Best way to get music off a MacBook Pro?

[Boomzilla]

Using my spare MacBook Pro laptop computer (sourced from a yard sale) as my music server, I find some limitations in getting the music off the server and to the DAC. The obvious routes are:

1. USB - Although this is obvious and easy, my ears say that it isn't all that good sounding (at least without external reclockers between the MBP and the DAC).

2. Headphone Jack (analog) - The downside to this is that the MBP's internal DAC is the default converter, and there's no way around it.

3. Headphone Jack (optical) - This is the best I've found so far - but to my ears, it still doesn't sound as good as coaxial...

4. Bluetooth Streaming - The negative, of course, is that you also need a DAC with bluetooth capability, and (unless I'm mistaken) the bluetooth output is analog only, meaning that the MBP's two-cent DAC is the default converter.

5. Ethernet Streaming (via DLNA) - Not only do you need a DLNA-capable DAC on the line, but also this just doesn't sound all that great.

6. Wireless Streaming (to an Airport Express, for example) - Again, I'm unsure, but I think that such streaming is of analog signal only, not digital and relies on the MBP's DAC for conversion.

So my question is "Is there any Thunderbolt device that takes a DIGITAL stream from the MBP & offers a coaxial digital output?

If not, which of the six options above offers the best sound quality?

Thanks - Boomzilla

[johnnyd70]

Jan 1, 2018 5:26:09 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Using my spare MacBook Pro laptop computer (sourced from a yard sale) as my music server, I find some limitations in getting the music off the server and to the DAC. The obvious routes are:

1. USB - Although this is obvious and easy, my ears say that it isn't all that good sounding (at least without external reclockers between the MBP and the DAC).

2. Headphone Jack (analog) - The downside to this is that the MBP's internal DAC is the default converter, and there's no way around it.

3. Headphone Jack (optical) - This is the best I've found so far - but to my ears, it still doesn't sound as good as coaxial...

4. Bluetooth Streaming - The negative, of course, is that you also need a DAC with bluetooth capability, and (unless I'm mistaken) the bluetooth output is analog only, meaning that the MBP's two-cent DAC is the default converter.

5. Ethernet Streaming (via DLNA) - Not only do you need a DLNA-capable DAC on the line, but also this just doesn't sound all that great.

6. Wireless Streaming (to an Airport Express, for example) - Again, I'm unsure, but I think that such streaming is of analog signal only, not digital and relies on the MBP's DAC for conversion.

So my question is "Is there any Thunderbolt device that takes a DIGITAL stream from the MBP & offers a coaxial digital output?

If not, which of the six options above offers the best sound quality?

Thanks -

I stream from an IMac to airport express via WiFi, then optical out from airport express to the preamp.  The digital stream is intact to the the preamp end-to end. The limitation here is that the maximum resolution is 16/44.1.  Higher resolutions are downsampled on the way out of the iMac.  Another option I have is HDMI out of a MBP to the preamp for higher sample rate files. 

[brubacca]

Based on all my configurations over the years now... I'd say DLNA. Minimserver is really nice. Get a Sonore MicroRendu and a Schiit Eitr. Now you have a ethernet to coax transport. This can be used with any DAC. Use the Lumin App on iPad or Android to control. Really sounds amazing. As an alternate try a Sotm SMS-200. This all will cost under $1k

If you don"t want to jump in that far initially just get the Eitr and it will give you coax out of you Mac (if it works with Mac, I'm not sure). Less than $200 delivered.

[wilburthegoose]

Roon

[Soup]

Jan 1, 2018 8:00:21 GMT -5 brubacca said:

Based on all my configurations over the years now... I'd say DLNA. Minimserver is really nice. Get a Sonore MicroRendu and a Schiit Eitr. Now you have a ethernet to coax transport. This can be used with any DAC. Use the Lumin App on iPad or Android to control. Really sounds amazing. As an alternate try a Sotm SMS-200. This all will cost under $1k

If you don"t want to jump in that far initially just get the Eitr and it will give you coax out of you Mac (if it works with Mac, I'm not sure). Less than $200 delivered.

DLNA


I agree with Brubacca. Sonore MicroRendu is awesome!

[brubacca]

Boom,

Possibly Soup is still willing to part with his MicroRendu?

Based on your like of the Sabre Chip in the oppo and my personal like of the Lumin app, Possibly a Lumin D1 @ $2,000 might also be a possibility.

[jackfish]

For me, MacBook Air with ripped CDs running iTunes and BitPerfect through USB into a Schiit Bifrost sounds good enough; although my ears running Phonak hearing aids are less than Golden.

