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Post by Casey Leedom on Feb 9, 2018 12:09:58 GMT -5
... Personally, I prefer sharing actual files from a NAS or other network device rather than "DLNA streaming". (And, yes, I mean put the files in a folder, share that folder, and tell the player program to play the file from the shared network drive letter.) To be honest, it's a lot fussier to set up and get working, but it seems a lot more deterministic. (A file share will NEVER resample, or interpolate anything, or compromise; it's all or nothing; either your file will arrive exactly as it left, or the share will fail outright.) , you should take a look at Roon. It's a pretty nice architecture. The old Squeeze Server/Client architecture works well too, but is only supported via volunteer efforts since Logitech decided to dump their investment in Slim Devices. Casey |
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Post by frisco on Feb 9, 2018 12:11:27 GMT -5
There are at least two raspberry pi hats that you can purchase that will give you other output options for the raspberry pi, the hifiberry Digi ( optical and rca digital) and Allo DigiOne ( bnc and rca)
they both claim to improve sq over usb
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Post by creimes on Feb 9, 2018 12:15:22 GMT -5
Just grab the Anthem STR Preamplifier and add the Rasberry PI   |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 9, 2018 12:40:08 GMT -5
Having tested them using my ears side by side, don't waste your time with a Raspberry Pi. Spend a little money on one of the Sonore streaming products. Your ears will thank you for that.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Feb 9, 2018 12:47:37 GMT -5
There are at least two raspberry pi hats that you can purchase that will give you other output options for the raspberry pi, the hifiberry Digi ( optical and rca digital) and Allo DigiOne ( bnc and rca) they both claim to improve sq over usb Which is mostly specious. It's digital data. The only real issue is whether the DAC Input supports Asynchronous Clock Resampling with it's own internal clocks. Casey |
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Post by brutiarti on Feb 9, 2018 16:18:37 GMT -5
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 9, 2018 16:28:25 GMT -5
I have looked - briefly - at Roon. My problem with Roon is simply that it does a bunch of stuff I'm not interested in... and there is significant complexity involved in "getting it to work and keeping it working". (Lots of people like all that "deep content" - but personally I rarely even read CD jacket folders.) I do know several people who seem quite pleased with what Roon offers overall. I actually had a "Squeezebox setup" back in the day. I had a computer set up as a server, two Squeezebox Touch units, and two original Squeezebox clients. It worked fine, but even the Squeezebox Touch units were limited to 24/96k (and I believe the originals topped out at 44k or 48k). I also found it... disquieting... that the server supported some formats, and not others, while still others would be converted on the fly. I also seem to recall "updating the library" to be somewhat slow when you had lots of files. In short, it was "just a little more work than simply putting the files on a disc and playing them" - but I didn't value the extras that it provided in return. I think that where I differ from many people is in the commitment I am NOT willing to make to an architecture or an ecosystem. I have a very long background in computers - going back as far as when DOS was the current operating system. As a result, I'm used to thinking of files as files... and considering the structure many systems overlay on them as "extra baggage". For example, when I want to play Dark Side Of The Moon, I find it perfectly natural to click on the WORDS "Dark Side Of The Moon" in a file list... Or to right-click on that title and then click on "Play All". And I find having to hunt around for a picture of the album cover to be an unnecessary complication. As I mentioned in another post, I store all my albums in FLAC format, in folders on a drive. So, for example, I have a folder named "LOSSLESS MUSIC"; inside that there is a folder named "Pink Floyd"; inside that one named "Dark Side Of The Moon (2003 EMI)"; and inside that a file named "money.flac". I can play that one file, or the entire album folder, in jRiver, or in Foobar2000, or in Volumio in my Raspberry Pi, or on any one of a bunch of other programs, without having to import anything, rebuild any libraries, or enter any tags. The physical structure IS the logical structure; so, to add an album, I can just copy the files into the appropriate folder. I have no interest whatsoever in sorting them by genre, or year of publication, or musician.... And, other than when I've added or deleted albums, I've NEVER had to sort, update, rebuild, re-index, or otherwise alter the same structure I started with fifteen years ago. I don't really use tags for anything, but the CD ripper I use (dBPowerAmp) creates those automatically anyway - in case I do decide to use them someday. (Tag&Rename would also cheerfully embed tags in all of the files based on their file and folder names anyway.) I guess, underneath it all, I still really feel like I'm playing separate CDs...... Except that, now, I can pick the one I want to listen to off a list, so I don't have to find the plastic any more. (And I can make playlists - which are really just another name for a "Mix CD".) Now I just open my web browser, click the