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Post by emoticon on Dec 29, 2017 20:27:03 GMT -5
No. I can't just listen. I won't waste time or money with gear that does not measure well or has no unbiased measurements published. I had a woman that said I didn’t measure well but I was the best she ever had! Shut it, donkey!  |
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Post by novisnick on Dec 29, 2017 21:37:06 GMT -5
I had a woman that said I didn’t measure well but I was the best she ever had! Shut it, donkey! 😁 |
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Post by rbk123 on Dec 29, 2017 22:07:18 GMT -5
I had a woman that said I didn’t measure well but I was the best she ever had! Shut it, donkey! Mrs. Novis - is that you? |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 30, 2017 15:09:08 GMT -5
Again, try a good tube amp and save thyself many steps......forget your eyes on spec sheets and just listen. No. I can't just listen. I won't waste time or money with gear that does not measure well or has no unbiased measurements published. And yet by picking gear based on measurements you have a DAC that you may well end up not liking the sound of. Measures good (to everyone) but sounds not so good (to you). What we hear is a combination of what is measured and quite likely a lot of things that we haven't invented a measure for as yet. Looking at individual test results, such as it's has good SNR, immeasurable jitter, low distortion, low crosstalk etc. But what if we were able to add them all together, which is after all what we hear, all of it? It's quite possible that the combination of what seems like minuscule differences in the measurements add together to make an audible difference. Realistically THD at 0.0014 (Oppo) compared to 0.0010 (Teac) when combined with IMD at 0.0018 compared to 0.0015 and IMD (swept) 0.0017 compared to 0.0014 etc etc is so small a difference individually as to be inaudible. But what if added together they result in something audible? Or when added to something that can't measure end up as something audible? I did note that author moved the Sabre DAC equiped Sonica on but kept the Burr Brown DAC equiped TEAC. Happy New Year to All Gary |
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Post by gzubeck on Dec 30, 2017 17:30:43 GMT -5
You may not need all that power from the newer amp so the a-300 may be all that you need for now. Also, I would try another dac. I have the schiit bifrost with the ak chip for $400 and I'm very happy with it for the money.
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Post by emoticon on Dec 30, 2017 18:19:28 GMT -5
No. I can't just listen. I won't waste time or money with gear that does not measure well or has no unbiased measurements published. And yet by picking gear based on measurements you have a DAC that you may well end up not liking the sound of. Measures good (to everyone) but sounds not so good (to you). What we hear is a combination of what is measured and quite likely a lot of things that we haven't invented a measure for as yet. Looking at individual test results, such as it's has good SNR, immeasurable jitter, low distortion, low crosstalk etc. But what if we were able to add them all together, which is after all what we hear, all of it? It's quite possible that the combination of what seems like minuscule differences in the measurements add together to make an audible difference. Realistically THD at 0.0014 (Oppo) compared to 0.0010 (Teac) when combined with IMD at 0.0018 compared to 0.0015 and IMD (swept) 0.0017 compared to 0.0014 etc etc is so small a difference individually as to be inaudible. But what if added together they result in something audible? Or when added to something that can't measure end up as something audible? I did note that author moved the Sabre DAC equiped Sonica on but kept the Burr Brown DAC equiped TEAC. Happy New Year to All Gary I understand that good measurements don't always equate to subjective preference; they do however help to eliminate crap. Auditioning different gear takes time and there are far too many "hi-fi" brands out there and I don't have unlimited time. So limiting myself to trying only the equipment that measures well is more optimal. I can read measurements online. I cannot audition gear online. Why anyone would go around saying "just listen" is beyond me. Perhaps they have unlimited time or they buy something and are happy with their first attempt which is great. At the end of the day, this is music reproduction, not the art of music itself. I prefer to leave the art to the musicians and have it translated as closely as possible so the equipment doesn't grossly misrepresent the art. Its never going to 100% accurate because of the hops the music takes - microphones, recording equipment, mastering engineer and his/her equipment etc. but as with any engineering problem (yes, hifi is an engineering problem, not some pseudo-scientific faith-based system), there are trade-offs and one tries to achieve the most optimal results within reason. I've heard this argument before that the human ears are picking up what the instruments can't. It is actually the other way around. Human hearing at its best is quite limited. If you read the measurements of the Oppo DAC, the distortion levels are far below what is audible to human ears. You can sum them up all you want and treat them as a collection, but its still not anywhere near audible levels. Its easy to blame the DAC. If I make the same post on the Oppo forums (is there one?) I am pretty sure folks will blame the Emo amp. No one has blamed my speakers yet. No one even suggested that my room might be a problem which is quite surprising. |
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Post by audiobill on Dec 30, 2017 18:29:26 GMT -5
Your room may be a problem.