[Boomzilla]

OK - LOTS of variation in these replies. I do note that the USB option is leading in the poll, but is that because of its convenience or because of its sound quality?

I've had some great results from DLNA streaming, but also some not-so-great ones. Is the variability due to the DLNA or to other factors? I'd think that if at least some tracks sounded excellent via DLNA, then it's "proof of concept" for the streaming method and that anything sounding less good was caused by either a poor original recording or else a poor rip. Is this sound logic, or have I overlooked something? DLNA is the most convenient method for my streaming, but I don't want to give up quality for convenience.

Thanks again - Boom

[novisnick]

Jan 1, 2018 12:21:34 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

OK - LOTS of variation in these replies. I do note that the USB option is leading in the poll, but is that because of its convenience or because of its sound quality?

I've had some great results from DLNA streaming, but also some not-so-great ones. Is the variability due to the DLNA or to other factors? I'd think that if at least some tracks sounded excellent via DLNA, then it's "proof of concept" for the streaming method and that anything sounding less good was caused by either a poor original recording or else a poor rip. Is this sound logic, or have I overlooked something? DLNA is the most convenient method for my streaming, but I don't want to give up quality for convenience.

Thanks again - Boom

I don’t understand why some think that USB has inferior SQ, if it were so poor NO qualit piece of gear would incorporate it. I for one haven’t heard this loss of SQ and It does play well with others. It’ll also carry the bits, bites, and data you want it to, IMHO.
Im enjoying the music,,,,🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼

[brubacca]

USB can be done well. It needs to isolate the crappy 5v from the source (pc) and generate its own clean 5v. This is why Eitr is a great solution, it filters/blocks the 5v coming from the input end and generates its own power from the linear wall wart. Its own port is powered not by the source, but by its own power supply.

I also think that going the extra step of using a dedicated product helps the sound. A Mac or PC has other non audio priorities. Dedicated little devices (Sonore / Sotm) are computers at heart but dedicated to audio. I could also see a rapsberry pi with volumio having a chance to sound good, but I don't like how the ethernet and usb share the same bus.

[pknaz]

I'd be curios if you could statistically tell a significant (repeatable) difference in a DBT between any of the digital transports using the same DAC. My wager would be that you couldn't. Knowing this, you could influence your confirmation bias in whichever direction would provide the least path toward resistance

[pknaz]

Ever wonder what the signal path in a recording studio looks like?

[Soup]

Jan 1, 2018 14:48:34 GMT -5 pknaz said:

Ever wonder what the signal path in a recording studio looks like?

No.

[Soup]

Jan 1, 2018 14:45:05 GMT -5 pknaz said:

I'd be curios if you could statistically tell a significant (repeatable) difference in a DBT between any of the digital transports using the same DAC. My wager would be that you couldn't. Knowing this, you could influence your confirmation bias in whichever direction would provide the least path toward resistance

I'll take that bet anytime  

[Gary Cook]

To clear up some stuff;
Bluetooth is digital but in base form lacks bandwidth and hence is lossy.
Streaming is digital and can be bit perfect depending on the hardware and software.
Apple streaming (iTunes, Music etc) is lossless at CD quality.

To my ears the quality of the DAC and its implementation make more of a difference to the sound than how I get the 1's and 0's into the DAC. For example an Ego utilising USB from the MacMini sounds great. Simply because it's designed and spec'd to maximise the USB connection, eliminate any clocking issues, pre amp it and pass it on with minimal interference. It utilises a digitally controlled resister ladder (ie; analogue) volume control, so no losses there either. Not all DAC's with USB inputs are so equiped and hence poo pooing all USB connections is not correct.

Happy New Year to All
Gary

[Boomzilla]

Well, some recordings seem to have some midrange distortion to them. garbulky has speculated that it's inherent in my room, and that $5K of room treatments would fix it right up. He could be right; or not...

At first, I posited that it might be an artifact of the DLNA streaming. So I moved the server to the living room and hooked it up via TOSLINK. About half the "midrange overload" went away, but the other half is still there. So this might be (starting from the front of the chain): A bad rip? A DAC problem (same DAC with both DLNA and TOSLINK)? A room problem?

I'd rule out speakers because the issue has persisted through different ones. I'd also rule out electronics distortion because the problem has persisted through multiple amplification chains.

The easiest test may be to find the worst-sounding of the CDs, play the CD, and then compare it to the rip of the same disc. Distortion from the source CD stays? Probably the recording, the room, or the rip. Distortion goes away when playing the source CD? It's the rip.

