
Gary

[KeithL]

The short answer to your question is that you are NOT hearing some sort of difference between Class D and Class A/B gear because both the old and new amps are both Class A/B (Class H is a variation of Class A/B).
(We don't think that Class D amps necessarily sound any different - even though many do for various reasons - but  that isn't what's happening here.)
I also doubt you're hearing the difference in the power supplies.

An audio amplifier is made up of two basic parts - the power supply and the amplifier itself.
The XPA Gen3 and DR amplifiers have Class A/B amplifier sections and SMPS (switch mode power supplies).
In contrast, most of what we term "Class D amplifiers" have BOTH a Class D amplifier section AND a switch mode power supply.
(There are even a few that use a Class D amplifier and a transformer-based power supply.... but they've mostly disappeared.)

The job of the power supply is simply to convert the AC line voltage into the voltages the amplifier needs to power it.
The power supply shouldn't have a significant effect on how the amplifier sounds (unless it isn't doing its job properly).
Of course, nothing is perfect - but our new power supply does pretty well everything better than the old transformer-based ones.
(Our amplifier circuitry isn't especially sensitive to power supply variations, so we wouldn't expect a major audible difference; however, if you hear a difference, the new one will be the better one.)

I just want to note a few different things here:

1)
While switch mode power supplies are relatively new technology, they've actually been around for quite a few years, and are pretty well established technology.
(And, yeah, being able to move your amp, without heading for your chiropractor afterwards, does count as a "plus feature" to us.)

2)
We kind of suspect that a lot of people simply EXPECT that an 85 pound amplifier will "sound more solid" than one that weighs half as much - and that this is probably the difference a lot of people think they're hearing.
Some people simply find knowing that they're listening to a thirty pound block of iron and copper reassuring....
There are slight audible differences between different amplifier designs, so, for example, the XPA Gen3 amps sound more like an XPR than an XPA (even though the difference is pretty slight).
However, that's mostly because of the amplifier topology, which is a bit different.
(With the same amplifier modules, we doubt we could hear the difference between the power supplies, and we doubt you would either.)

3)
The terms in your description ("smooth" "curvy" "voluptuous") sound like they describe some sort of euphonic coloration.
(An accurate description of how a perfect amplifier would sound would be something like: "Gee.... is there an amplifier there? I don't hear anything." The proverbial "straight wire with gain".)
Since the XPA Gen3 is a higher-end design, and our design goal is to deliver an amp that's totally neutral and uncolored, it makes sense that an XPA would exhibit less coloration than a BasX amp.
(The BasX amps are quite good, especially when you consider their price, but the XPA Gen3 and DR amps are more neutral and slightly cleaner sounding.)
(Incidentally, from the reviews I saw, the Classe 2200 seems to be considered to also be quite neutral.)

4)
Incidentally, the reason we kept the toroidal transformer in the BasX amps is simply cost.
At the price point and performance level of the BasX amps, and considering the size of the power supply they require, a traditional power supply allowed us to deliver better performance at lower cost.

Dec 28, 2017 22:59:50 GMT -5 emoticon said:

I wanted to hear some thoughts. My first Emo product was the A100 which I used to drive my Atc Scm7 loudspeakers in my living room. I then moved up to the A300 and it was a clear improvement (one of those where a blind a/b test is not needed). Everything sounded sweet and full bodied and as dynamic as one get with a 7 liter cabinet. Much to my wife’s dismay, I hauled my Scm19s from the basement up to the living room. The A300s couldn’t keep up with the scm19s. I am used to my Classe 2200 (if you don’t know this amp, I would recommend reading up on it) driving my scm19s  but the Classe is 85 lbs and is staying in the basement (in a box waiting for a remodel of the man cave). I figured I’ll give the XPA-2 a try. I’ve never liked class D sound and am able to instantly pick out that sound blindly. I’ve owned very expensive class D gear in the past and sold all of them after I heard the Classe. I’ve obviously owned class A/B with the Emos but the SMPS in the XPA range kinda bothered me. I figured it’s almost 2018 and tech does get better. But after living with the XPA for 2 weeks, I feel the sound is edgy and doesn’t have that smooth, curvy, voluptuous sound that the Classe or even the A300 (driving the scm7) has. I am not technically that savvy with amplifier design or electronics, but at a high level I understand that the A300 has a toroidal transformer and the XPA has an SMPS. Is this the difference I am hearing? Is it something else? It’s definitely not lack of power because the dynamics at high volume are there and in fact, I feel the XPA is quite comfortable with the load.

One thing I will try before I send the XPA packing is to drive the SCM7s with it. The source is Oppo Sonica Dac direct to amp - xlr with the XPA and RCA with the A300. Mogami Gold and Blue Jeans - calling this out in case someone accuses me of using fancy cables for tone control..

If you’ve gotten this far, thank you and to make it worth it, please share your thoughts. 

NB: I know the XPA measures well. I wish amps would only be different in power and not sound different. I hope the industry standardizes on an amp and moves on so it’s just a matter of aesthetics and features. Until then, I will have keep playing this stupid game of trying different amps. 

[KeithL]

I absolutely agree.

All Sabre DACs have a distinctive sound - which most people characterize as a slightly forward upper midrange and slightly exaggerated detail (or more than slightly).
However, as with any DAC, how they sound is strongly influenced by the circuitry you use them with.
(In this case, the surrounding circuitry influences both how well they work in general, and how prominent the "Sabre flavor" is in each particular implementation.)