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Post by socketman on Dec 30, 2017 18:42:07 GMT -5
And yet by picking gear based on measurements you have a DAC that you may well end up not liking the sound of. Measures good (to everyone) but sounds not so good (to you). What we hear is a combination of what is measured and quite likely a lot of things that we haven't invented a measure for as yet. Looking at individual test results, such as it's has good SNR, immeasurable jitter, low distortion, low crosstalk etc. But what if we were able to add them all together, which is after all what we hear, all of it? It's quite possible that the combination of what seems like minuscule differences in the measurements add together to make an audible difference. Realistically THD at 0.0014 (Oppo) compared to 0.0010 (Teac) when combined with IMD at 0.0018 compared to 0.0015 and IMD (swept) 0.0017 compared to 0.0014 etc etc is so small a difference individually as to be inaudible. But what if added together they result in something audible? Or when added to something that can't measure end up as something audible? I did note that author moved the Sabre DAC equiped Sonica on but kept the Burr Brown DAC equiped TEAC. Happy New Year to All Gary I understand that good measurements don't always equate to subjective preference; they do however help to eliminate crap. Auditioning different gear takes time and there are far too many "hi-fi" brands out there and I don't have unlimited time. So limiting myself to trying only the equipment that measures well is more optimal. I can read measurements online. I cannot audition gear online. Why anyone would go around saying "just listen" is beyond me. Perhaps they have unlimited time or they buy something and are happy with their first attempt which is great. At the end of the day, this is music reproduction, not the art of music itself. I prefer to leave the art to the musicians and have it translated as closely as possible so the equipment doesn't grossly misrepresent the art. Its never going to 100% accurate because of the hops the music takes - microphones, recording equipment, mastering engineer and his/her equipment etc. but as with any engineering problem (yes, hifi is an engineering problem, not some pseudo-scientific faith-based system), there are trade-offs and one tries to achieve the most optimal results within reason. I've heard this argument before that the human ears are picking up what the instruments can't. It is actually the other way around. Human hearing at its best is quite limited. If you read the measurements of the Oppo DAC, the distortion levels are far below what is audible to human ears. You can sum them up all you want and treat them as a collection, but its still not anywhere near audible levels. Its easy to blame the DAC. If I make the same post on the Oppo forums (is there one?) I am pretty sure folks will blame the Emo amp. No one has blamed my speakers yet. No one even suggested that my room might be a problem which is quite surprising. I dont think blame is the correct word. You were wondering what the difference could be and people made suggestions based on your equipment. I dont know how your room could affect 2 different amps differently. There is much discussion on many forums about DAC's and file formats, MQA is under a microscope and there are strong opinions about that as well. This equipment has to interact with other equipment all designed by different people , i would expect it to sound different and too different ears better and or worse. I am also certain that Emotiva amps though good and priced nicely are not the be all end all of amplifiers, they are built to a budget constraint and offer great performance to value ratio. I went from a cheap receiver to a better one and then even better one then to an Emo amp and each move was an upgrade to ME. I am now at the end of my budget and Emo will be the best i can afford and if i dont compare another amp to it i will continue to be happy. Just enjoy the music. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 30, 2017 19:01:33 GMT -5