So does the interface matter in the mythical DBT? I wouldn't know. Soup is confident he could hear the diff. I think I might be able to, but it might take some training in what to listen for. OTOH, if this midrange distortion is an artifact of the digital transmission method, then I could hear it in my sleep - no problem.

Yet another A/B option might be to take the Oppo out of the signal path completely and to plug the analog output of the MacBook directly into the integrated amp. Distortion gone? It's the Oppo and its bright-sounding Sabre DACs!

[pknaz]

Jan 1, 2018 15:49:26 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Well, some recordings seem to have some midrange distortion to them. garbulky has speculated that it's inherent in my room, and that $5K of room treatments would fix it right up. He could be right; or not...

I'd tend to agree, if you're working from an untreated room, you're putting yourself at a HUGE disadvantage, even slight treatments.  You definitely don't need to spend $5k on good treatments for first and second reflection points at the very least.  They can even be very compliant with WAF.

At first, I posited that it might be an artifact of the DLNA streaming. So I moved the server to the living room and hooked it up via TOSLINK. About half the "midrange overload" went away, but the other half is still there. So this might be (starting from the front of the chain): A bad rip? A DAC problem (same DAC with both DLNA and TOSLINK)? A room problem?

Could this be attributed to confirmation bias?

I'd rule out speakers because the issue has persisted through different ones. I'd also rule out electronics distortion because the problem has persisted through multiple amplification chains.

Room characteristics would explain this very easily.

The easiest test may be to find the worst-sounding of the CDs, play the CD, and then compare it to the rip of the same disc. Distortion from the source CD stays? Probably the recording, the room, or the rip. Distortion goes away when playing the source CD? It's the rip.

It is "possible" to hear a "bad" rip, if you're doing a transcode from one format to another.  Are you using either Apple Lossless or some other lossless format?

So does the interface matter in the mythical DBT? I wouldn't know. Soup is confident he could hear the diff. I think I might be able to, but it might take some training in what to listen for. OTOH, if this midrange distortion is an artifact of the digital transmission method, then I could hear it in my sleep - no problem.

Grab some thick blankets or comforters and hang them in the first and second reflection points.  Have you tested something like this? (Depending on the frequency range you're defining as midrange, you might need to double up on the thickness of the blankets/conforters. You'll want at least 2"-3" thickness for less than 1khz.

Yet another A/B option might be to take the Oppo out of the signal path completely and to plug the analog output of the MacBook directly into the integrated amp. Distortion gone? It's the Oppo and its bright-sounding Sabre DACs!

Computers (even Macs) are notorious for having VERY noisy, dirty, and rather $h1ty analogue outputs, I'd definitely not rely on any tests using this method.

[Gary Cook]

Of the 3 digital connections it's generally accepted that Toslink is the worst for jitter, over short distances. Coax is better over short distances, but worse over longer distances. To quote Keith, "a good asynchronous USB connection, where the DAC controls the clock, should have jitter that's lowest of the three".

I agree with pknaz, computer built in DAC's are in general not so good. But if you can isolate it from the other differences, it maybe worthwhile to listen if you can hear the same distortion. If it's still there then it's plainly not the Oppo DAC and resides in the source.

Happy New Year to All
Gary

[Boomzilla]

My room has treatment panels:

Four behind the speakers
Two behind the listening position
Two on the side-wall first reflection points

i tried an additional $1K of panels and bass traps (two on the ceiling, second reflection points, and corners) with no apparent improvement.

Much of my music library was originally in iTunes and initially ripped to ALE format (Apple Lossless Encoding). When I discovered that uncompressed WAV files sounded significantly better, I converted all the ALE files to WAV. I've been ripping directly to WAV using jRiver since.

Despite their (deserved) poor reputation, I connected the analog headphone jack of my MacBook Pro directly to the line-level inputs of my Yamaha integrated tonight. The music doesn't have the dynamics of the Oppo, but about another 25% of the remaining midrange "overload distortion" is now gone. This means that the cause of said distortion is either the rip / conversion, the Oppo itself, or the room itself.

My next "experiment" will be to play the original CD in another CD player (not the Oppo), then the rip from jRiver through the same CD player. If the original CD is clean-sounding on the alternate disc player, then the problem is either the rip or the Oppo). I may need to re-rip that portion of my library that sounds troublesome.

If the substitute CD player sounds clean, then I'll play the same disc in the Oppo. Distortion? Time to return the Oppo - I got a defect!

If the substitute CD player sounds no better than the Oppo when playing the source CD, then it's fair to assume that garbulky has been exactly right all along, and i need more (LOTS more) room treatment.

[pknaz]

Do you have REW and are you familiar with using it?