Likewise, I've always found traditional tube power amps to seem to blur or smooth the sound unnaturally (they tend to make the treble "smooth and glossy" and the bass "soft").
While this may be annoying in some situations, and actually pleasing in others, the fact is that it isn't right... it isn't accurate... so I prefer to avoid it.

Dec 29, 2017 10:46:41 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

I have absolutely no doubt that the implementation and the voicing of the DAC has an influence on what it ultimately sounds like. But that said I have yet to hear a Sabre DAC implementation that I like. Could be just my ears but all that I have heard I can pick that distinctive sound signature. Since it's a higher frequency issue it's hardly surprising that the natural tube roll off will mitigate it somewhat. But in audio I've never been a fan of 2 wrongs making a right.

If I had to point to a DAC that works for me regardless of the implementation that would be Burr Brown, I've never heard what I would remotely consider a bad one.

Happy New Year to All
Gary

[emoticon]

Thank you all for the responses. I understand that the power supply, if done right, should not make a difference in sound. So it must be the Class D sound that I have never liked, not the power supply itself. This is the first time I have owned an SMPS driven Class A/B so my first instinct was to blame the power supply.

Re: Tubes - this is not an option for me. I was at some point rolling tubes in preamps and amps so I know how they sound. For the SCM19s, I would need a very beefy tube amp. The ATCs are quite revealing (explains why they are studio monitors) and on top of that, my ears are very sensitive to distortion. I have walked away from countless auditions at hifi dealers simply because I could not stand the distortion and unfortunately I am yet to find speakers that are at or lower than ATC's distortion levels (Wilson Audio comes close, probably the B&W 800s with a million watts driving them). Tubes just don't mate well with the ATCs. Tubes do mate well with my Klipsch Forte II.

Re: The Sabre DAC - The Oppo DAC measures almost perfect. See archimago.blogspot.com/2017/06/measurements-oppo-sonica-dac-ess-sabre.html. Can anyone explain how a DAC that measures so well have a sonic signature? If it can, why can't an amp like the XPA-2 have a sonic signature? Genuine question, I really want to understand.

Re: Speaker placement - I did have the speaker toed in initially and after trial and error ended up with zero toe-in as the relatively best option. This did help with the top end harshness to some extent. So far this is the most promising improvement and it may be that the room is contributing to the rest?

Re: "smooth" "curvy" "voluptuous" - I was being facetious. To put it more clearly, I have found that in general, good Class A/B amps sound higher in resolution than the Class D amps I have heard. To my ears, Class D amps sound like low bit-rate mp3 files compared to Class A/B which sounds like well mastered 24-bit files. Furthermore, Class D is grating to my ears. I am hoping the Hypex NCore I have ordered proves me wrong, but if it doesn't that will be my last attempt at Class D for a very long time.

I doubt this issue will get resolved by rolling off the highs with some form of tone control (tubes or dedicated inline tone control). I think this is more about the sound signature which really should not exist because I have some of most neutral equipment I can find. The sound is a bit grating in the mid-range and to some extent in the top end. The lower end is fine but then my SCM19s only go down till 54Hz or so.

I am still not clear on my next steps. The Oppo DAC is past its return period. I would hate to sell it because its the most resolving DAC I've heard it sounded absolutely wonderful with the A300 driving my SCM7s. Going back to that setup is probably my best option. The SCM19s can go back to the basement in the loving hands of the Classe when the remodel is done (eventually. finding a good contractor who is available here in Boston area is very hard. I will probably have better luck finding alien lifeforms on distant planets). I would have loved to listen to the DAC via the Classe to isolate the issue, but unfortunately that is not practical at this time.

[emoticon]

I don't think the size or weight of the amp influences my perception of sound. But I never know what that subconscious mind is up to. I was actually complaining in another thread that the XPA is too large. As for weight, if it was as heavy as my Classe (80 lbs), I would not have bought the XPA - i might as well haul the Classe up from the basement. I have a fragile back and carrying the ATCs did not do my back any favors.

[garbulky]

Dec 29, 2017 13:55:23 GMT -5 emoticon said:

I don't think the size or weight of the amp influences my perception of sound. But I never know what that subconscious mind is up to. I was actually complaining in another thread that the XPA is too large. As for weight, if it was as heavy as my Classe (80 lbs), I would not have bought the XPA - i might as well haul the Classe up from the basement. I have a fragile back and carrying the ATCs did not do my back any favors.

It may be cheaper to hire a neighborhood kid to haul it up than buy an amp!

[audiobill]

Again, try a good tube amp and save thyself many steps......forget your eyes on spec sheets and just listen.

[emoticon]

Dec 29, 2017 16:54:38 GMT -5 audiobill said:

Again, try a good tube amp and save thyself many steps......forget your eyes on spec sheets and just listen.

No. I can't just listen. I won't waste time or money with gear that does not measure well or has no unbiased measurements published. 

[audiobill]

Ah, grasshopper, many have gone before ye to a life of dissatisfaction..,,and equipment churn....

[novisnick]

Dec 29, 2017 16:59:38 GMT -5 emoticon said:

Dec 29, 2017 16:54:38 GMT -5 audiobill said:

Again, try a good tube amp and save thyself many steps......forget your eyes on spec sheets and just listen.

No. I can't just listen. I won't waste time or money with gear that does not measure well or has no unbiased measurements published. 

I had a woman that said I didn’t measure well but I was the best she ever had!