I've heard this argument before that the human ears are picking up what the instruments can't. It is actually the other way around. Human hearing at its best is quite limited You may have missed it but the main thrust of my post was that maybe we are hearing things that there is no measure for ............... yet. It doesn't matter if the instruments are better than my ears if there is something that I can hear but they can't measure because they aren't designed to measure it. Back to your original post, you pointed out that "the sound is edgy", which is a common complaint of gear with Sabre DAC implementations. Conversely it is not a common complaint for Emo amps. Hence the focus on swapping out the DAC (first) and seeing whether that has a favourable result. After all it's a much simpler test than, say, buying and installing a bunch of acoustic improvements. Not that anyone is saying that a proper acoustic approach isn't necessary, just setting the priorities based on their ease of implementation. Not in any way suggesting that others thing aren't necessary to test, just that my suggestion is to try the DAC swap first. As for measurements in regards to buying equipment, regardless of how great they perform in tests there are some brands that I simply wouldn't even consider. MacIntosh amplification in an example and Klipsch speakers are another. I know how they voice their products which means that I'm not going to like them and they aren't going to change that for me, their faithful customers simply wouldn't tolerate it. OMG, a MacIntosh amp that doesn't sound like a MacIntosh amp, never gunna happen. Bomm jas pointed out several times that he finds the 205 to be not to his taste, but the 95 and 105 were OK. Is that because Oppo have found that their "customers" like the edgy sound and are simply giving them more in the 205? Happy New Year to All Gary |
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Post by RichGuy on Dec 30, 2017 20:13:56 GMT -5
I agree with what others have said that it is probably the Oppo Sonica DAC. I'd recommend you try to get yourself an MHDT NOS tube DAC, I have two of them an MHDT Havana and an MHDT balanced Stockholm. These are just wonderful sounding DAC's the most musical I have heard, warm yet very detailed, I absolutely love their sound and they play along very well with Emotiva gear, gorgeous sound quality. Here's an MHDT Havana  and here's an MHDT balanced Stockholm  |
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Post by emoticon on Dec 30, 2017 21:52:32 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback Gary and socketman. Unfortunately, my Oppo is past its return period. I was debating between the Oppo and the Teac NT-503. In retrospect, the Teac may have been a better buy given it comes with a physical remote control and supports gapless playback over DLNA (the Oppo, strangely, does not). The Teac uses a VERITA AK4490 DAC. I think the Teac also has a proper pre-amp stage versus the Oppo's digital volume control. A while ago, I had to introduce a pre-amp in the middle of a DAC (Linn DS) and the amp to get rid of the harshness; there was a lot of debate about this on the Linn forums but this is a can of worms I didn't want to open but here I go.
I can try the Teac and hopefully get a decent sale of the Oppo on Audiogon.
As an aside, removing toe-in on the speakers has helped quite a bit. This may sound weird, but the system sounds a lot less harsh and is quite good to listen to at certain times of the day. Late last night, I was really enjoying it. Can't figure out a pattern quite yet - it could be that I was not as tired as usual.
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Post by socketman on Dec 30, 2017 22:11:18 GMT -5
Mood has everything to do with music for me. I honestly dont play my 2 channel unless the mood strikes me. I dont think you should loose much on a resale, but there are always those people who want something for nothing so be patient. I listed my 3 channel amp on kijiji for 750 and i got an email offering 400 is replied, keep dreamin and they came back with 550. Some people just dont understand audio or audio nuts, im never in a hurry to lose money. i dont know a whole lot about room treatments but i did build a few DIY panels from SafenSound and for me i liked the difference. I do use REW but too lazy to see what the effect really was. I dont think you can go wrong treating a room especially the first reflections.