bookmark for Volumio. Then I click on "Browse" then "USB" then "Hard Drive" then "Lossless Music" then "Pink Floyd" then "Dark Side of the Moon (EMI 2003)" then "Clear And Play" (or "Add to Queue"). To me it seems perfectly logical and simple to do it that way.... everything is where I expect it to be, and nobody is asking me to learn how they think about how things should be organized. However, all the other extra stuff is just... well... extra stuff that I would never get around to setting up. When it comes to some sorts of equipment I like fancy toys... But, when it comes to music, I just want to push the button and have it play.... and I DON'T want to see a message telling me that some client needs updating, or that I need to re-index my library, or enter my user ID.... Obviously, we all have different needs and priorities.... ... Personally, I prefer sharing actual files from a NAS or other network device rather than "DLNA streaming". (And, yes, I mean put the files in a folder, share that folder, and tell the player program to play the file from the shared network drive letter.) To be honest, it's a lot fussier to set up and get working, but it seems a lot more deterministic. (A file share will NEVER resample, or interpolate anything, or compromise; it's all or nothing; either your file will arrive exactly as it left, or the share will fail outright.) , you should take a look at Roon. It's a pretty nice architecture. The old Squeeze Server/Client architecture works well too, but is only supported via volunteer efforts since Logitech decided to dump their investment in Slim Devices. Casey |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Feb 9, 2018 16:38:58 GMT -5
Yep, all these methods work. Direct attach Disk, Direct attached Computer/Disk, Network Attached Storage, Client/Server models of one sort or another, etc. And with the advent of small single-board computers like the Raspberry Pi, many of these are simple, easy, and cheap. Thus, getting back to Boomzilla's original post, I think that it's probably overly constraining his potential DAC choices to say that it must support Ethernet DNLA Streaming. In a similar vein, I've asked for the RMC-1 to natively support streaming so I don't have to have any other boxes behind the audio "rack" (a Mission-style Coffee Table in my case), but if the best I've got is the RMC-1's USB Input, I'll just slap a Raspberry Pi running RoPieee behind and call it a day. Casey |
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Post by DYohn on Feb 9, 2018 17:16:48 GMT -5
re: "Complexity" with Roon. Interestingly, that is one of the things I like most about it: there is NO complexity. You need do nothing to get it working and to keep it working once it's installed, unlike my previous LMS environment which I found needed constant attention, tweaking and corrections. I installed Roon Server on my music server Linux PC and a control app on another PC on the network, told the server what folders to monitor for new content, and that's literally it. It handles all music format including iTunes and all the high res formats. As long as there is at least one Roon Ready players on the network, the server finds them and you can play content to them. It's the easiest to use system I've tried so far. I seldom use any of the metadata capabilities, by the way, I just listen to my music. Yes, it is more expensive than other solutions, but I believe in paying people for their work. The lifetime subscription becomes pretty cheap if you amortize it over your expected life of listening to music.
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Post by kybourbon on Feb 9, 2018 17:51:14 GMT -5
re: "Complexity" with Roon. Interestingly, that is one of the things I like most about it: there is NO complexity. You need do nothing to get it working and to keep it working once it's installed, unlike my previous LMS environment which I found needed constant attention, tweaking and corrections. I installed Roon Server on my music server Linux PC and a control app on another PC on the network, told the server what folders to monitor for new content, and that's literally it. It handles all music format including iTunes and all the high res formats. As long as there is at least one Roon Ready players on the network, the server finds them and you can play content to them. It's the easiest to use system I've tried so far. I seldom use any of the metadata capabilities, by the way, I just listen to my music. Yes, it is more expensive than other solutions, but I believe in paying people for their work. The lifetime subscription becomes pretty cheap if you amortize it over your expected life of listening to music. Totally agree. I am brand new (as of this week) to Roon. Very easy to use. Try managing thousands of songs with something else. Much much more laborious. |
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Post by KeithL on Feb 9, 2018 17:59:54 GMT -5