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Post by audiobill on Dec 31, 2017 7:37:51 GMT -5
Seriously, try the Emotiva DC-1 dac/preamp or a Schiit Gungnir multibit dac. Each sounds great and can easily be returned.
As to toe-in, point each speaker at a point 4-5 feet BEHIND your listening chair for good results.
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Post by mgbpuff on Dec 31, 2017 8:55:54 GMT -5
I have the OPPO DAC and I love it - I think it sounds fine, but I only use it to stream from Tidal and I use it as a DAC only thru a preamp. Multibit or R-2R is a technological archaic joke and the MHDT stuff is 100% Tiwanese using old (or NOS if you prefer)chips. They brag they have no digital output filter but they use a tube buffer (a filter in practice) makes it sound "warm and cozy". The Havana only does 96khz.
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Post by foggy1956 on Dec 31, 2017 9:24:53 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback Gary and socketman. Unfortunately, my Oppo is past its return period. I was debating between the Oppo and the Teac NT-503. In retrospect, the Teac may have been a better buy given it comes with a physical remote control and supports gapless playback over DLNA (the Oppo, strangely, does not). The Teac uses a VERITA AK4490 DAC. I think the Teac also has a proper pre-amp stage versus the Oppo's digital volume control. A while ago, I had to introduce a pre-amp in the middle of a DAC (Linn DS) and the amp to get rid of the harshness; there was a lot of debate about this on the Linn forums but this is a can of worms I didn't want to open but here I go. I can try the Teac and hopefully get a decent sale of the Oppo on Audiogon. As an aside, removing toe-in on the speakers has helped quite a bit. This may sound weird, but the system sounds a lot less harsh and is quite good to listen to at certain times of the day. Late last night, I was really enjoying it. Can't figure out a pattern quite yet - it could be that I was not as tired as usual. Toward the end of the day, after bourbon has been introduced, the music always sounds better😊 |
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Post by emoticon on Feb 7, 2018 22:50:25 GMT -5
Just wanted to close the loop on this. I ended up returning the Emo and replaced it with NCore mono amps. The problem was not the Sabre DAC.
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Post by teaman on Feb 7, 2018 22:55:13 GMT -5
Just wanted to close the loop on this. I ended up returning the Emo and replaced it with NCore mono amps. The problem was not the Sabre DAC. Glad you got what you wanted. Enjoy your new amps! |
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Post by chicagorspec on Feb 7, 2018 22:57:48 GMT -5
Just wanted to close the loop on this. I ended up returning the Emo and replaced it with NCore mono amps. The problem was not the Sabre DAC. What model NCores did you end up with? In your first post you said you didn’t like Class D amps and could pick the sound out immediately. Are you saying the NCores solved that for you? Congrats on finding something you enjoy. |
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Post by emoticon on Feb 8, 2018 11:15:32 GMT -5
Thank you. Thanks to Mark's suggestion, I got the NC400 kits and built them. These are a lot more compact than the Emos which was important for my living room setup. I can also leave them on without worrying about the power draw. The sound is like no class D amp I have ever heard before. These amps just get out of the way. I am getting clean, well-controlled bass. Overall, a better solution for me albeit at 50% more cost.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Feb 8, 2018 17:44:34 GMT -5
Thank you. Thanks to Mark's suggestion, I got the NC400 kits and built them. These are a lot more compact than the Emos which was important for my living room setup. I can also leave them on without worrying about the power draw. The sound is like no class D amp I have ever heard before. These amps just get out of the way. I am getting clean, well-controlled bass. Overall, a better solution for me albeit at 50% more cost. Pretty amazing amps, aren't they? Yet some continue to bash the whole class of amps based on the past history on Class D in general and their concerns...which I have yet to see any significant number of people who tried the, actually say have come to life. To me, this is like someone judging all automobiles on the Chevy Vega...yeah...some 4 cylinder compacts can be bad. But...some can be awesome. When one is awesome, it should not be lumped in with all the rest by default. Mark |
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