I'd have to say that I find many of the claims made about various digital audio sources and widgets to be somewhat confusing (in terms of making sense). The digital audio that comes out of a USB output is packetized..... which means that it is inherently "jittery" (although saying that is sort of like saying "gravel is lumpy"). This used to be a problem with old-style "non-asynch" USB inputs, which had to try to re-construct the original clock by "extracting" it from that signal. (In fact, with those older style circuits, it's perfectly reasonable that making the lumps a bit more consistent in certain ways might enable them to work a little bit better.) However, modern asynch USB input circuits simply discard the original clock, and replace it with a high quality locally generated clock. Therefore, if you have an asynch USB input, and it is working well, the DATA signal quality of the USB source simply no longer matters. If you are using a USB-powered DAC, like a DragonFly, or one of our Ego DACs, then the USB sending device is also the power supply for the DAC. In that case, depending on the design of the DAC itself, having a USB output that is also able to act as a good quality power source to power the DAC could indeed be important. However, most AC-line-powered DACs (like our DC-1 or the USB Stream input on the XMC-1) do not get their power from the source device. And, while it's also possible that a source device with a very noisy ground could introduce noise into the ground on the DAC, this rarely if ever actually happens with AC-powered DACs either. (I've heard it with a few USB-powered DACs, in which case it tends to be audibly pretty obvious, but I've never personally heard it with a line powered DAC.) In my experience, I have never seen (or heard) a Coax S/PDIF connection that could out-perform a high-quality asynch USB input. Although it's certainly possible that a good quality Coax S/PDIF connection could out-perform a POOR quality asynch USB input. And some older, non-asynch, USB inputs were downright awful..... and could be outperformed by many of the alternatives. Therefore, while I can't rule out that certain devices, under certain conditions, might actually make a difference.... I am extremely dubious of the vast majority of them. Therefore, to be extremely blunt...... take ALL of the claims with the proverbial grain of salt (positive expectations can be a dangerous - and expensive - thing).
- Some of them may actually work. - Some of them may work, but only for certain people, in certain systems, where certain problems are present. (So the fact that they worked great for someone else does NOT mean they'll work for you.) - Some of them may do nothing at all. - Some of them may actually make things worse instead of better. (Beware of hearing a tiny difference, which might be better or worse, and letting someone else convince you that "different means better". Sometimes "different is worse" and sometimes "different is just different".)(Just remember that nobody ever said: "Our expensive little product does nothing useful at all - but we'd like you to buy it anyway.") There are at least two raspberry pi hats that you can purchase that will give you other output options for the raspberry pi, the hifiberry Digi ( optical and rca digital) and Allo DigiOne ( bnc and rca) they both claim to improve sq over usb |
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Post by KeithL on Feb 9, 2018 18:19:03 GMT -5
That's one of those ways in which our perceptions clearly differ...... I have several thousand songs on my "server drive"..... and I don't manage them at all. When I want to play an album, I right click on it, and say "Play". When I want to add a new album, I create a folder with the appropriate name, and drop the song files into it. Nothing has to be monitored or updated because there is no central index... it's all simply hierarchical folders. If I want to see which Pink Floyd albums I have I just look and see what folders are inside the Pink Floyd folder. I don't have any specific apps at all.... At the moment I'm using Volumio on a Raspberry Pi.... so I can control it from any web browser, on any platform, anywhere on my network (all I need is its IP address). Tomorrow I may plug that drive into my Windows computer and use FooBar2000 instead. As for cost...... I don't think Roon is especially expensive....... Although I might feel differently if I were to stop using it next year because something better came along. (As I've said, I've heard mostly good things about Roon....... ) I assume Roon clearly labels what you're selecting (so I won't accidentally play a lossy-compressed iTunes file when I intended to play the high-res version). (I keep my few lossy files in a separate folder from my lossless files - to minimize errors  ) In general, where our points of view are the most different is that I'm what, in computer terms, would be called "data centric". My "system" is a drive full of music. It worked in Windows 3.1, and Windows XP, and Windows 7, and now Windows 10.... and Linux. And it worked with my Squeezebox system, and now with Foobar2000, and with Volumio. And, for that matter, it would work with any "system" that can read a file off a disc. And I won't have to buy (or learn) anything new if I have a new favorite player program next year. All of that other stuff is "just how I happen to be accessing my drive full of music at the moment". I'm just not interested in "getting involved in any system" beyond that. But, again, that's me.... As far as "central management systems", Roon seems to be the current favorite for lots of people. On a side note, I've also found that different people have very different perceptions of what is and is not complex. For example, many younger folks seem to find icons to be "less complex" than file names. However, as someone who was raised when computers were also evolving, I happen to know that the actual bits stored on the disc are stored with file names and numerical pointers. So, when you understand what's going on inside, typing "firefox" is SIMPLER than clicking on the icon...... Because, when you click on the icon, the computer has to go through an extra step, look up the name that goes with that icon, and then run it. (There are also a lot more things that can go wrong when you click that icon due to all that added complexity...) The icon SEEMS less complex, but that's really an illusion... in reality Windows is a lot more complex than DOS... and DOS is still basically still there underneath. (So, all of your music really is in fact files, stored in folders, on a disc. Roon is adding a lot of complexity in the interest of - successfully - creating the ILLUSION of simplicity.) This always bugs me at some aesthetic level. re: "Complexity" with Roon. Interestingly, that is one of the things I like most about it: there is NO complexity. You need do nothing to get it working and to keep it working once it's installed, unlike my previous LMS environment which I found needed constant attention, tweaking and corrections. I installed Roon Server on my music server Linux PC and a control app on another PC on the network, told the server what folders to monitor for new content, and that's literally it. It handles all music format including iTunes and all the high res formats. As long as there is at least one Roon Ready players on the network, the server finds them and you can play content to them. It's the easiest to use system I've tried so far. I seldom use any of the metadata capabilities, by the way, I just listen to my music. Yes, it is more expensive than other solutions, but I believe in paying people for their work. The lifetime subscription becomes pretty cheap if you amortize it over your expected life of listening to music. Totally agree. I am brand new (as of this week) to Roon. Very easy to use. Try managing thousands of songs with something else. Much much more laborious. |
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Post by mountain on Feb 9, 2018 18:23:23 GMT -5
TEAC has partnered with MQA, I imagine they will come out with updated models soon including MQA, just an fyi. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 9, 2018 20:13:36 GMT -5
Thanks for the tutorial on data, Mr. Levkoff. I learned some things (and plan to try them to see if they work in MY system).
Ignoring, for the moment the various streamers and other "third-party" devices intended to select & serve data, the assumption I'm making from reading your information is that the server software would have to reside close (physically) to the DAC?
For example, I have jRiver installed on a semi-functional laptop (screen doesn't work). I really don't want the laptop in my living room. My solution, till now, has been to leave the laptop and the USB HDD (media storage) tucked away out of sight, out of mind. I stream to the Oppo in the living room via DLNA over Ethernet. This allows me to use a living room WiFi station to connect my iPad (running jRemote software) to both the Oppo and the server. Works fine.
But as I understand you guys, were I to put another device in the living room (between the Oppo and the Server, say), I could use the "other device's software" to pick music rather than using jRiver? Other than added complexity and a new device to buy & master, what would be the advantage?
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Post by Casey Leedom on Feb 9, 2018 20:36:35 GMT -5
Nope. The files can be as far away as you want them to be if you use either a Network Attached Storage (exported Network File System) or a Client/Server-based solution (Roon, Squeeze, etc.). Your files only need to be physically next to your DAC if you use a Direct Attached Disk/Array.
Casey
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Post by DYohn on Feb 9, 2018 21:28:11 GMT -5
Keith, you sound like the perfect candidate for Roon. It would make sense out of you drives full of data. You should download the free trial and try it. What hav3 you got to lose, except maybe your skepticism?
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Post by DYohn on Feb 9, 2018 21:30:21 GMT -5
Boomzilla, “close to the DAC” would mean somewhere on the same local network. Not physically close. And I say again you want a player, not a DAC, for streaming.
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Post by kybourbon on Feb 9, 2018 23:01:19 GMT -5
I agree. The best thing about roon is that it combines all your data and the Tidal media in 1 place with a great interface and excellent sound quality. Really a lot to like except the price (which I think is worth it)
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 10, 2018 1:21:27 GMT -5
I looked at the Roon site at y'all's suggestion.
Since Roon requires its own metadata file, I fail to see any advantage over jRiver, that I have already paid for and learned to use. Essentially, Roon seems like nothing but an interface for organizing and searching my library. Why should I bother with it?
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Post by kybourbon on Feb 10, 2018 1:58:11 GMT -5
I looked at the Roon site at y'all's suggestion. Since Roon requires its own metadata file, I fail to see any advantage over jRiver, that I have already paid for and learned to use. Essentially, Roon seems like nothing but an interface for organizing and searching my library. Why should I bother with it? I have J.River as well. I also have Kodi. For strictly audiophile music there is no comparison... Roon wins. Sounds just as good if not better, looks better, better metadata, and allows seamless integration of Tidal. Why don't you download it and try it out for free to test it out? What's the downside? |
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